Why won't the thing accept a hold?

[Borat]

So there we were the other day in our A320 approx 20 miles from destination and ATC asked us to hold. Skipper tries to put a hold in based on the VOR at the field but no joy. Tried various things to remedy the situation but no joy. Ended up holding on raw data, reassuring to know I still have enough grey matter (just) to do this.

Anyone else experienced similar? And more importantly, what did you do to sort it out? No doubt all you Boeing drivers will have something to say.......

Cheers Borat

:)

[madtrap]

Here's your Boeing driver in complete sympathy.
Was the VOR in the Route? I'm only an observer of things Airbus, but FMC/FMGCs have similar rules. Boeing won't let you hold at a point that isn't on the route. Normally folks plug the holding fix into the box and go direct first, then build the hold.
If I'm telling you how to suck eggs, my apologies, but I've seen people forget that basic after years of not having encountered the situation; embarrassing on a ride.

ciao
madmark

[dvt]

If the same VOR has a hold as part of the missed approach, you can run into a great deal of difficulty tryig to get the airplane to establish a hold on this point. Some "Bag-O-Tricks" solutions have you enter the (VORor FIX/-.1NM) and hold off this point. What's a 10th of mile between friends? I prefer the PPOS hold method when things don't go the way I like.

Boeing 737NGs have a PPOS hold feature. I Heading Select myself to the fix I want and the execute a PPOS hold. We also have a nifty FIX page that gives RAD/DIST, which makes turn entry into the hold a snap.

[Borat]

thanks gents,

interested in dvt's comments re hold being in the missed app proc. It was, and will have another look at vol 4 to see if there was anything we missed. did try the dir to VOR then hold proc but to no avail. happy 2003 to you all.

[moleslayer]

My guess is that you had already manually activated the 'Approach Phase' on the PERF page, prior trying to insert the hold. In this case, if the missed-approach involves that hold, you will not be able to insert it again.
However, had you remained in 'Descent Phase' - No probs.
You can 'fix' this by inserting a new cruise level (CRZ) on the PROG page, selecting it on the FCU, pull ALT briefly, then continue descending in OPEN or V/S. this will re-activate 'Descent Phase'.
Whether it's appropriate to be 'heads down' to achieve this depends on the time/distance to run, and the environment (busy TMA?) but it is a handy trick to remember. It's also useful if after a go-around, GA fails to engage,then you are once again stuck in 'Approach'.

[Rumbo de Pista]

Almost always, these problems arise from there already being a hold in the LEGS page, often in the missed approach (as mentioned above). Therefore, I always delete any holds prior to flight.

PPOS holding is OK, but a little risky, as you may run into mis-matches between course and leg distance/time.

Of course, you'll be safer holding in raw data anyway, as if someone tries to compete with you for your level (or you with them for theirs), your tracks will be slightly different and you won't hit!

ps, Borat, have you met my sister? Lovely girl...

[Borat]

moleslayer,

good work, yeah it was pretty much as you describe ie I'd activated the approach and the hold was in the missed app. cheers for the info.

rumbo,

send her my best, such fond memories.....! ;) ;) ;)

[777AV8R]

My 'Boeing' has a nice feature called: 'Next Hold' that can be used after the approach has been activated and the MAP hold is on the same fix....

[Rumbo de Pista]

777-chap, I don't think it does...

The 'NEXT HOLD' option will allow you to select a second hold, AFTER the one already activated in the LEGS page, but not before it. It is a planning and workload-reduction tool for coping with holding at multiple points on an inbound route. If the missed approach is there, with a hold in, you shouldn't be able to put a hold in on the arrival using it.

Do any of you use Bill Bulfer's excellent FMC guides? (Not a thrilling read, but a very useful reference especially if you're into training or flying economically).

[West Coast]

RDP
Do you have a web site/address for Bulfer? If it is against rules to post it here, pm me please.
Thanks

[purr]

YES YOU CAN RUMBO WHEN YOU HAVE A MISSED APP IN THERE THE NEXT HOLD PROMPT CAN BE USED TO MAKE ASMANY HOLDS ONE MAY LIKE TO MAKE ON WAY POINTS.