Listening to R/T

[Footsie]

I've just started my PPL, and have been given an air band receiver. As R/T is a foreign language at the moment, I've found this really useful.

I've now heard that it's illegal to listen to air communications without an R/T licence. Does anyone know if this is true?

Thanks.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I seem to remember this one being discussed here before and I don't think it is true.

Anyway, who cares? Go on, live a little! ;)

QDM

[Aussie Andy]

I used air-band rx for same purpose - haven't been arrested yet! Don't worry about it mate!

[READY MESSAGE]

As far as I know it's not illegal to listen, but you need an R/T licence to transmit - which you can't with your average airband receiver. When you are training and doing the R/T before you having an R/T licence you are operating on the licence of your instructor.

I think that's right but, as always, stand to be corrected.

[You want it when?]

It's illegal to transmit, but you can listen as much as you like. The same applies for Police bands etc... Owning decoding gear is harder to explain but un-encrypted (I think my English teacher just turned in his grave) RT is OK.

Of course if you're worried then pass your class 2 medical and you're a studie pilot and need the tools of the trade.

[englishal]

I believe listening is ok (inc. police etc) , but as soon as you act on any information you hear, then you become illegal :confused: one of those stupid laws, like pissing on the back left wheel of a taxi, which apparently is legal (some old law, stemming back to stage coaches or something and was never revoked.....).....maybe I'll try it next saturday night on the sherbet, and I'll let you know how I get on :D

Anyway, does it really matter, is it going to stop you if it was illegal???

Cheers
EA:)

[Footsie]

Thanks all.

The guy who gave me the receiver is married to a magistrate, so he feels a little better now. Guess I can bring the radio into the office and listen away.

[vintage ATCO]

It is actually illegal to listen to anything to which you are not licenced or have the permission of the user to do so (Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949.) It is also a popular misconception to think you can listen to anything so long as you don't pass it on. Have a look at the Radiocommunications Agency site http://www.radio.gov.uk/ and search for information sheet RA169.

From a practical point of view, so much air band listening goes on I don't think anyone is going to get very excited about it, particularly if it is for an eminently sensible purpose of improving your own RT standards. But you did ask! :)

[sharpshot]

Just don't take it on holiday to some countries where I've been and don't get a camera out either:D :eek:

[singaporegirl]

When I was burgled earlier this year :mad: one of the things the b*****ds took was my transceiver. (In fact, I think it was incidental, as they took my flight bag to carry all their booty away in, and the transceiver was lying in the bottom of it. At least they took my DC headset out first.)

When I claimed on my insurance for it the insurance company was very suspicious and wanted to know why I had it and where I got it from. In the end I sent them the Transair catalogue showing that these things are freely and legally available, and eventually they paid up (for that item anyway - don't get me going about insurance companies...):(

[Dave Gittins]

I've carted my ICOM 22 all over the world, whether I've intended to fly or not (the rest of the world's versions of R/T can often provide plenty of amusement) and have never had anybody bat an eyelid at it with one exception ...... Once at Dubai, on the way to Manchester, in mid '98 the security screening guys got quite excited until I explained that they actually sell the identical model of ICOM IC-A22E in the duty free shop in Dubai airport. ;)

[criticalmass]

Listen as much as you like. In the UK, Australia, Canada, the US, basically it's a free-for-all.

The authorities are far too busy with other more consequential matters than trying to "foxhunt" people using scanners to listen illegally to transmissions.

During WW2 the German signal corps had a saying about radio traffic of any sort (apologies for very poor German) "Alle funkverkehr ist landsveraat" which broadly translates as "all radio traffic is high treason".

A court in the US ruled that once a radio signal propogates through the air or in free space it is in the public domain and if a person has the necessary technical skill and facilities to receive it, either by direct intent or fortuitously, then the originator of that radio transmission has no recourse.

I listen all the time. I also downlink satellite transmissions, frequently in full view of the local Police and, on occasions, radio regulatory personnel. They couldn't care less.

[EyesToTheSkies]

(Here goes for the second time after I was logged out and lost all my text!!)

Yes, I believe it is illegal in this country although I agree that listening to R/T is useful in gaining confidence away from the aircraft. It is particularly useful if you don't get to fly that often (such as those of us that aren't lucky enough to get paid for flying!)

Things start to get a bit sticky if, for instance, you were to hear something "newsworthy" and pass it on (particularly for profit).

Listen to an appropriate frequency on the radio, such as your local airfield, rather than the airways frequencies. Try to critique what you hear. Bear in mind that if you are making a request to an ATCO then he/she has to have confidence in your abilities before granting permission (within reason). Very often they judge this ability by how competent you are on the R/T.

Good luck, and happy listening!

[BRL]

Last year at the Shoreham air show, my mate had a scanner, hand held, and had a copper standing next to him listening to it in the field they use as a car park. He was impressed, especially by the controller saying how much he enjoyed seeing the B17 and always brings a lump to his throat before wishing them luck flying home. Copper said he didn't think they were allowed to chat like that and thought RT was a lot stricter.!!!
The authorities are far too busy with other more consequential matters than trying to "foxhunt" people using scanners to listen illegally to transmissions.
Last year at Eastbourne, the police sent out radio messages saying there had been a UFO landed at Beachy Head and even provided bright lights that shone in the sky there. When the cars(public) turned up they were pulling everyone of them seeing if they had scanners as they were doing a purge on members of the public who listened in. They got quite a few as well i remember. At least 20 got caught with a portable scanner.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Last year at Eastbourne, the police sent out radio messages saying there had been a UFO landed at Beachy Head and even provided bright lights that shone in the sky there. When the cars(public) turned up they were pulling everyone of them seeing if they had scanners as they were doing a purge on members of the public who listened in.

Bastards.

[BRL]

Who? The old bill or the public :confused: :p

[LowNSlow]

Take your pick BRL. I think Joe Public on this occasion were being arseholes, the plods should have better things to do or hasn't anybody told them!

To prevent ***** raining down from above buy an Icom transceiver. Register it. It costs £20/year. No worries it's only a pint a month for 10 months :D

[Lost_luggage34]

Vintage_ATCO beat me to it with the link !

Absolutely spot on with the response i.e. it is technically illegal.

However, you have to be caught in the act and I have never heard of any such case.

[vintage ATCO]

I have never known any action taken against people listening to airband, and I wouldn't expect to unless someone was extremely silly, i.e., passing onto the media something they had heard, or, in the UK, streaming live ATC onto the Internet.

However, it is true what BRL said about Police 'stings', and I know of people who have been spoken to and reported to the RA for what they were listening to. I believe at least one case ended in prosecution.

There is a belief amongst some 'scannerists' that even being caught with a scanner with inappropriate frequencies programmed into the memory is enough to prove intent.

I dunno. Don't shoot the messenger.

But to get back on-topic and to Footsie, I don't think anyone is going to be stressed out by you improving your RT by listening. Enjoy. ;)

[propjockey]

As a past military comms officer and a currently licenced radio amateur, I can pretty much confirm that you are all right!

yes its illegal - the only legal thing you can listen to is the broadcast bands, time and frequency standards and ham radio bands.

However, your unlikely to be prosecuted for listening to ATC using a scanner - there are lines of people using em in cars outside the perimeter fence listening to my screw ups and lousy landings at EGPK - hope it keeps em amused!

Drive around a town centre with a scanner on the police freqs and its liable to quickly become attention as would be selling off the details heard to local papers etc.

Its all a bit of common sense!

Arriving at a local spot because of alien encounters from what you have heard on a police frequencydeserves to have you locked up anyway! I actually wonder what they expected!

Oh and don't say Aliens;) :D

[foghorn]

AFAIK, it is technically illegal under the Wireless Telegraphy Act to operate a receiver or transmitter in the airbands without both the radio and the operator being licenced.

Now, on the matter of being caught, if you're not making malicious transmissions, IMHO you will never be caught in a month of sundays. The police have much bigger fish to fry.

[englishal]

On the subject of streaming airband transmissions onto the Internet...Why do we in the UK see this as a big deal? It could prove to be a) entertaining, b) informative and c) a great learning tool and d) no advantage to anyone with malicious intent...

Cheers
EA:)

[Footsie]

A big thanks for all your replies. This was my first post on PPrune and it's great that so many are keen to help out.

I'm thinking seriously of transferring my PPL training to Naples in Jan/Feb 2003, mainly to avoid the British weather, so I guess I'll have a different R/T challenge over there. I'm sure there's nothing to it - but for me it's the one side of aviation that I had absolutely no knowledge about before I decided I should stop dreaming and start doing.

One final point on R/T - presumably, once I have an R/T licence it becomes completely legal to listen in?

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Footsie,

Prepare for some rapid-fire US R/T. Very professional there, but still good humoured. Quite a bit of exec. jet traffic to mix in with.

Several differences to CAP413. You will need to adjust back to our phraseology and format.

Enjoy, and don't forget to get the M1 visa before you go.

[jonathang]

Don't think many cops would arrest you for listening.

Especially if you say you are a trainee Pilot.

Just not a great idea to pass on info heard to the press during an Emergency.

I would not want to risk taking it through customs to another country though.

[StrateandLevel]

Most of the rules to which you refer have been motivated by the desire to catch people using televisions without a licence i.e its revenue related.

Policemen have no powers in relation to the WT Act. They may accompny RA Inspectors who are the ones with the authority.

It is not illegal to own a receiver or to use it. The deliberate reception of a signal not intended for you is illegal, designed to stop you listening to the authorities and telephone messages, but, if you don't tell anyone or act upon it how will they know? (keep the volume down!)

[gingernut]

Yes technically it is illegal to use a scanner, (but not to own one), but its horses for courses, and I do recall reading that the law enforcement agencies (the police usually) operate discretion, dependant on circumstances.

Walking around an airshow listening to the Utterly Butterly lot is hardly likely to attract any attention. Being stopped in a built up area with 2 screwdrivers, a car jack and a scanner would probably result in a choice for you - hand over the scanner for confiscation or face court proceedings.

However, very useful in developing an insight into R/T procedure.

[BRL]

With the great help from Sarah at the local paper, here is the story.......

UFO TO EARTH: YOU'RE NICKED!
Police set up an astonishing fake UFO sighting to trap people illegally tuning in to police radio.
They shone coloured lights into the night sky above the downs and put out hoax messages about flying saucer reports.
Car-loads turned up hoping to catch a glimps of aliens but instead, they found the boys in blue.
Officers quizzed them about how they had heard of the UFO and about illegally using scanners to listen to police messages.
Two disapointed UFO hunters had scanning equipment confiscated.
Other sky watchers escaped the trap, tipped off by CB radio.
To set their out of this world trap on the hills above Eastbourne, officers used 4 colour filter halogen lamps. Insp Martin Stevens admited the operation was bizarre but effective.
He said "scanning is a serious matter and illegal. Police need to keep radio conversations secret. We may carry out more operations like the UFO sighting."
(dated 12 sept 97)

[Crossedcontrols]

Be aware some scanners sold in Europe can receive the 800MHz band. In the USA this band is disabled for the same receivers (ICOM etc), and illegal not to be. It was to stop people listening to Analogue Cellular. I'm pretty sure it is still in force, even though the band is now used mainly by digital cellular, which can't be listened into using a simple scanner. So be carefull what you take to the USA.

CC

[BRL]

Insp Martin Stevens admited the operation was bizarre but effective.
He said "scanning is a serious matter and illegal. Police need to keep radio conversations secret. We may carry out more operations like the UFO sighting."
Funny that. Since I got my loft converted and installed a modern expensive midi-stereo unit, I can clearly pick up police transmissions throught Sussex and beyond. It only happens on that one in the loft, the others around the rest of the house are ok.
Its the traffic police I can hear not the locals, it bleeds all over the weaker stations and between stations. :confused:

[ratsarrse]

This used to happen to me with a crappy radio alarm clock. It seemed to somehow get tuned slightly off-station. I would wake up to continuous hissing interspersed with occasional talking. Quite disconcerting really. I never could quite work out what people were talking about and only ever heard one side of the conversation.

[Keygrip]

Footsie - nobody has commented on your line One final point on R/T - presumably, once I have an R/T licence it becomes completely legal to listen in?
No difference, actually - as your aviation R/T licence is only to give you the legal authority to operate a licensed radio station as fitted to an aircraft.

Handheld radio and scanner etc. are not licensed for operating purposes.

[Keef]

Isn't there a separate licence now for a handheld? I seem to recall the CAA taking over from the RA the licensing of aircraft radios, reducing the aircraft licence fee slightly, and introducing a separate licence requirement for handhelds.

I queried the need for a separate licence for mine, and was told I didn't need one if I only used the handheld inside the aircraft.

Rather implies you can use a handheld elsewhere (though what callsign you'd use is beyond me).

[Rattus]

QUOTE: "Funny that. Since I got my loft converted and installed a modern expensive midi-stereo unit, I can clearly pick up police transmissions throught Sussex and beyond. It only happens on that one in the loft, the others around the rest of the house are ok."

BRL
You could try reporting your local polis (with callsigns) to the RCA for interfering with your listening pleasure. I believe all licensed operators have a statutory duty not to interfere with the broadcast bands.

:E

[StrateandLevel]

Several people in this thread have said: presumably if you hold a radio licence (meaning a FRTOL) its legal to listen.

Actually its not, the FRTOL entitles the holder to operate a radio station in any aircraft.

The radio station itself must also have a radio station licence whether it be in an aircraft, on the ground, or even a handheld transceiver.

An operator's licence (FRTOL) is only required for aircraft operation. Ground operation is covered by the radio station licence and in certain cases the operator may be required to hold an ATCO licence or a Certificate of Competence to operate.

[BRL]

Here we go. The offical view of the situation.

Thank you for your email.

I should give a prize to vintage ATCO for being spot on and directing others to the Radiocommunications Agency website (www.radio.gov.uk) RA169 regarding the use of radio scanners and the law in the UK.

In short you can use a scanner to listen to anything broadcast for general reception, radio amateurs, CB, weather and navigation broadcasts. Unless you are a police officer or work in the emergency services you are not allowed to listen to their communications. You can only listen to other services if you have the permission of the sender. The air show is a good example where the control tower frequencies are publicised and that would be considered permission.

Regards


So there you have it. :)

P.S. Steve, your' prize is in the post.... ;)

[vintage ATCO]

Blush. . . . . :D

[StrateandLevel]

As all civil aviation frequencies are published, it would appear to be legal to listen to all civil aeronautical transmissions.

[TheFox]

StrateandLevel

Can't agree, sorry. It is the first sentance that is more important.

You can only listen to other services if you have the permission of the sender

The airshow just being an example, and there is a difference between published and publicised. Also not all frequencys are published.

[RichyRich]

My boring 2p worth, vintage ATCO's link to the Radio Agnecy's site says:


Anyone who intends to listen to radio transmissions should be aware of the following:

A licence is not required for a radio receiver as long as it is not capable of transmission as well (The Wireless Telegraphy Apparatus (Receivers) (Exemption) Regulations 1989 (SI 1989 No 123). The exception to this is that it is an offence to listen to unlicensed broadcasters (pirates) without a licence. Licences are not issued for this purpose.

Although it is not illegal to sell, buy or own a scanning or other receiver in the UK, it must only be used to listen to transmissions meant for GENERAL RECEPTION. The services that you can listen to include Amateur and Citizens' Band transmissions, licensed broadcast radio and weather and navigation broadcasts.

It is an offence to listen to any other radio services unless you are authorised by a designated person to do so.


So, what is a navigation broadcast?

At the end of the day, like everyone else says, noone will (or rather is unlikely to) lock you up for listening to your local tower. I sometimes tune in to Heathrow approach and listen to a one-sided conversation as the pilots report in, or reply. Gets tedious.

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

So, what is a navigation broadcast?

VOLMET or ATIS, I would imagine. Oh, and I suppose for completeness, VORs, NDBs and DMEs... :rolleyes:

[RichyRich]

I'd probably agree, noting that Volmet is boradcast on 'normal' COM channels, and my local ATIS on the VOR. So you'd have to listen in, find out if its ATIS, VOR etc, and climb off: sounds like Catch 22? Especially if you're scanning.

Anyway, I use my scanner thingy (I can't even recall the make - some Jap thing) to hone my already lousy RT skills just before my lessons, and listen to the ATIS so I know what to expect when the instructor is breathing down my neck ;)

[rtl_flyer]

A handheld transcever (such as ICOM A22) must be licenced, if you have an aircraft radio licence it may be covered by that licence. But IT MUST be listed on that licence.
Having said that, a PPL (with operator and installation licence) is still only licenced to use the equipment (ie the handheld) in the air - and while operating the aircraft on the ground.
To operate an airband radio (station) you must hold a ground station licence and operators certificate/licence.

[BRL]

Revived to answer Mazzys question regarding his highly illegal new hobby... :D

[Airbus Girl]

So let me get something straight.
You can listen to things on a radio only if you have permission of the sender.
So does that make it illegal to listen to Radio 1?

Do some airlines not have a channel (or at least, used to) where you could listen in to RT?

I would have thought from all the posts, that if its just a receiver you have, and you are only listening on published ATC frequencies, that that is legal.

If you act on any info heard, or listen to emergency channels such as police, then you are doing something illegal.

I have been to countless airports where they have the ATC on at the flying clubs, and also at big airports everyone listens in - the crew bus drivers, the handling agents, etc. Surely they are not all illegal???

If so, surely the law should be changed!

[ThePirateKing]

Arrrggh! NO! :*

You can freely receive "general reception" transmissions. This includes commercial and BBC radio stations, etc.

Listening to any other kind of transmission, including emergency services, ATC, etc. is illegal unless you have an applicable licence.

All this is explained on the Ofcom Website. Stick "Ofcom receive-only" into Google.

Your FRTOL only entitles you to operate a fixed installation in an aircraft. This is covered in LASORS section B.

Later,

TPK:ok:

[mazzy1026]

I think it's safe to say it is illegal and having an FRTOL is no way around it - just do it and dont get caught and dont be a t*t and use it in a money making evil way!

I made this post in my diary, apologies for the duplication but it's better in here:

The thing is, today I am taking my girlfriend to the flying school - she is gonna sit by the apron on the picnic tables whilst I do circuits. She has never been in that environment before and she is looking forward to it. I was gonna give her my little scanner, just so she could listen in to me in the circuit - but now I am 50/50. If I were to do it then, perhaps I would give her earphones, as to not make it too obvious. I cant see the harm personally, as there is one in the lounge anyway that everyone can hear (she wont even know what the hell it all means anyway! (sorry luv)) :E

BRL: good to see you posting in there again :)

Maz

edit: I will be turning myself in this evening at the local police station ;)