Gyro's

[Toebrake]

ello all,

I have a lapsed CAA PPL (A) - Not flown anything for two years.

When I get some more cash I am reluctant to burn it getting back into expensive club hire once a month.

I have checked the web and find myself drawn to Gyro's.

Can an expert (or enthusiast) tell me what would be needed for a conversion? How much a second hand two seater would cost?
What are the realistic touring chances within the UK (Fuel / Speed) etc and of course safety!

They look like fantastic fun!

I am not too far away from Roger Savage in Carlise!

How long could I leave my PPL(A) unused before I need to go through the whole thing again?

Any help and tales most welcome .
:)

[QDMQDMQDM]

I'm not a gyroplane pilot and have my own prejudices, so take what I say with a pinch of salt. Anyway, although they have some advantages and look a lot of fun, they are noisy, slow and have small fuel capacity. There have been various discussions over on the Rotorheads forum where most people are highly dubious about their safety for various complex reasons I will never understand. They do have a high fatal accident rate.

What about the PFA side of things re fixed wing? Get into a group on a farm strip and you'll find it's a completely different kettle of fish to club hiring.

QDM

[Toebrake]

Thanks QDM,

Kind of fits with some of the reservations I have.

I get the feeling that Gyro's are beginning to find their feet though, as far as Safety and touring prospects go.

PFA is definately going to be the way for me in whatever form.

anyone got anymore........

What is the RAF 2000 really like for touring?

or the Magni 2 seater? is it CAA PFA approved yet?

[englishal]

Try www.gyroplanes.org

I had a quick look and they have a good FAQ section. One question which might be relevant is the:
Do current Private Pilots Licence holders get dispensation?
"For those who already hold a valid PPL (A) or PPL (H) - aeroplanes and helicopters respectively - dispensation is granted from all written examinations except Aircraft Technical. They wiill also be expected to achieve at least 20 logged hours of flight training with a Gyroplane instructor. "

and

"There is one fundamental certainty in flying Gyroplanes - regardless of your previous flying experience, you must get yourself properly trained. If you attempt to teach yourself, YOU WILL become a CRASH!!! statistic - so be warned & be sensible."

Look like a lot of [dangerous] fun !

Good luck
EA:)

[QDMQDMQDM]

What is the RAF 2000 really like for touring?

The fellow who brought the RAF200 demonstrator from Kent to the Branscombe (East Devon) fly-in this summer had to make a fuel stop each way.

QDM

[Toebrake]

Thanks again,

Anymore for anymore?

[QDMQDMQDM]

If you want more responses, ask the same question over on Rotorheads, but batten down the hatches.

Even better, go and fly one of the things and report back. Interested to hear, if unlikely to imitate. ;)

QDM

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A properly designed gyroplane is arguably one of the most safe of all powered flying machines.

They do however have some restricitons such as range and speed.

The RAF 2000 is one of the most poorly designed and unstable of any gyroplanes availible. It has a very signifigant high vertical thrust offset. This high thrustline offset will produce a power pushover should the rotor become unloaded. The resulting bunt over is very fast and unstoppable once started. A power push over, bunt is is also unsurvivable. There have been a signifigant number of RAF losses and fatalaties that fit the power pushover, bunt senario.

The RAF 2000 does not have a horizontal stabalizer, thus making the machine unstable in pitch diversions, also without a H.S. there is no aerodynamic force to compensate for the high thrust line.

The Magni on the other hand is very stable in all axisis.

Of all the different types of flying machines I would vote the gyro the most fun and manourevable to fly. And once more it must be properly designed, which the RAF 2000 is not.

Cat Driver:

[bottieburp]

Try to track down a company called 'Gyrate'.

I recall that the owner - a 737 captain - is called Tony Unwin.

I am not sure where they operate from now but operated from Enstone several years ago.

I might have got the name mixed up because there were actually 2 gyro companies operating form there at the time - noise complaints got them moved on unfortunately - great bunch of guys.

They were using a 2 seat Italian machine (in shocking pink!). I had a demonstration flight and found it most exhilarating.

A really fast and highly manouvrable machine.

This push-over thing is a bit scary.

I met a very nice highly experienced gyro pilot at Turweston the other day - immaculate single-seater machine - and mentioned an awful accident at Enstone involving an experienced pilot who was flying somebody elses machine. It bunted straight down into the deck - fortunately into a wet field a few feet off the tarmac runway. He was unconcious for 3 months and busted up really bad.

His reply was 'that was me'....

This bunt thing has always puzzled me.

Any demonstration (Ken Wallis springs to mind) is designed to demonstrate the benign, easy-flying characteristics and overall concept of the gyro. However, as with the Flying Flea, it appears that even the most experienced can get themselves into a situation where no matter how the pilot manipulates the controls thereafter - he is staring death in the face.

Look on the front cover of Nov 02(current issue) Pilot to see what I got into. Old planes are such fun!

I was tempted by the gyro but my guts told me to stay away.

Is it the case that a modern microlight will give you a similar flying experience at lower cost and with a greater degree of safety?

I am unqualified to say.

I hope that my response doesn't upset too many gyro pilots - I am only relating my own personal experiences and why I made my own choice to stay away from them.

Happy landings!

BB

[Toebrake]

Thanks Guys,

All very Honest.....Interesting what you say about the RAF 2000

[luvly jubbly]

Hi.

You have 5 years from the expiry date from your logbook stamp. During this time, you need to be able to pass a proficiency check (Bit like the old GFT with no nav content)

After that you'll be needing to pass the full skills test again!

Gimme a bell if you need to know anything!

see ya soon

lj

[Toebrake]

Thanks Luvverly,

How's things?

What do you think about this Gyro idea...You must have seen a fair few in action over at Carlisle

[Croqueteer]

I can only agree with Chuck Ellsworth. We have one on our field (I don't fly it) and by all accounts it is very unstable in pitch, the owner has been unable to solo it so far after a lot of hours, and he has had bad experiences with the manufacturer in Canada due to cracked blades. On the other hand, we get visited by a locally based Italian tandem two seater, and that seems very well built and easy to fly, a lot of fun.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It is very important that you understand the physics of the power push over in a gyroplane.

It can only take place in a gyro with a high thrust line such as the RAF 2000.

A gyro with the thrust line that is at the center of the vertical center of gravity can not push over, also a gyro like every other flying machine requires a horizontal stablizer for pitch damping stability.

Try pulling the fins off a set of darts and see how accurate your dart game becomes, a gyro is no different, it requires stabalizers to keep it flying stable.

In fact here is another test, take your wifes budgie out of its cage and cut off its tail then observe its flight path after you throw it out the window of a tall building.

The best place to find out everything you need to know about gyros is www.rotorcraft.com/

If you live on that Island just off Europe go see Roger Savage he is a very reputable gyro instructor and will be more than happy to take you for a demo flight.

Now just to reinforce my comments I own a RAF 2000 and when they first started in business I was involved with them for a short period of time, I owned a flight training school both fixed wing and helicopters and had planned to add gyros to my school.

I have my RAF stored in the hangar and will not fly it until I completly redesign it, in otherwords I do not believe it is safe in its origional form.

With regard to dealing with RAF it is my personal opinion that I would be safer dealing with those Nigerians who send out all those e-mails asking for your bank information.

I make the above statements based on the files and documents which I can produce if Danny is uncomfortable with my opinion. Then again I do not post anonymously so it is easy to contact me if you think my statements are libalous.

By the way, as well as holding an ALTP fixed wing, I also hold a Commercial helicopter license, as well as a seperate U.S.A. Commercial Gyroplane license. So hopefully my comments will be taken with some thought by those of you who are wondering if I am qualified to make these comments.

So to sum up,, Gyros are neat machines and loads of fun.

Another suggestion, there is a gyro company in the U.S.A. that makes a tractor style gyro called the Little Wing, now there is a truly safe and stable machine.

Cat Driver:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't fly them myself, but know a lot of the main gyro experts including some named above. There does seem to be a consensus on the RAF 2000 amongst those whose judgment I'd trust that it is a very pretty, very comfortable aircraft which is very poorly designed and has severely deficient handling qualities.

Certainly the only criticisms I've ever heard of Roger Savage is that some people didn't get along with him, not of anything to do with his flying, instruction or professionalism.

I confess if I wasn't so busy with the stuff I'm busy with, the idea of getting involved with gyroplane design and ops, and perhaps trying to help get the fatal accident rate up from the current 1 per 8,000 hrs to somewhere around the 1 per 50,000 hrs (CAP 701) for microlights would be a worthwhile challenge.

G

[bottieburp]

Well Toebrake!

I think the thread you started has proved to be most interesting.

I have read many of Genghis' posts and he speaks words of wisdom.

If you are at least 6 times more likely to end up in a smoking hole through having chosen gyros as opposed to microlights then the draw has to be a very strong one indeed?

Why haven't you flown for 2 years? Money? I am certain that the operating costs of a microlight are less too.

One thing is certain - you need to get back into flying straight away!

If you haven't tried motorgliding - dooooo it! I went through the doldrums 10 years ago - fed up with hiring Cessna's - and discovered motorgliding.

I promise you it will blow your frock up.

Anybody fly today? As smooth as a baby's bum with excellent viz.

I even found some mushrooms on the strip for tea!

Happy landings.

BB

[Toebrake]

Thanks again for all of your information and opinions.

Soooo Tell me more about ultralight touring machines (2 seats)

Same questions as before really. When (If) the cash situation improves what is there that is going to combine elements of Safety, Fun, UK Touring, and realistic cost?

...Over to you

[Genghis the Engineer]

Wash your mouth out with soap sir, ultralights are a strange foreign practice. True brits fly microlights. (Actually, I think this is because the BMAA was started as the "British Minimum Aircraft Association" and they couldn't afford to change the letterheads).

Pretty much all microlights - so long as you disregard hull insurance (which is inevitably a functioon of hull value) and purchase cost (ditto) will cost the same to run; that is around £25/hr all-in. They tend to be thirstier by the mile than conventional aeroplanes, but win on everything else.

If you want a 2-seat aeroplane to go places, here's a few indications of what's out there:-

Puma sprint, probably cruises at 35kn, cost you about £2k, 2-seat flexwing.

Raven, 45kn cruise, cost you about £3k, 2-seat flexwing.

Thruster TST or T300, probably cruises at 50kn, cost you about £5k, 2-seat side-by-side taildragger with conventional controls.

Spectrum T1, similar performance to the Thruster, say £7k, tandem, all-composite wing, nosewheel.

X'Air, 350hr quick-build kit, side-by-side 60 kn tourer, generally get one flying (or get one second hand) for about £10-11k

Shadow CD, tandem high wing tourer, stunning front cockpit viz, slighlty cramped in the back, 65kn cruise, say £10-12k

Thruster T600, costs between £12-£24k new depending upon engine, comfort and nosewheel .v. tailwheel. Cruise up to about 75kn, superb viz very comfortable tourer with conventional controls.

Pegasus Quik, latest thing from Pegasus, 2-seat flexwing, £22k, 80kn cruise, 1000 fpm climb, needs a 200m runway.

Pegasus CT, tadpole shaped all composite hot-ship, side-by-side, 110kn cruise, £43k.


All these are either dual control or can be easily modified to dual control, the only one where you're ever likely to do any significant pax for fuel trading is the CT.

I've flown all of the above except the sprint (which I'm assured is basically a slower Raven) and the Quik (which I'm promised a go in shortly) and considered all of them enormous fun. At the end of the day it comes down to how much you want to spend.

Incidentally, I have a personal philosophy that the difference between 2 hours to get there at £25/hr and 1 hour to get there at £50/hr is that I got twice the flying for the same money. Microlight touring isn't for those in a hurry, but the (almost) inevitable STOL performance opens up pretty much anything with a 300m field or large beach.

G

[Toebrake]

Most Humble apologies Mr Engineer Sir.


Thanks for the Tips and names. Fantastic speed is of no great concern but I would want a realistic tourer.

Hanging underneath a few tent poles doesn't really appeal (No offence) although I am speaking from an un-informed position (Never having tried it)

I guess what I really need to do is get off my backside, stop feeling financially sorry for myself, and do some research so that when I do have some more cash I know what to do with it!

Thanks for all of your help guys.

Carlise and Eshott here I come!

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Hanging underneath a few tent poles doesn't really appeal (No offence) although I am speaking from an un-informed position (Never having tried it) " - And you were asking about Gyros?


Incidentally, there's a big show at the Telford exhibition centre last weekend of this month which would give you a good chance to see much of what's available and talk to people who fly them. http://www.iae.uk.com/

Cheers,

G

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Some more comments on gyros:

( 1 ) Unlike microlights gyros are not as limited as to how strong the wind is. If the wind is suitable for flying regular aircraft the gyro will be even less bothered by it.

( 2 ) Gyros do not stall.

( 3 ) The cruise speed of gyros will be in the 65 to 75 knot range for a two place.

( 4 ) The noise complaints are due to poor prop choices, and to high prop RPM, this is very solvable by choosing the right combination of prop and RPM reduction drive if using one.

( 5 ) For emergency landings the gyro can touch down at zero Knots.

( 6 ) Gyros are easy to trailer, all you do is remove the Rotors.

( 7 ) Gyro pilots get more girls ( or guys ) because they are such good conversation starters.

Cat Driver:

[Toebrake]

Genghis....Fair Comment!

Chuck....Now you've got me thinking again, do you fly Gyro's?

Please tell me more............

[Genghis the Engineer]

Chuck,

(1) Microlights are no more limited by Wx than conventional aeroplanes. As ever it comes down to pilot ability - I've been to 15 knots X-wind (deliberately) and 40 knots total wind (accidentally) in several microlights without ill effects. This is similar to the limits I'd accept in a Piper or Cessna type. It is true that for a low hour pilot they are more limited because handling wind conditions in a microlight is more down to the pilot than the aeroplane.

(2) Gyros do not have a conventional fixed wing stall. They do fall out of the sky if you allow the rotor speed too low. Conclusion - all aircraft have dangerous corners of the envelope, they just aren't always in the same place. (Actually in microlights the stall is a non-event mostly, the killer lies elsewhere).

(3) Whilst burning about 5 gallons per hour.

(4) Probably true of any other aircraft. Of course with permit aircraft (whether gyros, microlights, or homebuilt light aircraft) at least you have the option to change them.

(7) But to really pull, you still need a 2-seater.


G

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Toebrake:

Yes I do fly Gyros, you should read the Rotorcraft conference at www.rotorcraft.com

Genghis:

I note your comments on winds and microlights.

However you are a little confused regarding Rotor RPM management on a gyro. Once Rotor RPM is brought up to flight speed either by use of a mechanical pre rotator or by foward movement during take off the Rotor RPM is self sustaining. In flight the Rotor RPM will always maintain a given RPM except if it is loaded beyond level flight 1 G, such as in a quick steep turn, the Rotor RPM will then increase based on the load induced. Once returned to normal flight the Rotor RPM will return to normal.

There is one other very, very important thing to know about a gyros RRPM, the rotor can be unloaded by reversing the airflow through the disk by suddenly lowering the nose of the gyro and producing negative G load. That is guaranteed to kill you.

Remember a gyro rotor is driven by an upward flow of air to produce the RPM for lift. A helicopter rotor RPM is produced by engine power and the airflow is downward. Except when the helicopter loses power and the collective is full down then the helicopter becomes a gyro.

A gyro if brought to zero foward speed will maintain its Rotor RPM and descend vertically, the rate of descent will vary depending on many factors such as the weight of the machine.

The rate of descent will be quite high and I would not want to descend into the ground at such a rate, however all you need do to land is move the stick foward to regain enough foward flight to flare for the landing ( about 45 mph ) then flare and land normally.

I believe you were confusing gyro Rotor RPM with helicopter Rotor RPM, the helicopter RRPM is maintained by engine power, the gyro maintains RRPM due to the airflow flowing upwards through the rotor.

Oh by the way speaking of microlights I have a Cri Cri sitting in my hangar, now that is a real neat toy. :D :D

Cat Driver:

**************
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D