Buying a share

[Stedders]

Hi,

I've been reading this forum lurking in the background for some time and have picked up some fantastic hints and tips from the wealth of information discussed.

However, I have a question which I can't find answered from a search. I am looking at buying a share in a plane but have no idea what sort of things to look for when seeing a prospective buy. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for the help,

Stedders

[iainpoll]

In the complete absence of any intelligent thoughts of my own in this matter, I await Flyingforfuns reply with baited breath!:D :D :D ;)

[Skylark4]

Apart from the obvious regarding the cost and choice of aircraft, the location of the home airfield relative to your residence is significant as is the `ambience` of the airfield. You do not want there to be arguments about the length of the grass or the hours of operation.
The main criteria though is to have a `happy` group which is viable and well run. You probably need a `first among equals` who controls and organises because that`s what he does best and he enjoys it and there should be no bickering about who did what and who didn`t. If there is a quick turnover of members there is probably a reason.

Mike W.

[Keef]

Skylark4's points are spot on.

There was a thread on this a while ago. There are some items that I'd say are mandatory - like "Will I get on with the other members of this group? Do I want them flying "my" aeroplane?"

Are the financials "right"? I've seen groups that were really "flying clubs" where the owner made good money and the others subsidised him. If all members aren't totally equal, I'd walk away.

Is the aircraft the type you want to fly? If you're a local area bimbler, don't buy into a long-range tourer or an aerobatic mount just because that's all there is in your area.

Some parts of the world have lots of groups, and shares in the "right" aircraft are easy to come by. Others are very sparse.

DON'T try to form your own group without doing your homework thoroughly - there are many pitfalls!

But if all works well, you get to fly a nicer aeroplane that anything in the local clubs, and for a lot less.

Going rates vary depending on type, but I'm in a group of six on an Arrow III, £100 a month each, £65 an hour wet, and occasional top-ups for nasties like FM immunity and top overhauls.

The more hours you fly, the more you save compared with hiring club aircraft.

There are many more considerations (Private Cat or Public Transport; learning on the group aircraft, group rules...) It goes on for ever!

[finfly1]

Having done it, I would say it is a little like a marriage. It can be beyond your wildest dreams, or worst nightmare, depending on the others involved. Such issues as eating in the plane, scheduling glitches, liability insurance issues, apportionment of fixed expenses (equally or proportional to use during a base period) all should be addressed, understood, agreed to and hopefully signed before entering into the arrangement.

I wish that I could supply a really good link, but I remember that some popular flying magazines have dealt with this subject in recent past, and have provided sample contracts which were designed to cover most of the problems encountered in these types of arrangements.

Best of luck with it.

[bertiethebadger]

It may also be useful to check the finances & look through the booking sheets. This will give you a good idea of real availability.

Don't forget to check hours etc so that you know if you're buying into an group that is going to have a £10K bill for a new engine soon. Some groups build up funds from hourly costs to cover this, others just stump up the cash at the time.

And, as everyone has mentioned, be an equal.

[walkingthewalk]

There is a link to group ownership information on AOPA but I can't remember exactly what it is. I know that the links page
at http://www.flyfaraway.net/links.html has got it.

I would also emphasize that the "cheap hourly rate" is only achievable if you fly enough hours to compensate for your fixed costs such as aircraft insurance, maintenance, monthly sub etc.

Little niggles can occur with the group that may not have any major niggles, e.g: One person flies the aircraft significantly more then the rest. What do you do if the wear+tear+maintenance costs are increased by this one individual ?
What if you are constantly hassled for aircraft availability by one individual when it is your turn to fly for a whole week but you have not made up your mind which day as yet ?
I am not asking for answers, just stating that you need to be able to resolve subtle matters such as this.

[FlyingForFun]

Iain, I'd hate to disapoint. :)

But actually, others have already mentioned the main points.

I'll try to summarise, and probably end up adding in a few new thoughts of my own along the way. There are two areas you need to consider: those relating to the aircraft (which would be exactly the same whether you were buying outright or buying a share), and those relating to the group.

So, for the aircraft itself, first of all find an appropriate type:


What category of aircraft do you want? Touring? Local flying? Aerobatics? Do you prefer tail-wheels, or do you prefer sticks over yokes, or any other personal preferences? Do you need an IMC-capable aircraft?
How much can you afford to pay per hour?
If you're looking at an older aircraft, would you mind if the aircraft was being repaired fairly frequently? (If it's a PFA aircraft, you might enjoy getting involved in the repair work, which can be a bonus.)


The next task is to find an aircraft


Is the price right?
Is the paperwork up to date?
Is the aircraft in the condition you'd expect for the price? If you're not happy to make the decision yourself, pay a licensed mechanic to look over the aircraft and log-books for you.
Once you're happy with the general airworthiness of the aircraft, go for a test-flight. Check the aircraft is rigged properly, doesn't try to fly off in one direction or anything strange like that, doesn't do anything nasty at the stall or at low speeds. Don't expect to be allowed to land the aircraft, but watch how difficult the owner finds it to land. Most importantly, though - do you enjoy flying it?


For a group aircraft, the additional considerations are probably more important than the aircraft itself. Here's a list of the ones that immediately spring to mind:


What is the group's view on maintenance? If you're the kind of person who will leave things until absolutely necessary but the group likes to spend money to make sure everything's perfect, or the other way round, you won't enjoy being in the group
How much money does the group have? If the engine is coming up to overhaul time, is there money in a fund for it?
How many are in the group, and how regularly do they fly? You might need to ask some in-depth questions here. My group has 6 members, but two are retired and one works shifts - they prefer to fly during the week, so there are only three of us who regularly fly at weekends. Hence availability is much better than for many 6-member groups. Find out as much as you can about the aircraft useage!
I disagree with Keef about all members being equal. Financially, I agree - all members must pay the same, and all funds are group funds. But my group has one person who looks after the finances, one who looks after the maintenance, and one who oversees the whole group, and it works very well. Find out how your potential group runs, and if you don't like it, then walk away... but don't necessarilly have hard-and-fast rules about what's acceptible.
The location is important, as is things like hangarage... if you like flying at 8am on cold winter mornings, and you're used to taking your aircraft out of a nice warm hangar and firing the engine up, you might not like spending 1/2 hour de-icing the wings first. On the other hand, if money's tight, you might prefer de-icing the wings to the cost of hangarage. The group probably won't change for you - you need to find a group that fits your needs


That's all for now... but I reserve the right to come back with other ideas as I think of them!

FFF
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As promised, here's another thought. You would need to carefully check any rules, whether written or un-written (the un-written ones might take some effort to find out about!) to make sure they fit in with your intended flying. My group, for example, has a rule which says that no one can book the aircraft for more than 3 consecutive days - which is fine by me, but not much use if your intended flying consists purely of going away for a week, twice a year, and few circuits in between to maintain currency.

FFF
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[Stedders]

Some good info coming out here and lots to think about. Are there any obvious things to look for whilst looking at an aircraft on the ground that might show whether or not it is well maintained and in good nick? If you take a prospective aircraft for a test flight are you expected to pay for the flight?

Thanks again for the help,

Stedders

[FlyingForFun]

At the risk of giving out information which may be wrong and put people in danger, I'll wait for an engineer to advise on what to look for!

To answer the question about paying for the test flight, though, I would always offer to pay half. Bear in mind that, unless the pilot has a CPL, you're not allowed to pay more than half (assuming there are two of you on board.) If my offer is declined, then that might tell me something about how friendly the group is.

FFF
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[walkingthewalk]

I wouldn't read too much into being asked to contribute for the cost of the flight. If there are a few people looking at a popular aircraft then it would be reasonable to deter "dreamers" by asking for a refundable sum which is refunded if they buy a share.

[tacpot]

Be wary of anything that is not quite right about the engine.

Do your research so that you know the max and min oil pressures, max oil temperatures and max mag drops. When you have a trial flight watch the engine parameters like a hawk. If the oil temp gets very close the max or the oil pressures aren't within max/min, ask some searching questions. If the problem could be fixed easily and/or cheaply, the group would have done so already...

Ask about the engines oil consumption. Ask when the plugs were last changed. Ask to see the group's accounts and all receipts held by the group.

An engineer can (and should) check over the aircraft irrespective of when it was last inspected and by whom. (Every inspection to date, on the aircraft I have a share in, has turned up a vital point which we all grateful to have found out about). But the engineer will not be able to examine the engine - be aware that you could be buying into a whole load of trouble, even if the rest of the aircraft appears fine - the engineer cannot see the wear on the engine components. Engine (and airframe) log books also do not always tell the whole story.

I would not recommend buying an aircraft with a recently overhauled engine. Until the engine has got 100 hours on it, it is too much of an unknown quantity.

Make notes of all the answers given to your questions, by any of the group members and your inspector.

[High Wing Drifter]

Stedders,

How many hours have you got. If meaningfully less than 100 you will struggle as a group's insurance usually stipulates a minimum of 100. However, exceptions are always possible.

[Croqueteer]

Most points covered, but make sure the costing is biased towards ownership, i.e. monthly payments to cover all fixed overheads, hourly rate for fuel and oil plus a bit, so that bar room fliers pay their full share. I would suggest a PFA type like to Condor or Jodel for starters, and they are easily sold if you decide to trade up. Best of luck.

[Stedders]

High Wing Drifter,

Yes, the 100 hours issue is something I have come across whilst looking. Unfortunately I do not have 100 hours powered flying (only about 50) but do have over 200 hours gliding as well. Does anyone know whether this would count for anything towards that 100 hours needed from an insurance point of view?

[Keef]

FFF - absolutely agree about members having "responsibilities" - I'm the finance guy for our group. Sharing of duties is essential! My point was "equality in shareholding/ownership".

Stedders - insurance. In our group, on a Piper Arrow, we had a new member who was below the 100 hours. The insurers asked for an extra premium (about £200 as I recall) and said the insurance excess would be doubled when he was flying, until he got to 100 hours.

Looking at the aircraft: if you're serious, have an engineer look at it, or go and talk to the maintenance firm that looks after it, or both. But before you spend money on an engineer, look at the aircraft. Is it neat, tidy, free of old crisp packets etc? Is the "towbar" in the boot? Does it have lifejackets and/or a dinghy? Does it look "cared for"? If you are likely to want to care for your aircraft, and the present members don't this isn't going to be a happy relationship.