gliders and transponders

[have another coffee]

In the netherlands gliders are obliged to squawk mode a/c everytime they are flying above 1200 ft. This rule comes into effect by 1-1-2003.
The reason, be-sides european regulations, is to enhance safety and avoid mid-air collisions.
The ironical thing is it is MOST STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to squawk below the schiphol tma........?
Most glider flying here takes place in aispace class G en E mostly controlled by the military. Up to FL 65 during week-days and FL 95 during weekends. In this airspace hardly any commercial flights take place, although there is fast military traffic.
In class E there is no radio contact between controller and glider. On a busy day there will be as much as 150 gliders flying cross country all squawking without you knowing where it is going.
From an ATC point of view can anyone comment on this rule making? Will it enhance safety for you as controller?
The glider community is very afraid if after some nice days next year the rule will be changed where the investment in a transponder will be worthless or worse more restrictive airspace measures will take effect seriously threatening the glider-sport here.

[caba]

Hi!

I am both a controller and a glider pilot from Germany. I don´t like the idea of every glider having to squawk generally at all...from either side. First, there are not many certified transponders available suitable for gliders (they use a lot of electrical power). But most important is the fact that on a nice weekend there ARE already so many targets shown on my screen, that I can hardly see my IFR-traffic. If every glider would have to squawk when flying in controlled airspace I would go mad because I would see even less. Not to speak of our famous P1 system, which can only track 600 targets, if I am informed correctly.

In my view a transponder for gliders only makes sense if you would like to get clearance through an otherwise "off-limits" airspace. I cannot issue a clearance without seeing you, but with a transponder I could, depending on the traffic.

[Chilli Monster]

As an ex Glider Pilot and current ATCO this has to be the most crazy piece of over regulation yet.

They're VFR, outside of CAS, keeping a good lookout. They will avoid anything they see. All it will cause is a mass of clutter on already busy radar screens.

Another Euro Joke, without a doubt. Obviously the regulators never asked ATC or the gliding community, the people it will actually affect.

[have another coffee]

Although the rule is first introduced by the Netherlands, other countries are to follow. I believe Germany has delayed introduction till 2005 as is the case for UK. On what level and arguments are the discussions being played in those counties?

Transponder equipment used to have huge electrical supply. The newest designs are good enough to have a demand of around 0,9a/hr on 12 v. This means around 6 hr flight on a standard battery. Although none of these transponders are allowed in the JAA countries cause they have some limitations on transmitting power and amount of quiries they can handle from radars/tcas etc. But its a matter of time before thats fixed.
]

[chrisN]

In the UK, almost all gliding is in class G. We can cross class D with permission (not much tried, and often permission is not given anyway), and some bits of class A without contacting ATC.

At present, almost no UK gliders have transponders.

The CAA has encouraged manufactures to produce a lightweight, low-cost (and low power) transponder. Trials were due this summer - I have not heard if they wer carried out or whether successful.

If low power, they won't meet ICAO 100 watts signal which used to be required - is it still? I don't know the latest status of that, or if that will limit their use and legality - any experts able to say?

The aim is for battery charge to last long enough for a long glider/balloon/hang glider/microlite flight (in practice I think few other than gliders stay airborne for 5 or more hours), but every time I asked what effect increasing TCAS interrogations would have on battery life I got no answer.

[overeasy]

Just maybe you will show up on someone's TCAS and one day it might just save your life. Not all commercial traffic operates in class A all the time and nontransponding aircraft are a real hazard

[chrisN]

My earlier response was trying to answer questions raised by the original posting, not express opinions about the merits of the case.

As it happens, if the lightweight transponder were available and did what it is supposed to, and if I could fit one and run it in my glider, I would get one - I fly from a gliding site closer to CAS than most, and we do see some heavy metal (and some fast military stuff too) in class G as well as plenty of GA traffic. I think TCAS and the transponder for gliders etc. is a potential life saver - about once every 10, 20 or 30 years perhaps. (There have been no collisions between TCAS equipped A/C and non-transpponder gliders in the UK AFAIAA, but we must be getting closer to the first one.)

There is an increasing trend in gliding fatal accident data for collisions to appear, but so far (in the UK) they have all involved non-TCAS-equipped traffic, usually other gliders. Fatal accidents from other causes are more numerous at present and so have had more focus. To the extent that collisions now have a higher profile, solutions other than transponders are sought, mainly improving lookout and airmanship training. I believe that most people would consider that where technology could make the greatest effect would be in finding a proximity warning for glider/glider and other G.A./glider conflicts. Such a device would benefit all GA.

Similarly, although many people in ATC and the airlines may consider that conflicts with non-transponder-equipped gliders (and other GA traffic) pose a real threat, the facts are that almost all pax fatalities occur from other causes. I don't have the data to evaluate costs/benefits of fitting all GA A/C with transponders compared with other ways of spending money on safety, but my guess is that for a few GA (including glider) pilots who live close to CAS it might be a good bet but for most in class G, and for most pax, there are better cost/benefit priorities.

[niknak]

Completely bonkers idea!:rolleyes:

Quite apart from the fact that the SSR clutter on radar would drive us to distraction, the lateral and height envelope of a manouvering glider is so unpredictable it would be of little use to us in atc or a TCAS equipped aircraft.

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in my experience the UK glider fraternity generally operate to very high standards, keeping us informed well in advance of their intentions/operations, and also generally manage to stay away from similarly busy airports/airfields.

[have another coffee]

Referring to my earlier post concerning available equipment, there is one transponder available from Becker which is approved confrom JTSO standards. Cost is around 2200 euro ex tax. Then the altitude encoder and installation comes on top of that. Now I don't want the discussion to turn towards a cost versus benefit argument. That way we never gonna end it, although I'm afraid that's the main argument here.
Concerning mid-air collisions with gliders I know of only one accident in France where a A320 hit an glider during decent. Collisions between gliders mainly take place cause of mis-judgement during thermalling (no mountains in the Netherlands). GA aircraft carrying a transponder will only avoid accidents with TCAS equipped aircraft. The airspace they fly in, hardly any aircraft carries one. The schiphol TMA and associated airspace is all class A and its STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to turn the transponder on below that !
So in the end GA aviation aircraft are gonna carry a transponder in airspace where the see-and-avoid principle is the holy grail to avoid collisions. In my opinion carrying a transponder will lead to the end of that principle. If there are many transponders around a controller will probably want to vector IFR traffic around it. Pilots in TCAS equipped aircraft are getting nervous of all the symbols. Then there is only one solution left; physicly seperate the traffic by imposing restrictions on airspace. In a small country like ours that's basicly the end of the glider-flying.
I fully admit that I also get a little nervous when approaching an airfield through uncontrolled airspace with 250 knots, configuring, talking to ATC in the mean time peering through small windows to look for other traffic.
I see some catch 22 situation in here. But how, for example is it handled in the USA where lots of commercial traffic proceeds to uncontrolled airfields?

[chrisN]

There are parts of the USA where transponders in gliders are the norm, perhaps mandatory. If they are flying big modern gliders with wide tolerance of weight, the cost and weight penalty is a small proportion of the total, and multiple batteries may suffice even for long flights, particularly if the rate of interrogations is low. Maybe an American colleague can elaborate.

It seems difficult to convince the UK CAA, or European counterparts (and EASA is going to be the ruling body), that transponders in class G are of very limited use. They have already signed up to the legislation and it is only a matter of when.

For a second hand glider worth about £4000 or less like mine, where I am already at max permitted weight and have no room in my instrument panel for anything more, adding a package costing say £3000 (5000 Euro) of transponder plus alt encoder plus installation plus batteries, and perhaps 4kg weight, is physically impossible and the cost is disproportionate. If/when Mode S becomes mandatory, the cost goes up again - I understand that the cheapest such transponder available now costs about £6000 (10,000 Euro) for the complete package and installation.

If the concept of a lightweight, low cost transponder is realised, with a remote switch/selector, it might be just feasible to put the main box in a stowage compartment behind me, have the mini-panel lose in the cockpit, and I would have to lose some weight or fly over the limit to accommodate it.

[2 sheds]

ChrisN

A couple of points...
Try insisting a bit more if you want to enter Class D airspace, or telephone afterwards to find out the reason for refusal.
Could you advise what radio callsign(s) you would use in a UK glider?

2 S

[chrisN]

2 sheds:

I use "Glider Charlie Charlie Victor" or "Glider 960" (two different gliders).

"Charlie Charlie Victor" is the registered call sign of one glider's fixed radio and shown on its original licence from the Radiocommunications Agency . The designation is derived from a unique tri-graph allocated by the BGA, which every glider has similarly if it has a BGA C of A, and it is marked on the wing and fuselage of this glider. I add the prefix "Glider" for clarity when calling ATC.

"960" is a competition number purchased from the BGA for the other glider, and is marked on the tail of this aircraft. (Competition numbers are an alternative to the tri-graph which every BGA glider has, and are mandatory for certain gliding competitions. There are too few for every UK glider to have one.) This radio is an Icom handheld. I am advised by the CAA that the Radiocommunications Agency dropped registered callsigns for hand helds, even though they are licensed and the owner might choose to use one in only one aircraft, because they are portable and could be used in other planes. If I were to use this Icom in another glider, I would keep the callsign "960" because as far as I am aware it travels with the radio, although no callsign is shown on the licence.

The CAA took over licensing of these radios from the RA 2-3 years ago.

You didn't ask, but for the record both radios have correct licences for their use, as does their operator (me).

Having said how I would like to see some sort of proximity warning system for gliders/GA, I have now stumbled across TPAS. see


http://www.surecheck.net/tpas/overview.html

It needs transponders in all participating aircraft. Dunno much more. Has anyone experienced it?

[Scott Voigt]

As for gliders in the US. The only time you would be required to have a transponder, is if you were going to need to go into class B or possibly C airspace. Most of the operations take place in either G or E and thus need no transponder. We have gliders on the edge of class B all of the time and we normally don't see them

regards

[LeadSled]

All,

Without weighing in to the for’s and against’s, Micro Air in Australia have a very nice, very light ( fits a small instrument hole) and very cheap ( about AUD$2000 in Australia) TSO’d transponder.

A number have already been sold in Europe for gliders and motor gliders.

Tootle pip !!