Elitism

[cinman]

Is GA a little elitist/an in-crowd?

[Andy_R]

GA no I think not. But maybe anything above that is reserved for shall we say "the better heeled" as the cost of obtaining ATPL is becoming out of the reach of most and financing your atpl through the banks/loans of one sort and another is financial suicide.

[dublinpilot]

GA, no. Although some individuals can be.

However the public perciption is that it is elitest

[28thJuly2001]

Before I was a PPL I thought pilots were God like, used to watch the titchy planes flying overhead and be jealous as ****. I thought flying a plane must be the most exciting thing in the world and would be way out of my league. I took a trial lesson and it is not as difficult as we pretend :)
So yes, people do think I am more intelligent than I am when I mention that I am a pilot (at least 5 times a day :D ) but when I take them flying and let them take the controls, they realise it is just an early-middle aged bloke turning a 'wheel' left, right, up and down and talking funny on the radio.

28th,,

[Select Zone Five]

just an early-middle aged bloke turning a 'wheel' left, right, up and down and talking funny on the radioRemind me never to fly into Welsh airspace! :p

Oh and, no I don't think GA is elitist.

[Spacer]

I found some people to be, maybe some with more ratings than others. But then, he who laughs first....

[Flyin'Dutch']

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e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

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So you could argue that the definition states that it is not.

However in practical terms flying is only for a happy few:

And there are some folk out there that behave as though that is their God given right so they behave as though they are an elite.

FD

[rotorboater]

GA Flying is not elitist at all, if you look at the average car park at a flying club and compare it to your average golf club you can see we would rather spend our money on flying than posing in jags at the golf club!

[no sponsor]

There's more than a fair share of Porsches, Mercs and Jags at my airfield.

This clearly doesn't extend to the bays marked for ATC, CFI and the other instructors...

[DOC.400]

Elitist? No. I find flying a great leveller, amongst pilots that is......

DOC

[Evo]

Bl**dy hell, a poll where we all agree... ;) :)

[Whirlybird]

cinman,

Please define "elitist".

[distaff_beancounter]

This Tuesday early evening, it was a perfect time for a bit of night flying. No cloud, little wind, no frost & a beautiful moon.

While swaning over the M25 near Dartford, I noticed that all the traffic was stationery for miles, in both directions.

As we flew passed the traffic, doing around 140k, I could not help feeling very elite. ;)

[Aussie Andy]

Where are you coming from fella? I don't get you at all...

GA is not elitist. In fact a mate of mne has pointed out the difference between flying clubs and golf clubs... generally a lot more money is spent at flying clubs - but there can be an awful lot more "eltism" in your average home counties golf club, eh!

[paulo]

This debate is below me. :D

[Dark Helmet]

I have only just started my PPL and was pleasantly surprised to find that my local club was not elitist at all!
I thoroughly enjoy going to the clubhouse even if it is just for a cup of tea.

But people outside the GA world do think of it as special and elitist.

[Aussie Andy]

paulo - nice one! :D

[eveepee]

Distaff beancounter - I was probably in that traffic jam down there - looking up at you !:D

[Whirlybird]

On the other hand...

Many microlight pilots think they're looked down on by other (Group A) pilots, and perhaps they are. They retaliate by saying they're better pilots, and have more fun, and that their clubs are more sociable. Some helicopter pilots (not me, honest!!!!!) think rotary is the only way to go, and the converse...now, no eggbeater jokes please. Twin pilots look down on single engine pilots, taildragger pilots make derogatory remarks about spamcans. Meanwhile, we few TAPs (total aviation people) fly anything we can get hold of (even kites) and wonder what this is all about.

Elitism in GA? Yes, definitely. But not quite the way you meant it I think, cinman.

[Baily]

The posters on this thread have fallen into the common mistake of equating the words "elite" and "elitist" with snobbery. There is nothing on earth wrong with being an elite. Most managers hope to develop an elite team so that they can achieve more than their competitors. The armed forces are, we hope, an elite, they cost a lot and I hope that they are the best and most effective. One of the meanings of the word elitist is "pride in or awareness of being an elite group". Again nothing wrong with that.

Are we an elite? who knows or cares? Are we snobs "A person who strives to associate with those of a higher social status and who behaves condescendingly to others"? Some are but so what.

[Aussie Andy]

Its not a mistake to see more than one meaning in "elite". The dictionary reference to elite (http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite) has several senses, some with negative connotations such as "socially superior" as well as the more positive connotation eluded to by Baily i.e. "the best of a class".

[Flyin'Dutch']

Well said Whirly!

Have to agree with you!

What really cheeses me off are the characters stating that their flying is THE REAL FLYING.

What a load of tosh.

Anyone stating this has either got blinkers on or is just envious of what other people are doing.

My personal experience is that there are quite a few of these folks in the gliding fraternity. (Probably not more or less than in any other flying fraternity but that is were I have had the bulk of my exposure to aviating, and part of gliding is a lot of talk talk talk (as my other half complains))

Funny though that even those in the hard core never turn down an opportunity for a whizz when offered.

For me: Variety is the spice of life. :eek:

As ever: MHO of course

FD

[AerBabe]

I totally agree. Any flying is good flying... whether it be circuits in a 'spamcan' (personally I'm quite fond of the dear old C152 :p ) some kind of wierd, not-quite-sure-which-way-is-up flight in something with more power, bouncing across a field in a taildragger... as long as I'm not on the ground I don't care what I'm in!

(although I'm happier if it's old, and smells vaguely of oil and avgas ;) )


But as for looking down on non-fliers? They've always seemed "potential fliers" to me :)

[EI_Sparks]

Well, I've yet to meet a stuck-up pilot :) (Which isn't to say that they don't exist, but more that I rather suspect that they're off somewhere looking at the transair catalog pages on epaulettes and wondering which WW2 bomber jacket would go best with their PA28 :) )

Technically though Aerbabe, you do look down on non-fliers ;) (You kindof have to, being a few hundred feet in the air above them ;) ) :D

[PeterJfrancis]

Hi All
especially to distaff_beancounter, I was one of the poor b******s in the traffic on the M25 that night !

I'm just starting my PPL, first lesson is booked for a few weeks time so I have all the fun and games to look forward to !!

Most of the PPL's I have met have not been elitist in the slightest (there was one exception but he flew a P51 !) and in fact have been some of the most down to earth people you could meet.

I will certainly not be elitist when I get my much sought after licence , I will try to show people that flying is for everyone and encourage people to get their PPL , after all the more of 'us' there are the better!

Regards

Peter

[chipped prop]

poor people aspiring to become commercial pilots eventually plunge into the ppl group.Thus finally mixing with us so called toffs also considered elitist as a group.I for one recommend the birch or perhaps 30 hours in a 150 with a keen afi with dubious breeding.

[28thJuly2001]

Is it just me or does Chipped Props post make no sense at all. Read it through 3 times now and still couldn't get the gist of the content. :D
Hang on while I read it through a fourth time to see if I am having one of my thick days. Nope, it's still going way over my head......

28th,,

[Whirlybird]

28thJuly,

I THINK what he means is the following...

People who are planning to get ATPLs and be paid have to get PPLs first. So even if they're poor, they end up mixing with the crowd of private pilots who can afford to fly for fun, who are considered by others to be toffee-nosed and elitist. I'm not sure whether it's the poor wannabe or the toffee-nosed PPL who should be birched - but birching is the cure for all ills isn't it? :rolleyes: But 30 hours in a C150 with an AFI of dubious breeding....well, I don't quite get the point, but yes, that could be a cure-all too, if it didn't kill you first. :rolleyes: Add a hint of sarcasm throughout, and it makes...sort of perfect sense.

Chipped prop, please forgive me if I got that totally wrong. And if I got it right, for spoiling it with the explanation.

Has anyone noticed what a peculiarly BRITISH thread this is? Elitism, toffs, looking down or up on others because of who they are.... When I was in the US, you had money or you didn't. It didn't make you better or worse either way. If you had it, you could do more, and fly more. :) If you didn't...well, perhaps you'd work hard and make some. You wouldn't get jealous or feel patronised or start threads on elitism - not a criticism, just a statement of fact. Perhaps it's the difference between the land of opportunity, and our overcrowded, still classridden little island. Anyone from across the pond care to comment?

[chipped prop]

i thought my response to this thread was so hoplessly sarcastic that that is how it would be taken.Having been a ppl for a long time elitism or them and us does not exist to any great extent .my perception is that the media influence the publics view on the ga community helping create a false image of the recreation.

[AerBabe]

There does seem to be an assumption that you need lots of money to be in aviation. Yes, you do need some ... but it's more about what you choose to do with your disposable income. I didn't have any disposable income, so I took a second job, working 15 or so hours a week to earn enough for 1 hour's flying. Now I don't have the first income, so my second job is keeping me in rent/food/petrol, with none left for avgas. Some people choose to spend their money on cars or holidays, some let it slip away with nothing much to show for it. We choose to use our money to get ourselves up in the air in little tin boxes. :)

[jayemm]

GA is definitely not elitist.

But we could be accused of being insular, and we often deserve the poor press we get.

GA is a world you know nothing about unless you make a positive decision to enter it, for some via a test-flight birthday present (which is how I got into it). Before I had the test-flight, I had just assumed that GA was beyond my reach. The only way GA seemed part of the community was via noise complaints.

Most airfields, most clubs and most pilots do very little to communicate what we do, how we do it and why we do it with the rest of the world. We seem to act like a bunch of beleagured individuals, victims of the CAA, JAR, landing fees, new regulations, noise abatement, fuel costs, rotors, fixed wing ......and so on.

Wouldn't it be great if we could spend a little of our efforts reducing the plethora of organisations in GA UK to one, and focusing on letting other people know how fantastic GA is, what it does for us, what they're missing and most important of all, how GA helps local communities and the fact that they can do it too?

We need to make GA much more accessible to Jo public.

[DB6]

Elitist? Certainly not, you bunch of proles :D !

[Whirlybird]

Well said, Aerbabe. I have a friend who has two horses. Since this is a rural area that's no big deal. We've worked it out, and she spends more on her horses and riding than I do on flying. No-one thinks she must be rich; they assume I am. Actually both of us economise like mad to afford our horribly expensive addictions, but no-one notices that.

[Windy Militant]

As a poverty stricken prole I never cease to be amazed at some of the people that I've rubbed shoulders with since I've joined the wonderful world of GA. There are a few god's gift types around. But having met a few "flying legends" shall we say, what impressed me most is how down to earth they were and still full of enthusiasm for all kinds of flying.
If you want to spread the word about GA get along to your local PFA strut and help out with a Young Eagles event. Also a slight twist on the young eagles that one strut I'm involved in does is Club Eagles. On these days the emphasis is on flying non-flying strut members as well as local residents to the airfield(Neighbours and friends). It also gives flying members a chance to fly in different types. The Young Eagles days are a real buzz and the kids really love it, the smiles on their faces when they land really make it all worth while. If we can get the kids on side then maybe we'll get less complaints in the future.
Having had shall we say an unfortunate brush with the world of equestrianism I must agree that they are nowhere near as friendly as the GA crowd. Possibly I fell in with a bad lot, but a more callous and mercenary bunch I’ve never come across before or since.

[jayemm]

Windy Militant

I've never been to a strut or a Young Eagles event. How do you find out about these and get involved?

[bcfc]

I think you need a 'some can be' option. Generally, I'd say no and my club certainly not but when I was starting out, I certainly felt a bit 'not in the in-crowd'.

[Grainger]

Whirly - first reaction I usually get from people when they learn that I fly is the "isn't that horribly expensive ?", followed by the inevitable mistaken assumption that I must be loaded. Quite the reverse, as you pointed out - having spent what little money I have left on flying !!

Now I just tell people that it's about ten times as expensive as making a mobile phone call, or perhaps twice as expensive (per hour) as driving a new car up the motorway.

Takes 'em a while to figure that out - anyway, I know which I'd rather be doing !

[Julian]

I can concur on Graingers point. I have had the same thing said as well when they find out the cost of the training!

[Whirlybird]

When I started on my PPL(H) and mentioned that I already had a PPL(A), one of the other students looked up and said, only half-jokingly from the sound of it: "Are you the rich woman I've been looking for?" Sometimes you have to explain even to other pilots that you'd be fairly comfortably off if you didn't fly, but as it is you're permanently broke and would be richer if your hobby was burning £20 notes. :( :D