Formation Flying! & best flight ever!

[g-okay]

Myself and a mate went and had a go at formation flying last night, it was very calm and all went to plan. I would put it up there in my top 10 flights. We did some very nice turns and break offs. Real fun!!!! Has anyone got any tips for us as we would like to learn more about it of some of you guys/girls that have more first hand experiance. If anyone has not had a go @ it, it is worth a try, it may be hard work but it is a hell off alot of fun.

Also what would your 'TOP FLIGHT' be and why?

[DB6]

Be very careful about 'having a go' at formation flying. It is very important that you realise how quickly things can go very wrong when you are in such close proximity to another aircraft. I strongly recommend that you get some professional instruction in the basic principles before you go any further.
That said, it is brilliant, isn't it :D ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Agree with DB6.

G

[stiknruda]

I'm with DB6 and Genghis, too.

Stik

[Bottle Fatigue]

Sounds like good fun to me!

That said chaps, do you know where to get this training? Apart from Gennady at Halfpenny green I can't think of a suitable instructor and I'm not so replete with readies that I can afford squillions of pounds per hour for a Yak52.

[InFinRetirement]

First thing g-okay. Never just 'have a go' at formation flying, and NEVER do any formation flying that has not been discussed, at length, on the ground - BEFORE you attempt it.

There are some rules that may be unwritten but they are still essential. But you must never attempt anything you DID NOT discuss at your pre-flight briefing. With all the accompanying 'rules' that go with it.

After years of formation flying I cannot imagine a worse case scenario, as you describe it - for two aircraft formating on each other without the above. ONE of you has to be very good at it.

It would take a lot of paper to explain the do's and don'ts but be assured that more than one aircraft has fallen to earth after doing unscheduled and unplanned formation flying. It takes a lot of practice over a long time with several sorties on the same day with a de-brief after each one.

Actually I think I am a little shocked that you have apparently and nonchantly displayed such bad airmanship. Even though it went to 'plan' - it's much much more than that I have to tell you.

Get yourself some very sound advice and expertise.

[BEagle]

Try looking at www.ontrackaviation.com They teach close formation properly.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thruxton do formation work in 4 Tomahawks once a month, I know this because they generally do it straight over my village, so you could try giving them a call.

I've been lucky and taught by an ex RAF instructor for his own reasons, but it is hard in civvie life to get formation instruction. The chap at Thruxton who teaches formation is an ex RAF and CAA Test Pilot, and certainly can teach you more than you're ever likely to absorb.

G

[Southern Cross]

Beg, borrow, steal or buy yourself a Yak 52 and get to North Weald in Spring for the formation flying school taught by RAF QFI's and highly experienced civilian pilots with hundreds / thousands of hours of formation flying. Compton Abbas also hosts plenty of formation flying weekend, also in Yaks.

You will see that the SOP's for formation flying run to 15-20 pages of closely typed writing. These are there for a reason...

As someone who was a complete novice at the art 2 1/2 years ago, now flying with a formation display team, I can only echo DB6 and others - get a lot of professional instruction - both of you. Safety first - enormous satisfaction and fun will follow shortly thereafter.

Enjoy.

[FlyingForFun]

I think the Tiger Club at Headcorn do formation flying training in the Turbulents. The Turb is a single-seater though, so you'll obviously need to get checked out and comfortable with the aircraft first.

I've flown in formation twice, and both times it's been immense fun. Both times it's been discussed at length on the ground first, including the route and altitudes, the R/T, and what to do if either pilot felt at all uncomfortable with the situation. I don't feel that what I've done was unsafe. G-okay said that "all went to plan", which implies that he had a plan - in which case I can't help thinking that maybe some of the criticism he's taking is unfair?

Getting some formal training in formation flying is definitely on my list of things to do, and I won't be trying anything adventurous until after I've received this training. But a question to other posters on this thread, most of whom I know are far more experienced than me: what - if anything - would you say is reasonable for a low-hours PPL to attempt? Obviously you can't give a definite answer, since everyone has a different comfort and ability level. But it is reasonable, for example, for two pilots to take off seperately, join up once outside the ATZ, fly a sector in formation (with say 5 or 6 wing-lengths separation) and then split up before joining at the destination, without any formal training, but with a thorough pre-flight briefing?

FFF
-----------------

[Chimbu chuckles]

Formation flying is certainly a lot of fun...and about the most difficult thing you can do in two aeroplanes...it takes a hell of a lot more concentration than you would think before you've had a go at it.

Myself and two friends did a formation rating about 18 years ago in three C152s...the school where we were learning ran the course with three very experienced instructors. We initially took off seperately and formed up later but after a few hours were never seperated by more than about 6 feet from brakes release to touchdown..wings overlapping all the time...when you get used to it closer is easier than looser...up to a point:D

Relatively underpowered light aircraft make it a lot harder.

In the intervening years I've done perhaps 20 hours in formation, including some at night, which hardly makes me an authority.

But to just 'have a go' is fraught with danger as you do not necesarily use the controls in a 'normal manner' while keeping close formation...use of aileron can lead to some pretty scary 'illusions' in terms of position relative to the lead aircraft for instance.

Get some training before you hurt yourselves!


Chuck.

[BRL]

Try these. There is a loooooooooong waiting list though so be patient. Formation training (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/redhome.html) :)

[Circuit Basher]

And there was me all ready for a comment about commercial links, Paul!! ;) ;) :p

[g-okay]

After starting this topis some days ago and read the replys that have been given, pulling out the info that has been handed out(thanks guys) i feel that there are alot of people who are very quick to judge:mad:. You no nothing of my flying back =ground nor the person whom i was flying with.

I am not hear to justifie myself nor make my self feel better about the coments that have been made, i should have given more info when starting the topic! The criticism that has been dished out is, unfounded.

The flight was discussed @ great length on the ground, both of us have looked at 'RAF pilots flying manual: section 4: Chapter 13.
FORMATION FLYING' and have spoken o people who have been doing this type of flying for years. We both used the RT in the right way, and both discussed what we would do if anything were to go wrong!

[DB6]

Don't get too batey, g-okay. The advice that has been given has been given for good reasons. I certainly don't mean to imply that you just went up and had a gash hack at it without any preparation, however there is a big difference between reading about it and being taught how to do it. After all, would you have attempted taking off and landing an aircraft having only read about it? Flying lose formation with another aircraft at a distance of 100 yards or so is not particularly dangerous and can be great fun but what happens if for example you lose sight of your leader? If you've briefed all the eventualities then good, but what then happens when your confidence grows and you want to move in a bit closer? What happens if you misjudge your closure rate? We train students to fly close formation in 3 hours and then fly them solo on the wing (although only of the instructor that trained them!) so it doesn't take too long. THEN you can start to REALLY enjoy it :D .
Also remember that a lot of these posts don't always come out as their authors had intended - I know mine don't always, especially after a snifter or two :cool: - so it's as well not to take it all too seriously.

Oh yeah, best flight? Probably Oban to Dundee, lose formation in two Fireflies, up Glencoe one on each side at 500 feet then across Rannoch moor (no persons, vessels, vehicles or structures :cool: ) a little lower ;) . On a weekend so no sharp pointy very fast things up our backsides. Utterly breathtaking.

[InFinRetirement]

g-okay

Regrettably, it is just your kind of reaction which tends to substantiate what those of us who have been in display flying, including various kinds of formation flying, for many years, get when we offer - for those interested - the best possible advice.

Reading an RAF manual does not make you capable of good well judged safe formation flying on ONE sortie. It has to be practiced again and again - and then again and again. A manual cannot tell you what to do while you are in the air. You need someone with proven expertise to do that.

You should remember, and soon. That on PPRuNe you have some of the finest talent available to give you advice of the kind that is not available elsewhere. You were given that and took offence as if you learned it all in one go. THAT - is - impossible! If you choose to ignore such advice that is your perogative. If that is the case then I suggest that you do not bother to make such a post again.

[Tinstaafl]

Unless you've been trained to do it, it's a dumb thing to do...:rolleyes:

Oz requires a log book endorsement before one can engage in the fun. To do otherwise contravenes various rules about a/c minimum separation.

What are the UK & USA rules about when one may engage in formation flight?

[Southern Cross]

G-okay:

If you enjoyed it so much, I would have thought you might appreciate suggestions about how you might enjoy it even more with others of similar skill levels in an environment where you can receive world class quality instruction almost for free.

It seems I was wrong. Don't bother posting if you can't take responses with good grace.

[Fox_4]

Have a go at formation!!!!!!!!!

Most certainly a recipe for disaster. I do hope you heed the words of some of the guys that have posted already. Especially about briefing, lessons, safety and not just a have a go attitude.

Yes it is extremely useful and rewarding, along with being an operational neccessity for those of us in the military. However, to pick up the skills required takes teaching from experienced instructors and also alot of practice to stay up to scratch whilst in close formation.

Guys like the REDS make it look easy because they are GREAT at it and practice ALOT!!!!

Dont become another statistic mate. Get some lessons!

Oh, most enjoyable trip - any air combat trip

[formationfoto]

Sometimes a thread doesn't generate the expected response does it?.
I have to agree being taught formation flying is a very good idea, a potential life saver, and will improve the skill level. It is, however, possible to develop the skill slowly over time providing you look, listen, and learn from people who know what they are doing. Just as it is possible to self teach aeros. To do it this way takes a certain type of self critical person though and an external set of eyes can see the mistakes quicker.
I was assisted by an ex RAF guy and now practice every weekend with people I know and trust as the lead. Over the past year or so of doing air to air pics we have had people claiming to be experienced at formation flying who fly 'same way, same day' about a mile from the camera ship and people who choose to continue closing without any idea how they are going to complete the formation entry to a safe position. Needless to say we now request that I go as formation pilot (which speeds up the sortie because I and the photographer work as a team) or I pilot the camera ship and have plenty of exit routes worked out.
Its not a game but can be immensely satisfying.
Try it but only when you really understand what you are doing or have someone with you who can teach the skills.

[sycamore]

G-okay
Bit like dabbling in the occult,you might be alright but you can end up in a situation far beyond your skill and experience,in a split-second,if you`ve read about it ,and talked about it!!.If you can get a Yak-52,Chipmunk,Harvard,Zlin,Cap-10,warbird,or jet,ring "The Squadron" at N.Weald and see if there are any vacancies on the Sept. training week and learn how to do formation flying properly,even some limited aeros,and good tail-chases,all taught by professional display pilots,even ex-Arrers.If the weather`s still good you`ll have the hardest working week of your life,and maybe want to come back for more,next year.;)

[FormationFlyer]

As a formation display pilot I echo the comments here.

The RAF Flying Manual examined must be years old....As formation flying is vol 5, part 1, section 2 chapter 6 in AP3456.

I recommend on-track aviation as per beagles post for good solid formation training.

I am currently working to provide courses approved by the CAA - probably in an AOPA framework (similar to the aerobatic certificate)....news should be available on this in the next 3-6 months.

[g-okay]

It seems this time i have over steped the mark( not with any due intent) I guess that i just had such a good flight that i had to share it. I think that my last post was taken the wrong way, and if it was the way i laid it out, iam sorry. I dont come onto PPRUNE to rub people up the wrong way, i come on to learn.

All advice has been taken on, and when i find somone who will take me on (thats if they have not read this first:D ) then i will come back and let you all know how its going.

Once again A BIG THANKS;)

[InFinRetirement]

g-okay

Well, that was a step in the right direction. Well done. You obviously recognised that we were concerned about your safety more than anything else. It took a big man to come back to do that.

So, now go and really enjoy it. But get the right people to guide you. I had some of the best instructors around at the time I started learning aeros and formation flying. Neil Williams, James Black, Pete Jarvis, Pete Channon, Carl Schofield and many others. A prize of the greats I can tell you. But none would let me 'go' unless I demonstrated that I was entirely competent.

Get the right people and you will be alright.

Get the basics right and formation aeros can follow. When you can do those you have truly arrived.

Good luck.

[FormationFlyer]

G-Okay..

Cracking display of airmanship in that last post. Not easy to make such posts either. My respect to you.