Logbook hours

[Hersham Boy]

Quick question: my first instructor told me to fill in my brakes on/off times in my logbook (and the tech log, if I was PIC) to the nearest 5 mins... my new instr. gives me the times to the precise minute...

Who's correct? Does it matter? I don't want the CAA thinking I've fiddled times when they see that all my logged hours are conveniently rounded!

Hersh

[AerBabe]

I think that logging to the nearest minute is only usually used for gliding.
Feel free to contradict me anyone!

BTW Hersh... what did you do to the old one?! ;)
Instructor that is.

[Grim Reaper 14]

I put exact times down, but then convert that to as close as possible in tenths of an hour. i.e. 1 hour 5 minutes is almost 1.1 hours, so it gets rounded up.

[SteveR]

Who's correct? Does it matter? I don't want the CAA thinking I've fiddled times when they see that all my logged hours are conveniently rounded! Both of them are correct.
No it doesn't.
They won't.

Steve R

[sennadog]

I have a question.

For billing purposes, my club charges me take off to landing time + 5 minutes eithrer side and given the fannying around that I usually indulge in pre take off it seems like a good deal to me.
Consequently, all of my hours have been logged in this way. If I spend more time pre - take off, can I then log the extra time that it takes?

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, sennadog, you can. You log the time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power with the intention of taking off, to when the brakes are applied at the end of the flight. So if you want to log lots of time very cheaply, and you are charged the way that your club charges you, simply take 3 or 4 hours doing your power checks!

FFF
-------------

[gizbug]

Am I missing something?
I look at the Hobbs/Tach prior to starting, and look at it when shutting down the engine, and that difference is what I log in my logbook.

[Carlito]

Hobbs meter may be the best and fairest way to charge for an aircraft at a club, school or in a syndicate but LEGALLY flyingforfun is right. Your logbook time is from when the aircraft moves under it's own power till brakes on at the end.

[Hersham Boy]

Thank you all... mind now at rest.

AB - the old one started to drink heavily and had a tendency to cry when he saw me turn up at club... :D Actually, he got a more senior job elsewhere and I'm looking forward to thanking him for his influence with a bottle of something he can't drink before flying...

Hersh

[GRP]

I tend to log hobbs time (which starts moving when the engine starts) since the time between engine start and moving off is no more than 30 seconds. On return I stop the aircraft and shut down within 30 seconds of stopping. Since hobbs is only accurate to the nearest 5 minutes anyway I can't see that this makes any difference.

My tech log gets (take off to landing) times to the nearest minute which I believe is what determines the maintenance schedule. Conveniently my new panel mounted GPS records this time for me so if I have forgotten to note the time on take off then I can get it from there.

[BEagle]

So in the depths of winter you take no more than 30 sec to move off after engine start?

That's why we don't use b£oody Hobbs! We teach people to wait until the engine oil temperature is within limits before moving off - so they don't wreck £15K worth of engine by trying to save themselves 5 minutes more on the ground. They are charged from chocks to chocks, rounded to the nearest 5 minutes - and no decimal rubbish either. That's for Hairy Arm Corps, Spams and thickos!!

[Tinker]

A bit harsh Beagale. Use of an appropriate grade of oil or a multigrade prevents wrecking your 15K engine, many people believe that sitting at idle for any length of time after start up is detrimental to engine life (actually it is start up and shut down that knocks the hell out of ya engine). Waiting for hydraulic tappets to 'pressurise' is beneficial but this doesn't take long and operating temps will be reached quicker if you are using power settings appropriate to taxi speeds and if not, your engine run will soon take care of that.
I don't suggest taking off immediately after engine start but I don't recommend hanging around too much beyond your after start checks before doing an engine run.

I subscribe to the when in Rome theory, I have always logged hours based on how I am billed. If it's Chocks Off to Chocks On plus a bit or minus a bit that’s how I do it or if I am billed on the Hobbs that’s what goes down in my log book. If someone wants to check up on me there can be no question.

I believe Hobbs hours are based on engine rpm so theoretically this should be the fairest way to log hours. Airborne time is minute for minute but if you are sat on the ground nattering to your instructor waiting for departure, you aren’t credited with that entire period of time.

[Grim Reaper 14]

Damn! I'm gonna have to have a word with all the instructors I've had, as it appears that every one of them has made me a fully paid up member of the 'thicko, hairy-armed spam corps'. And I thought I was getting on so well too.....

"There's no pleasing some people".
"That's just what Jesus said Sir!"
:p

[Kirstey]

Nice one Beagle - you've only slagged off 99% of GA enthusiasts and professionals in one swoop!

You should get a job as a FISO at Lydd you miserable sod!

[FormationFlyer]

Kirstey...

So 99% of GA 'enthusiasts' (pilots would have been nicer - enthusiasts dont necessarily log time! :D ) log in DECIMAL HOURS?

Well if the number of logbooks coming past my eyes is any indication then I must be seeing everyone who exists in the 1% who log hours:minutes then....

Airborne + 10mins is the fairest charging system of all, then chocks-chocks. Neither of these encourage the pilot to get airborne ASAP - which is exactly what hobbs does...you will find pilots skimp their checks etc., & get airborne before the engine is properly warm when hobbs is charged. So Beagle is perfectly right there.

Now if you think that 99% of GA pilots skimp their checks and thats ok....but I assume you didnt interpret the statements that way....(i hope anyway..)

As for logging of flight time..the CAA/JAA are quite clear on the matter.

[JAR-FCL 1.080 Recording of flight time]

(b)(2)(iii) Place and time of departure and arrival (times (UTC) to be block time)


So it is expected that what is logged in your logbook is block time - i.e. chock to chocks...not what the companies charge you...FlyingForFun is perfectly right on that account.

[wet wet wet]

Well said FormationFlyer. It worries me that people do not read/refer to the appropriate official documentation. Also that it is possible to undertake a PPL training course and not be taught what the law requires!

[Kirstey]

****** it!!

I'll get my coat then!! I always use 0.5 hours is 30 mins. I presume that puts me in my self defined 99%???

[FormationFlyer]

LOL! :D

I personally estimate about 30-45% of pilots flying GA aircraft log in decimal....Anyway Kirstey...good to see the sense of humour has returned :)

And just for the record - most places I know round to nearest 5 minutes...

[RotorHorn]

In the Robbo's we use datcon meters (like your Hobbs meter I presume). Its in decimal hours.

In an R22 it ticks over when the engine is running (whether sat on the ground or flying).

In an R44 it only ticks over when you pull power on the collective (flying costs money, but sitting on the ground engine running and auto's are free!).

Wonder if you could get somewhere for half price in the R44 by constantly climbing and then autorotating between two levels.. :eek: :D

[BEagle]

Guilty of using a particularly juicy worm to catch a few fish! My abrasive tone was quite deliberately intended to flush out some other opinions! Sorry!!

We charge pilots for what they may log. Seems fair and simple. But we record it in proper hours and minutes, not dimwit decimals! Anyone recording decimal time in my tech logs will have it turned into real time- which will probably mean that the cost is rounded UP..............

[IFollowRoads]

No one seems to have pointed out that the requirements for logging time (be in it decimals or minutes, either is fine) are different for the airframe/engine/prop and the pilot. The pilot requirements have already been stated, but for the mechanics, the times required are take off to touch down. Consequently you can quite legally have more 'personal' time logged than you pay for. None of this means that you should fiddle your figures for the benefit of your hours/wallet, or the detriment of the club, but anything over 10 or 15 minutes difference between the two would raise my eyebrows if I was in a position to be checking

[Tinker]

You're a hard man Beagle! Are you predjudiced against those of us who learned in the states :D (as much as I dislike it though, we have become decimalised here in the UK).
I know I do not record my times to the letter of the law, if anything i've lost a few hours or so by logging it as I am billed. ie on the Hobbs in the US and take off to landing plus ten at an international airport in the UK, but if my log book is ever audited, my times will tie up with records for the aircraft in question at the appropriate FBO/FTO so at least I am in keeping with the spirit of the law.
I could name a few pilots who have gained themselves a few extra hours in their log books purely by sitting in sequence or at the holding point due to heavy traffic.
Maybe it's more fool me for not doing the same.