Aerobatic training

[Tango Oscar]

Having only the skills test to pass(It's sounds so easy when I say it like that) before I become the proud owner of a PPL, I've started to think about what's next. I intend to do an IMC rating, but not until I have built up some more hours P1. Something that suprises me is spin traing being removed from the PPL sylibus. Hopefully, with the correct stall training etc you should never inadvertantly enter a spin, however it would be reassuring to know how to recover should it happen.

So, I think I've decided to find an instructor, with a suitable aircraft, and learn how to recover from a spin, and maybe learrn one or two basic aerobatic manouvers. Can anyone recommend a good instructor, and advise how much it is likely to cost me(I guess this depends on the aircraft). I currently fly from Biggin Hill, but would be prepared to travel if the quality of the instruction warrented it.

Thanks in advance.

[paulo]

There'll be a few more here - the aeros addicts - that will definitely say you'll learn 1000% more about handling from doing an aeros course. I myself am fairly crap at the finesse, but seeing the world from a different perspective (any perspective, as it sometimes turns out) really helps spacial awareness.

From my experience of finding schools etc, one factor to bear in mind is that you'll probably come out of aeros training deciding that - to feel current - you'll want to stay with the aircraft type you were aeros trained on. So figure out whether your training choice (financial, location, availability - all that usual PPL stuff) will fit for you after you are signed off.

Welcome to vociferous pub debates, such as "the use of the rudder as you lob it over the top of a stall turn." :) And despite all that theoretical stuff, it's damn good fun even if you're rubbish. :)

[FlyingForFun]

And paulo, how about the use of rudder in an Immelman! ;) (Hello BRL :D )

I can't help with finding an instructor, since all the real aeros I've done have been the States. (If you want to do some aeros in Arizona, though, let me know and I'll point you in the right direction.)

Paulo has a good point about what you're actually going to do with your aeros training. If all you want is some more confidence and a better understanding of how your spamcan flies, then I'd guess that something like a Cessna 152 Aerobat would be fine. I did spin training in a PA28-140, which was ideal since most of my flying at the time was on the very similar PA28-161. (PA28-140 can't do much in the way of aeros apart from spin, though.)

On the other hand, if you're planning on actually doing any aerobatic flying yourself, you'll want to be trained on the type you'll be flying. One of the biggest shocks I had was trying to loop a Pitts after having done all my aerobatic training on a much-lower-powered (but still great fun!) Great Lakes - and stalling at the top of the loop because the controls were so much more sensitive than I was used to. FNG has been kind enough to let me aerobat his Cap10 a couple of times, and I have to admit I don't feel comfortable with having to look after the engine - all the aerobatic training I've had has been on aircraft with a constant-speed prop where the engine pretty much takes care of itself. And so on.

But whatever you do, you'll enjoy it - aeros are great fun! :D

FFF
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[FNG]

I entirely second that, speaking as someone who is rubbish at aerobatics but still enjoys doing them immensely. There are several options for aeros training at White Waltham, on different aerobatic types, and there's a concentration there of very experienced aerobatic instructors. Look at the links section of the WLAC website for some suggestions. Expect to pay from about £150 up to about £200 an hour for dual depending on aircraft type. Another option might be Headcorn, with Tiger Moths and Stampes. The Robin tribe at Rochester might have an aerobat in their midst, but I don't know what aeros instruction, if any, is available there.

PS: FFF, in an ideal world I'd like my Cap 10 to have a wobbly prop (except when the engineering bills come in), but you get used to aerobatting without one, especially once you've snagged the redline airspeed.

[FormationFlyer]

Just to correct an urban myth here...

Spin Training has ALWAYS been in the syllabus. It has NEVER been removed.

Ex11A - Spin Avoidance

MANDATORY. Recovery from incipient spins. (Incipient spin being entered from clean stall @ stall warner full rudder + back elevator - when uncommanded roll occurs - unload).

Ex11B - Fully Developed Spins

Optional.

Your training organisation MUST provide for 2 hours of stall/spin training under JAR. That means Ex10B.1,10B.2 & 11A.

If you HAVE NOT received ex 11A then you seriously want to go somewhere else for your training in future...NEVER go back there again as they have obviously not given you FULL training as required under JAR FCL-1 AMC.

I recently stopped instructing at a school and one of the reasons I was extremely unhappy was that they had an extremely slack attitude (read: unbelieveably unacceptable attitude) towards ex11A. (i.most instructors didnt do it and the CFI failed to ensure it was...). Personally I dont want to be associated with such establishments as an instructor.

On the subject of fully developed spins - your flight instructor(s)should have offered you the opportunity of full developed spins as part of your training, unless of course your school flies a/c not cleared to spin or does not allow spinning in club a/c.

However....ex 11A should be taught in ALL circustances in ALL aircraft types....

Sorry for the serious tone....but it does annoy me that people are missing vital training...

[FlyingForFun]

FF,

Although your point is a good one, I don't think there's any doubt about what we're discussing on this thread. I've always heard the term "spin training" colloquially used to mean fully developed spins, and I'm sure this is what's being referred to on this thread.

Nevertheless, thanks for the reminder that we should all have received training in the incipient spin and its recovery. And anyone who's not completely happy with this exercise is opening themselves up to extremely dangerous situations.

FFF
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[Tango Oscar]

As FFF suggests, I did mean training in recovering from an established spin, not just at the incipient stage - sorry for not making myself clear. Althgough I don't remember being offered a lesson in full spin recoverys during my PPL training....

All my training to date has been in a Tomahawk, which I thought was not cleared for spinning, however, after reading the POH, it's seems it is, but only in the clean configuration.

I think for the time being, I only want to learn some aeros to improve my general handling skills, so I guess a PA28 or Aerobat would be best.

Thanks all for the info/advice.......

[FormationFlyer]

FFF - I posted due to the statement 'spin traing being removed from the PPL sylibus' - just got carried away!!!! sorry!

TO - a PA28 wont fit the bill of basic aeros - for that you need to find somewhere with an aerobatic robin, slingsby, bulldog or c152 aerobat (which tend to be the most common types around) or other aerobatic a/c. And beware - its only PA28 140 that are cleared for spinning.

As for the Tomahawk...depends on your instructor as to whether or not they would be prepared to spin it. I wouldnt. Most of the tales about the PA38 come from at least one infamous spin incident.

Hope you find somewhere good to train. I have found ex. mil insturctors v. good.