3 cheers for the LACC boys and girls....

[Richard Everest]

... for trying to achieve what management have yearned for, but never dreamed of actually doing, for years i.e. split the ATCO union into Airports and Area. I'll be passing on my support. Roll on the 2002 Prospect Conference (and to dividing and permanently conquering, of course!).

Cheers Suckers ;)

[Asda]

I'm sorry, you've lost me. What have I and everyone else at Swanwick done this time? I know you're dying to tell me.

[DtyCln]

Richard Everest, (not a.k.a.) The Chairman,

you clearly are a cock!

LACC have done nothing to split airfields and centres over anything this year. The only thing which is current and could possibly upset your small brain is pay and overtime. Both of which were negotiated centrally with the majority of reps being from LTCC and EGCC. Engage brain and have the decency to state what is bothering you, and what poxy little unit you work at.

[almost professional]

dty cln
dont work for nats-however could not let that comment pass 'what poxy little unit you work at'-it would appear that now you only count in ATC if you work in a unit of certain size, preferably one with no windows?
having read many posts over the last few months I would say that there is definitely a sense that only AC matters-sorry but wrong!!
:mad:

[flower]

Very saddened by your last comment on poxy little units dtycln
unnecessary I feel.
However agree with you what point is this person trying to make.

I havent got a clue.
An ATCO from a small but not poxy unit

[professor yaffle]

what did i miss?

prof

[niknak]

Prof,

I don't know.

I've re read the original post 3 times and still don't understand it.:confused:

But that's not a real suprise, cos I'm a Prospect member, an atco, and work at an airport that is larger than some but inversly bigger than others, with only a modicum of pox. :p :p

[DtyCln]

Firstly, apologies for my original outburst. :(

I was hacked off and slightly intoxicated during my original post, unprofessional I know.

Regardless of what unit Richard works at, I referred to it as poxy purely cos he couldn't be bothered to tell us. I would have called any unit poxy, EGLL, LTCC, EGPA, LACC etc it was the fact that he gave none that annoyed me.

Flower: Wales has some fine units including 2 NATS ones I believe, no offence meant.

Almost Prof: Non Nats tut tut tut. Only joking! Come join us! Oh and by the way, you are showing your age. LACC has thousands of windows, I can watch the trees swaying in the breeze whilst I vector hundreds of A/C to many fine units.

Roger out: We are not willingly giving away our airspace. The reason, as I am sure you are well aware is that we don't, and will never have enough staff to fully man up all LACC sectors. EGCC and SCATCC however have surplus staff, and unfortunately very few of them offered to come and bail us out when the units were trawled last year, so the airspace has to go in the other direction.

The irony of it is, and I really hope i'm wrong, is that all Area work will be done at LACC within 10 years anyway and all the airspace and all the kicking and screaming ATCO's will be down here plugged in at Swanwick.

Everitt and Michael Bishop(as TAG Group Chairman) said at the time of the PPP that there will less than 10 ACC's in Europe within 10 years. Now let me see, GB and Ireland will still have four of them? I Don't think so!. LACC and maybe Shannon if the IAA (one of our owners in case you had forgotten) and NATS, manage to keep the Oceanic contract. Again this is unlikely as NAVCAN will be bidding for it, and their Oceanic costs to A/C are 60% lower than NATS.

Anyway, off the subject now. Come on Richard, what was your problem anyway? PAY? Boring, settled now anyway. Overtime, no choice, 60 ATCO's short this year, 65 short next summer after retirees. Our only hope is that no one will work it anyway and it will get forgotten about. Weather, sorry our is better! Parking, yes we have loads. Delays, sorry you will never beat us!!

Live long and prosper!;)

[flower]

dtycln , apology accepted and yes I am NATs.

Would the person who ever put this notice on please explain themselves.
If you know about a split perhaps you would be so kind to inform the rest of us Area and Airports because none of us seem to be aware of one.

[Loki]

I would describe LACC as a poxy big unit, redeemed only by the chaps and chapesses who somehow make the whole mess work.

[Findo]

I'd love to know what the original post was about. If this is about overtime then maybe Richard could explain why it is such a bad deal that the overtime, which many airports have worked for decades, is now better valued. That value is a national agreement and applies to all ATCOs. Well done LACC for setting the standard.


In the meantime while Richard smirks in the background DtyCln has made some interesting observations.... EGCC and ScACC (it hasn't been ScATCC for 7 years) have a surplus of staff. Nope. We just have less of a deficit than LACC and can do the same task with less staff as we don't have the "advantage" of the NERC inflexible system or LACC method of operation.

Something about us being trawled last year ..... No we were not. If we were, a great big drawback to anybody volunteering for LACC is the treatment received by the last lot of volunteers. The training system was so c***p that the guys were lucky to average 8 hours a month and lots of other issues which got too personal to discuss here.

All the area work will be done at LACC in 10 years !!! I'll give you £100 today on the basis you quadruple it on 16/10/05 when it becomes obvious that NSC is being built, MACC are heading North and we are not heading for LACC by 16/10/2012. Just e mail me your name and address.


IAA (one of our owners in case you had forgotten) Not only have I have I not forgotten but it never happened. IAA own not one single part of NATS.

Other than that I like a LACC ATCO who has the balls to apologise in public. Good on you mate.

[DtyCln]

I should really be asleep!!

IAA don't own any part of NATS, agreed.

IAA pulling TAG's strings behind the scenes. YES

Hence the reason we at LACC are getting a dozen or so Shannon ATCO's on secondment from the IAA. Working for NATS whilst still being paid by the IAA on very juice terms and conditions.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong, if not the A74(M) will have been finished by 2010 for all the Pickfords lorries blazing south! ;)

Left at Bristol, Right at the A34, left at M27 and you can't miss us! We are the large building on the left hand side. :rolleyes:

Live long and prosper.

[1261]

One point: although the "overtime" deal is a national deal, it's down to local management to decide whether or not to pay out. We've been told that under no circumstances will we get that rate - just the previous "buy back a day's leave" routine.

I for one have refused to do any overtime since this situation arose.

[Ichabod]

Just a quick note about the national agreement regards buying back of excess leave and days in lieu. I am at an airport, not huge, but in the top 4 or 5 and expanding rapily!! We have been told that we will just have to carry over any leave and days in lieu as there is no money available to us, and it appears that to try and fit the leave in next year we may even be working below our agreed OR (nothing new there then). I guess this is what the original post was referring to?:confused:

I don't blame anyone for accepting the pay deal, I guess some of us just wish bits of it were tied down somewhat more tightly rether than leaving it up to 'Local Management'. Our strenght is sticking together..lets keep it that way :) :) :)

[Asda]

All this - and we still don't know what on earth he's talking about

[Loki]

Asda;

Neither does he.

[Richard Everest]

None of you have seen Motion 12 in your ADC agenda then?

Discuss......

[1261]

For the benefit of those who've not seen it, here's Motion 12:

Quote-

1. Conference agrees that the needs of members will be best suited to a restructuring of the ATCOs Branch. Conference instructs the BEC to produce a paper on realigning the branch into Area and Airport sections for discussion at ADC 2003.
LACC MEMBERS

-unquote.

I'll make no comment......

[flower]

How on earth does this best serve ATCOs needs.
This is very worrying:(

[DtyCln]

The usual Blah Blah!

Just vote it down if it's crap. Any member can submit any motion on any subject. If a vocal minority choose to submit a motion on a 'consultation paper' good on them. How many people in here can ever say they have submitted a motion to conference? Many motions submitted to conference are utter crap, just vote them down. No big deal. Go to conference, see what the motion is actually about then vote. It's called democracy. Don't tar every LACC ATCO if it turns out to be an anti Airports motion, because it only takes 2 anti airport ATCO's to submit the motion.

Live long and prosper

[flower]

Thanks dtycln,

I certainly have never had any gripe against LACC atcos, in fact we work very closely with them here and have a good working relationship and long may it continue.
We all trained together at Bournemouth and I am sure there is no inclination to change the excellent relationship we currently have.

Strength in numbers , we all after all do the same damn job that of controlling aircraft, be it at the approach or en-route phase of flight.
Sounds like someone is trying to be controversial here at conference, I hope common sense prevails.

[Mr_Grubby]

Is Brian Middleton still @ your unit ?
If so, tell him he owes me a pint.
Thanks.

Mr G.

PS To all :- Sorry for hijacking the thread. !!!!

[Findo]

No big deal. Go to conference, see what the motion is actually about then vote. It's called democracy.

Nice idea Dty .. exactly how do we all get to vote ? LACC is the only unit which holds a mandating meeting to decide how to vote long before they attend the conference.

[BEXIL160]

Mr. Middleton was spotted at the south coast "Dome" not so many weeks ago......

oh, and he owes me LOTS of pints...

To the Blue Anchor, and beyond
:D

Rgds BEX

[Big Nose1]

Findo with all your experience of union conference you must be stirring it.

DtyCln is entirely correct, if the motion is rubbish then conference will vote it out, even the LACC delegates may vote against.

If you dont like the motion then like a good union member you will let your unit delegates know and they will take your opinion into account.

How many loony ScACC, MACC, every other unit motions are voted out by conference every year, many i think you will agree.
As long as two members can send a motion to conference there will always be stupid, ill advised and down right rubbish debated at conference.

You really should know better ;) ;)

And by the way, a mandating meeting long before conference....where do you dream that one up from, for many years the ONLY unit NOT allowed to have a section meet at Bredbury pre-conference was the old West Drayton section. If mandating ever took place it was long before my time, and that is a lot of years ago!!

[flower]

Bexil , Grubby,
I will pass on your regards and requests for drinks !!

[Numpo-Nigit]

Many years ago I admit (late 70s or early 80s), but I can recall attending at least one mandating meeting of the LATCC Section Committee prior to conference.

[1261]

Having just read the rest of the agenda, "motion" seems a very appropriate word for most of the items......

:)

[Findo]

Big Nose .. I do apologise for being so silly. I will wait to see the democratic process in action. It will be nice to see the LACC delegates listening to the debate and voting sensibly after being persuaded by the debate. And not once will they all vote together or call for a card vote when conference delegates vote against their wishes.:p

[Chicken Dansak]

FINDO

For someone with the wealth of union and conference experience you have, I thought you would behave better. To suggest that LACC or West Drayton AC delegates are mandated is a nonsense. This has not happened for at least 11 years! If they want to vote collectively either by show of hands or card vote then that's democracy. Just as all the other sections do.
For those that don't know, a card vote would have to seconded by another unit anyway. For LACC to win a card vote they would have to carry at least TC and LL with them.
For the record in the last 10 years 7 card votes that I can recall have been initiated by AC delegates. 3 at the "suggestion" of the then BEC in which you were a part! (What price democracy then?) ( Remember the FIR debate)
For the record the last card vote called by AC delegates seconded by both TC and LL was LOST. The reason, not all AC or in fact TC delegates voted the same way. True democracy at work!
The ATCOs branch has enough problems keeping the membership together before, during and after conference. Your comments are at best mischievous but do nothing to promote the good that conference achieves. Members should be encouraged to take part, submit motions (loony or not) and contribute to the branch as a whole.

[Findo]

LACC bashing Chicken ?? Shhurly some mistake. How can you infer that from a few comments in response to being told that we can all go to conference and vote down rubbish motions ?

If the LACC delegates (and all others) all vote according to the quality of the debate then that is nice to hear ... as I said.

I do dispute the timescale of the last mandating but hopefully that is now academic.

If you look at my original post on this thread I am very appreciative of the way the LACC members have stood up and advanced our conditions recently.

I for one have submitted my (loony) motions this year. Looks like lots of our colleagues have done so too and we have a record agenda. All our members are being constantly encouraged to submit motions - hopefully as a first step in becoming active.

Unfortunately we still have the sort of cynical comment which started this thread without a scent of rationale or being prepared to discuss and debate in the open.

Keep fighting the good fight folks :) :)

[250 kts]

Looks like there may not be a LACC delegation at all at ADC.

Most if not all of the prospective delegates have had the Special Leave refused or just ignored by the ORO. This could mean that the largest and most influential unit in the country being under or not represented.

There was a shambles last year where even students were recruited to be delegates and it was promised that this would not happen again-WELL IT HAS :mad: :mad:

The LACC reps are constantly being denied facility time and most meetings take place in spare time accruing even more TOIL. It really is time the BEC pulled their finger out and played hard ball on this one. NO TIME ALLOCATED=NO AGREEMENTS signed.

[Lon More]

I thought that the NATS private forum was created for this sort of thing.
Further visible proof to your management of how divided you are and won't further your cause at all

[250 kts]

Nothing to stop management joining the NATS forum anyway.