Sorry, Just Trying To Be Helpfull!

[RAFAT]

Returning from the South of France yesterday to BHX, I decided that to save a little time I would request a different routing from KATHY (South of the Isle of Wight) onwards. As many of you ATCers will know, above FL170 one has to take a more Easterly route via MID & OCK, whereas I was quite happy to descend and route via SAM & WCO.

With that idea in mind, and totally sincere intent, wishing to give plenty of advance notice of my intended request, about 100NM South of Kathy I contacted what I knew would be my first London frequency on VHF2. The frequency was not at all busy, so I contacted the controller, at this stage I was simply advising that I would be making a route change request when I eventually got transferred by Brest ATC, not making an actual request at that point, obviously. After ignoring my first transmission, my second was met with what appeared to be complete disgust and puzzlement, and I left pretty sharply with my tail firmly between my legs!!

When transferred by Brest ATC to the same London controller sometime later, I was told in no uncertain terms that she did not appreciate my earlier contact, and I should not make such requests on busy London frequencies. Well firstly, I have much experience of London ATC, and if I hear gaps between transmissions of 20-30 secs (which I originally did) it is surely not a busy frequency. Secondly, as I said earlier, I was only trying to be helpful, giving plenty of notice of what I intended to request on first contact, instead of leaving it all lastminute.com.

I did apologise, and explained my reasoning, but was I wrong in doing what I did?

Your best ATC advice please....

[Scott Voigt]

RFAT

If the controller was making a couple of transmissions a minute, then with the colatoral duties that need to be done off frequency, the controller could very well have been busy. The class that I taught yesterday saw that they were indeed very busy even though the freq. didn't sound overly busy...

regards

[Lon More]

RAFAT
It is probable that she had not yet received details of your flight from Brest.
If she was busy then your request would have been an annoyance - search for the flight plan etc. It would have been better to advise Brest of your request and asked them to pass it on.

Good thinking, but no cigar

[5milesbaby]

A gap of 20 to 30 seconds between transmissions can mean a quiet frequency, but you'd have to continue listening for at least 5 mins to be totally sure. Also, it would be unknown to you if several aircraft were at the transfer point either off or onto the frequency, so you could have delayed an instruction with your 'frequency usage'.

Although difficult, it would have been best to try and advise Brest to pass it on, or made your request just after first contact.

Couple of points and questions, in your first transmission did you just rattle it all off, or just check in with callsign?? Either still would have been confusing as no details would have been received.

I take it you were a prop job, as jets cannot go up the west side, and what FL were you cruising at (ie how much descent did you need)

I have also deduced that you were routing via Barlu, however, if you descended to FL170 before the boundary you would re-route thro' Ortac-SAM, and this can be a different controller working 129.425MHz. If the sector was split, then little amounts of traffic can still give a busy controller.

We do apprechiate being given prior notice so letting us know one way or another is right. Do you carry a mobile phone in the cockpit???? If so, the best one is to contact either flight plans, desk supervisor, or flow control at Swanwick and let them know, they are usually clued up and pass it on!!!

[Numpo-Nigit]

Sorry you were chastised "on-air", but an August weekend is never a good time to try non-standard procedures!

As 5mb has indicated, the route SAM - WCO is only permitted for propeller-driven aircraft which have not filed a higher level, so I'd guess your request was a non-starter on two counts.

For your future reference, that attractive short cut can be made available at quiet times, but the coordination requirements make it a real "no-no" in all but the quietest traffic scenario. At all times it is probably best to wait for it to be offered, rather than request it, as it is often one of the sectors further along that is too busy to agree.

We don't make anybody go the long way round if it can be avoided - trust me, I'm a controller!!!

[RAFAT]

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.

I had considered advising the Brest controller of my request, but assumed (probably wrongly) that he would simply ask me make that request when transferred.

5mb - As I talk to London quite frequently I knew not to rattle off my request straight away, I simply checked in with.. "London Control, ABC1234, box 2, request." I think you're probably right that the controller had no details of me at that point, and that is why I was initially ignored.

We were a DHC8-400 routing TLS-BHX at FL240, and part of my reasoning was that I wanted to assist by being at the correct level (FL170) by KATHY, therefore carrying out a gentle descent somewhere between BARLU & KATHY as we crossed the FIR boundary.

Yes we did have a phone, but the thought only came to me during the flight, not on the ground beforehand. With this in mind, is there a London Info frequency where such requests can be made?

Numpo - Why is that route only permitted for prop aircraft? is it because of the lower FL associated with that route?

[Itsonyatv]

RAFAT Numpo-Nigit has summed up the situation nicely. We only receive live estimates on traffic entering our airspace 10 minutes before the boundary so a call before this time will involve a search for your flight plan details. 5mb's suggestion to use your mobile phone to ring the centre is not a sensible option. Ideally you should send a CHG message before you take off or failing this a call to London Information (assuming you can get a word in on a summer weekend!:D ) is probably your best bet.

[West Coast]

It makes you wonder that if she had the time to chew you out, was she really that busy, or was she neglecting other duties to do so.

[Airline Tycoon]

RAFAT

I've seen this type of request or similiar, involving the pilots calling on box 2, before. I have never known it to be met with the sort of response you got, Sorry.

That type of early call is helpful, but we do not want to encourage it as it will become the norm!!!

If you have a good Planner or Assistant, the moment the estimate is received they will be looking at the best and quickest route for you.

The best bet is to make the request as you call up.
Trust us, we want you through our sectors and to your destination as quick as you do!!!

[canberra]

i cant believe what ive just read. are you seriously telling people to use a mobile phone in flight? how many times have i read in the paper about slf getting done for using a mobile phone in flight and you guys are telling the aircraft captain that he should use a mobile phone in flight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its called condoning an offence. and if i ever get done for using a mobile phone in flight i'll produce this in court in my defence.

[5milesbaby]

canberra, I do believe that some airlines actually issue their pilots with said items, and they are REGULARLY used from the cockpit. Weather the usage is permitted mid-flight I do not know, but on some aircraft, first class passengers have the 'luxury' of a personal phone for a 'small' cost, so there must be ways and means. It was just a thought.

RAFAT, nice aircraft!! However, slow descent FL170 lvl Kathy is also out. The base of B11 at the moment (while the Mil take a 'holiday') is FL200, and only drops lower 7nm b4 Kathy!! It would have been possible to drop then though and go up the west side. Coming in thro ORTAC at FL170 would solve all conflict.

I think its non-jet traffic only on R41 to aid the 'lows and slows' to not take all day getting there, and keep them out of the way of the TMA. Although you fall into the catergory able to do so, I would never consider you 'low and slow', and if other traffic is also on the west route, would gently try to persuade you to avoid it.

[atco-matic]

well if it had been me you had called on your box2, I would have got the assistant to amend the flight plan and got the planner to coordinate you with TC vaton... whats the problem? descend you north of barlu to FL200, and then to FL170 when you are at kathy... you dont say what time of day it was, but if the sector was split then I would have had to cajole the other half into being cooperative too, but if i had been doing it then you would have almost certainly gone up the west side... just takes a bit of imagination thats all!

[RAFAT]

5mb - Indeed a very nice aircraft, and one which has opened a few eyes along our routes, pilots and controllers alike. Unfortunately though, our pax still take one look at those props :eek: and think it's 30 years old!!! I hope they are pleasantly surprised though when they arrive at TLS only 1hr28mins after leaving BHX!

One important thing I forgot to mention in my earlier posts was that, although I got a telling off, the controller did grant my request, and the profile we followed was that which atco-matic described, enabling us to route BARLU-KATHY-SAM-NORRY-WCO-GROVE1B. The time of day was approx 1645L Sunday.

Looking at the chart, I see what you mean about the base of B11, FL210 being the lowest available all the way to SAM, (eats a little humble pie for not noticing this on Sunday) so how would the profile that atco-matic described, and indeed what we did, be allowed without going via ORTAC first to get down to FL170 for R41?

I could ask the Company to change our RPL to always go via ORTAC and the west side, but I know not everyone would want to take this alternative lower route everytime. My desire on the day was based on trying to catch up on a slot delay out of TLS, and less headwind at FL170.

[Take 5]

Well Mr SmartyPants atco-matic , looks like you aren't the only one with " a bit of imagination " as RAFAT got exactly the treatment you describe.

The point of the post is to establish how best to request this. Calling out of the blue on one of the busiest afternoons in the year on possibly the busiest weekend afternoon sector, is not the best way, especially when told to STANDBY (which it sounds like RAFAT didn't hear) and then calling again !!

We are all here to help and happy to do so, if the request cannot be included in your flight plan, then London Info are the best placed to receive such requests and pass them on. If their frequency is very busy, then you can bet the Hurn Sectors are as well.

[5milesbaby]

RAFAT, B11's base is FL200, and can be highered due to activity in EGD036 underneath (based on Portland QNH). At the moment, and usually every weekend anyway, EGD036 is cold so FL200 is available. When approaching Kathy the base drops to FL110 as R1 (ORTAC-MID) and R84 (ORTAC-HAZEL) cross over, and then at SAM N866 and R8 also come into play, so plenty of CAS out there!!!!!!

[fourthreethree]

West Coast

Thank God someone still has the will to assist in this job. I agree totally, we work in a service industry, and the airlines/pilots are our customers, to whom we try to offer the best service available.

It sounds to me that RAFAT was doing his utmost to try to be helpful, and a good controller would recognise this rather than get annoyed with the request. If the request was not possible, a simple "sorry, unable to comply with request, speak to you later" would be more appropriate. How long does that take?

RAFAT

Just by posting this topic I believe you have shown a very professional attitude, I only wish there were more like you up there. In my opinion you did the right thing to make the request, but I reckon the controller was put out by getting a call from an aircraft about whom she had no details, thus a change of route when no route details are available could be confusing.
Hopefully you do not find us all as unfreindly.

[Expeditedescent]

RAFAT,

As someone who has probably worked you on many occassions being a COWLY/WELIN person I must say first of all the DHC8-400s are superb aircraft, and the climb performance has helped a number of times against Mil Crossers in the DTY corridor.

I'm not really sure why the GROVE arrival via WCO is restricted to FL170 or below, and it would be possible if cruising at FL210 or below to get a direct CPT-HON routeing.

As FL210 or below you are within TC airspace after leaving the Hurn Sector, and intra-TC co-ordination is much easier than complex re-routes, level changes and the like our collegues at NERC have to endure with their electronic wizardry.
It really depends on who is sitting on COWLY at the time......I have personally taken West side traffic at 190 and even from LMS descending to the normal FL220, it is really dependant on traffic at the time.

As a humble TC bod, I would suggest that perhaps if you asked when trasferred to Hurn if a direct routeing would be available and state that you would be prepared to descend if necessary to accomodate the re-route, you may have had more luck.

Just wanted to add too what a pleasant bunch of crew British European have at Birmingham, on all fleets, always willing to help and very polite.......also excellant RT discipline and good airmanship.
I would love to experience a fam flight in one of those 400s, any ideas on how we could arrange one, after all we are working the aircraft multiple times daily, it would be nice to know what it can and can't do.....especially as it is SOOOOOOOO different from other Dash 8 variants.

Cheers

PS: Actually I would like to add that all scheduled airline crews based at Brum are excellent.......most seem to have a good awareness of the TC sectors, and help us out quite a lot.

[111]

RAFAT, the way I recall it was as follows:
You called on freq using callsign only, as I was not expecting you I asked you to repeat callsign and report position. You replied(100+ miles S of Barlu) adding that you were on Box no.2. I then asked why were you calling on freq was it at the request of Brest Control? I did not receive a reply to this transmission. Couple of mins later you called again stating that you wished to change your route to go via SAM WCO etc., with no mention of destination, FL, a/c type, all informaton I felt I then had to prise out of you wasting unnecessary time.
During this time my strip board was building up, the planner was getting busy and the LAS(Local Area Supervisor) was hovering about looking worriedly at the radar, all signs that I was about to get very busy, you were not a priority, I told you to stand by.
By the time you were transferred from Brest the worst of the traffic had passed and we were able to co-ordinate your request with the appropriate sectors.
I did snap at you, sorry, but I needed to get across that free-calling a London airways freq should not be encouraged, even if the freq seems only moderately busy. It is during the gaps in RT that we are able to make intersector/centre telephone calls, update strip displays, and most importantly this is our valuable thinking time needed to develop our tactical plan.
At the time you did say you were only trying to help, to which I replied that I did appreciate that but in future to wait until you have been transferred to the freq before making such requests. I'm sure the reasoning for that is now clear from previous posts, we only receive a/c details a short time before that a/c is transferred and waiting until that time saves on unnecessary questioning.

[Lon More]

I think, reading 11's reply, that you were also at the limits of r/t coverage. Although it might seem strange that we can hear you or you can hear us but two way is not possible, this is because, at some units, it is possible to receive from 2 or more sites simultaneously whilst only transmitting from one,

If you had advised Brest that you wished to change your flight plan, they should pass the change on.

Personally, i'd say, Remind me when you are transferred and, dependant on workload, would deal with it when and if possible.

My personal pet hate is those duckheads who come on a very busy freq. and immediately ask for either direct routings or ride reports

[RAFAT]

433 - Thankyou for your comments. I think I'm just one of those pilots that realizes that although we are your customers, and in theory the customer is always right, direct/different routings, track shortening, alternative cruising levels, and many more options given to us by ATC should be appreciated, and not taken for granted.

Expeditedescent - You are indeed correct about the 400 being soooooo different to the 200/300s. Although we are obviously behind the performance of some jets used on UK Regional flights, A319/320, 737 etc, the aircraft is extremely flexible, with many different climb profiles at our disposal, and if you need us to use this flexibility to assist, as in your DTY example, we are willing to oblige. Sorry for boring everybody with a little detail, but, for example, on all but the hottest days, whatever our pax load (up to 78), we can achieve any desired climb rate between 1000 - 5000 fpm and perhaps a little more. We climb with the props at a cruise rpm of 850 instead of the aircraft's recommended 900 rpm climb setting, and we keep the pitch angle around the +5 degree mark instead of climbing in IAS mode at 185kts as per the manufacturers recommendation. These little variances, which generally give us 2000-3000 fpm at 200-210 kts, help to improve passenger comfort and shorten the sector times.

You may be interested to know that on occasions where we have stepped climbs, in the intermediate level off we have to pull the power levers nearly all the way back to flight idle to avoid busting the Vmo (max operating speed) pointer! and as every inch of power lever movement needs a handful of rudder trim to compensate, it can get uncomfortable and messy. In such instances you may only see us climbing initially at about 1000 fpm, it's not because we can't do more, we're just trying to avoid these large power lever/trim changes, and the subsequent discomfort when in a stepped climb situation. I'm looking forward to the day when I get the chance to do an empty ferry flight, and cleared quickly all the way to our max FL250 cruising level, just to see what she is really capable of. At destination, such flexibilty can also be utilised during the approach phase, the 400 will come down & slow down very quickly, affording us more options than our jet colleagues.

As far as jump seat experience is concerned Expedite, it is possible, and always a pleasure - check your private messages.

111 - Hello again. I think the one lesson I've learnt from what your colleagues have said, is that I was unaware that you would not have had my details when I called, but I know now. In my very first post here, you will see that I thought you ignored my request transmission, this is when you must have asked why I was calling, and was it at the request of Brest ATC, I did not hear that one so obviously did not reply. I therefore waited a couple of minutes (when I assumed you were working out who I was) before transmitting again. I made no mention of type, destination FL etc because a) I thought you knew my details, and b) blocking the airwaves with such details would have defeated my initial intent of wanting to assist. So obviously I take away from here the useful knowledge that my details are not known all the way down route, and, as Lon More and others have said, passing my request to Brest in the first instance would have been the best option.

Once again, thankyou all for your valuable comments.

[Slippers]

RAFAT,

Following on a little from what Expedite had to say, I would like to point out that NORRY - WCO - HON at FL170 is not always the easiest routing to accomodate. FL170 is a commonly used level in the CPT area for traffic routing eastbound off G1 to either BPK or DVR, and then as you turn towards HON you're head on to all the traffic heading southbound into the London TMA and everything climbing out of Birmingham and East Midlands heading for COWLY and CPT. Whereas if you're routing via HEMEL - WELIN you'll fit nicely into the northbound flow that routes up that side if the 'airway'.

I see from your post that you made your request on a sunday afternoon and at weekends that routing shouldn't cause too many problems. During the week however it would be much more difficult.

If you or any of your collegues are ever in the vicinity of West Drayton please pop in and plug in on the TC Midlands sector. Fam flights and liason visits are the best way of promoting a better understanding of the problems faced by both controllers and pilots alike, and it's a shame that official fam. flights are now virtually non-existent

Hope to see you around someday,

Slippers.

[RAFAT]

It is indeed a shame, reciprocal fam visits would be invaluable.

[BALIX]

Surely with NATS being partially airline owned, the opportunities for pilot/ATCO liason should be better than ever. Instead of banning fam flights, they should be positively encouraged. I know 9/11 has had an impact on flight deck access but mutual undestanding has to be good for safety.

Anyway RAFAT, I think you have received the answers you were looking for - if a pilot calls up 'out of the blue' which is almost certainly what you did, that ATCO's forst response is to mutter under his/her breath 'Who the f*** was that?' It happens quite a bit, usually when a pilot has selected the wrong frequency or responded to a frequency change meant for another aircraft. Only rarely are they trying to make a 'pre-emptive strike' like in your case. Unexpected calls are a nuisance but no reason to get shirty.

When it comes to changing your filed route I would ask the controller on whose frequency you are already on - we can always telephone the request through to the next sector or if it is a domestic reroute, get it put in the computer to generate an amended flight progress strip.