Cessna (150/172) or Piper Cadet

[[u]]

I've selected two flightschools, one of which I will
join to get my PPL. The problem basicly is both are
fine and after having flown at each school for an
hour (trial lesson) I've been unable to make a
choice.

School A flies with a Cessna 150L and after 30 hours
they will move you to a Cessna 172. It is a commercial
outfit but the atmospere was realy nice, they also do
'social events', ie flying tours etc.

School B flies with Piper PA-28-161 Cadets. It's a club,
also nice atmosphere. Prices are about equal.

Which would be the better plane to learn to fly in ?

Would it be easier to move from Cessna -> Piper later on,
or would a conversion from Piper -> Cessna be easier ?

Advise, help and thoughts welcome :)

[knobbygb]

You'll find loads of arguments for and against each type by searching previous posts.

One thing I would say is that, since Warriors/Cadets are more expensive to fly than C150's (perhaps 20% more), school B seems to offer the better 'value for money' by offering these aircraft at the same price.

I am biased, I'm learning in a a Cadet at a club. I like the idea that nobody is making a profit out of my flying - the money I pay covers running costs of the a/c and airfield, salaries, social club etc. I know what I'd do, but that might not be right for you.

[Evo]

As both types are so widely used for basic training, I think it is safe to say that neither is a bad aeroplane for the job. Given that, and that the prices are the same, I'd go for things like the atmosphere at the respective clubs (both equally good?) and simple convenience. I wouldn't worry too much about the choice of aeroplane - I very much doubt that anybody has a hard time converting from one to the other :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

They're both perfectly good aeroplanes, and well regarded trainers. However, if all else is equal, I'd suggest learning in the PA28-161, partly because it's slightly more comfortable to fly, and partly because if you get the hang of landing one of those on the numbers, a C172 will be a doddle.

G

[MLS-12D]

I have flown both types and agree with the previous posts. It doesn't really make much difference which you choose; either 'plane will be quite suitable for primary instruction. And it's very easy to switch from one to the other later; a checkout shouldn't take more than an hour or two, assuming that you first acquaint yourself with the POH.

Knobby is correct with his point that Warriors are usually more pricey to fly than 150s or 152s. Also their cockpits are more roomy than two-place Cessnas, which may make a difference if you and your instructor are both beefy guys. Personally I am 6'2", 180 lbs, and I've never had any problems with 152s, which I flew exclusively until after I got my PPL. I do much prefer the manual flaps on Pipers, however!:)

[DB6]

You may also find, if you're a realistic weight e.g. 15 stone or so and not the 11.5 that airlines assume, that you plus instructor plus full fuel actually load the C152 out of limits. Not by much but it can happen (and before you ask it makes not a lot of difference to the handling unless you're on a really short field) which then puts you at the mercy of the insurance and legal carrion feeders if the worst should happen. I wouldn't give those bastards the whiff from my smelliest turd (well I might actually if it was a real paint-peeler) so the Piper might be better in that case. The C172 can only be a problem 4-up but that holds for most 4-seaters anyway.
Another thing - C152s spin :D and there is an Aerobat version which does what it says :D :D :D :D . Piper Cadets don't.

[distaff_beancounter]

C152s spin ........ Piper Cadets don't OH YES THEY DO!!!!
If you try hard enough, nearly every F/W aircraft will spin. :D

Its just that a lot of them are not certified for spinning. Presumably either because spinning would overstress the airframe and/or 'cos they are total cows to recover from spins. :(

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or because Piper didn't see the point in spending the money to spin-certify two different trainers. The PA38 is spin certified, but spin certification is a slow and expensive business.

G

[MLS-12D]

If available, I would rather spin a Cherokee (PA-28-140) than a Traumahawk! :D

[A and C]

The PA38 spins properly and requires the correct recovery actions to be taken the PA28 and C150/152 just require you to let go of the controls , now which aircraft teaches you to fly properly ?.

[distaff_beancounter]

Genghis Yes, you are spot on.

Its the product liability lawyers who are nervous......

.... and its the beancounters who veto the extra certification costs! :D

[FormationFlyer]

Folks...unless Im mistaken spinning is a different thread.

Im an instructor and have instructed on both C152 and PA28.

Do yourself a favour and go fly the PA28.

Why? Because they are easier to taxi - i.e. students can taxi them first time no problem (well not that much :D ).

The C152 is a pig to taxi - poor old student tries to use rudder only - trying to be good as the books say dont taxi against the brakes - only to find themselves off the taxiway before they started....and the concept of differential braking is not best to try to learn on effect of contols pt 1. You *have* to use differential brakig under power to get C152s to taxi accurately...and rudder input at low speed is basically on or off - until you get some power & slipstream over the rudder (or some speed) the rudder is like a trying to use huge sponge......In my experience students found this demoralising.

Difference between the two airbourne? not much. The PA28 161 has more grunt and it is noticeable. Its is a more stable a/c in flight - mainly due to the added inertia. The C152 is a little more sensitive in roll, being lighter on the controls. It has more elevator authority than the PA28 and is thefore more forgiving on landing.

Typically clubs fit C152 with poor sets of instrumentation and navcom fits. And most C152 panels dont have enough room to get all the instruments in a sensible 'standard' fit, whereas the PA28's panel is bigger, and will have a more standard fit (typically..typically i said). oh yeah and the parking brake on the PA28 is actual useful. :D

Next the crosswind limit on a C152 is a mere 12kts - whereas on the pa28 its 17kts....and believe me whilst I am happy landing a PA28 in 25 kts of crosswind (yes actual component) I dont like C152s above 15....they just have so little rudder effectiveness really...what does that mean to the student - well more often than not a crosswind wont scupper your lessons in a PA28 but a 15kts x-wind may well scupper them on a C152. With winter on the way its worth considering.

And finally, the PA28 161 is a good 4 seat tourer, the C152 is a squeeze with 2 normal sized people...and has wieght problems even with only 2 people...whereas the PA28 only starts having weight issues when you are 4 up.

Hope this helps.

[MLS-12D]

A and C,

What you say is perfectly true. However, I find the shuddering of the PA38's vertical stabilizer during a spin to be disconcerting. Call me chicken-hearted!:D

MLS-12D

[DB6]

distaff, my meaning was within the bounds of certification. You can aerobat any fixed wing type as well....for a while.

[Tinstaafl]

I tend to the C150/152 & C172 in preference to the PA28.

The spin ability is useful, aerobatics also (for the A150/152). I find it easier to demonstrate various effects eg adverse yaw, some stall events etc.

I prefer the handling characteristics, rear window ('Omnivision' tm Cessna.....snicker), generally maintenance free spring steel u/c ('Land-o-matic'........double snicker), the ground view for nav training, high wing brolly when getting in & out in wet weather, high wing parasol in tropical sunshine (hmmm......forget that for the UK :D ), hight wing to taxi through gates or over shrubbery etc etc

It's an easy to step up through the C150/152 --> C172/C177 --> C182 --> C206/210. To be fair it's similar for PA28 --> PA28R --> PA32 & PA32R.

I recognise that I'm somewhat biased since I learnt in the Cessnas and have rather more experience in them (~1000 in the C150/152, ~700 in the C172 & a bit less than 500 in the PA28).

You'll learn in either sort. It's more important to have a good instructor & frequent lessons.

Just my 0.02 pesos worth...

[Side Slip]

I've flown a number of types over the last few years, but I always returen to the C172. I don't see any great advantages either way but for me the 172 offers good performance short field, is amazingly strong and I like the large doors for loading passengers + Escape etc. I have to admit I found the 152 (Aerobat) a bit twitchy in a breeze but great fun to fly.

[strewth]

For your money I'd go for the trickier of the two. (C152)

The C152 is by no means a perfect aeroplane and because of this it makes an excellent trainer. So what if it doesn't have a descent set of instruments???? I don't let my students see them until well into circuits unless I'm proving a point. The most important factor is the performance equation; Power + Attitude = Performance. Use it and you won't stray. The 152 has excellent visual reference points for setting attitudes.

C152 is tricky to handle on the ground.... I won't argue with that.... but it makes you think about the controls you have available to you. It isn't great in crosswind, but if you can nail it, you can nail it in any plane.

You also have the advantage of upgrading into the C172 which to my mind is even less stable, but still an excellent aircraft to fly.

One other personal reason I like the Cessna's is that during my students training, I like to get them to make an approach to land with out using the 3 main primary controls. Trim & power only for pitch, and the doors for roll. Its a good exercise in pilot communication and allows students to apply previous lessons and newly learned technique to an interesting situation. Its a pity that Mr & Mrs Piper didn't see fit to install a second door on the worrier.

[MLS-12D]

strewth,

I've never before heard anyone say that a 172 is less stable than a 150/152. Just the opposite is what most people say, and certainly that's been my experience.

Please elaborate! If you're right, I'm going to finish my IR on a 152!:D

MLS-12D

[strewth]

During an approach with full flap in a C172, you have a very large pitch change entering the flare. This pitch change without trim (no time of course) can lead to difficulties with students having to maintan the landing attitude with the aircraft a long way out of trim. C152 has a lower ammount of approach flap and lighter controls. The flared attitude is much easier to achieve and maintain because of this..

In other respects, I would have to say that the C152 is much more stable in yaw than any C172 that I have flown (especially those fitted with rudder trim), and almost the same in pitch and roll.

If your talking about being hit by thermals and other turbulence.... fair enough.

[MLS-12D]

Okay, I see what you mean.

Biggest problem for me is the 172's tendency to 'float' in the flare. Actually it's not usually a problem as such, but when I haven't flown one for a few months, it certainly shows in my first few landings. :)

[Tinstaafl]

If it's floating during the flare I'd suggest checking what speed you're using over the fence.

Another possibility is not fully closing the throttle or the a/c needs its idle RPM adjusted.

If you're using 1.3 Vs & full flap there's v. little, if any.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just throwing a thought into the debate, I think the best widely available trainer in schools at present is the PA38 Tomahawk, for the following reasons:-

- Excellent view out
- Ergonomically good instrument and control layout
- Very underpowered, forcing a good understanding of energy management
- Low wing, therefore tends to float in ground-effect, forcing you to fly at the right approach speed and use flaps.
- Flies as if it's permanently out of fwd CG, forcing active monitoring and correction of speed.
- A stall that instills a bit of respect.

What I can't understand is why Piper have never put the top of a PA38 on the bottom of a PA28, which to me would be the best of both worlds for a private use aeroplane, although I'd still recommend the 38 for school use.

G