LGW departures

[BOAC]

FOR TOWER
Since LGW APPEARS to be single runway in the grand plan, and we all want to maximise utilisation of the 'asset', may I propose something to help us jet-jocks save you a few seconds here and there?

'Line-up behind the departing xxx': the question for us is when do we spool up the engines before take-off? Nine times out of ten you would like a quick departure, and it takes a few seconds to reach the required engine fast idle speed (737) before we advance the throttles to commence the run. It is not always possible to second guess the controller's departure interval, say with a DVR off R26 followed by a SAM/BOGNA, and perhaps a bit of notice as to when you will be releasing us would help? Maybe 'expect early release' if that is legal?

FOR SWANWICK
One more thing while I'm here - I've noticed an increasing trend on a R26 SAM SID to give us a turn back onto 270 a few seconds after we have established on the 246 to MID. Any chance of an earlier call? Same thing sometimes happens on a R08 LAM just after the left turn onto the DET track.

[BEXIL160]

Can't answer yr TWR query, but the initial headings after departure come from Terminal Control, still at dear old West Drayton, not Swanwick(.....yet).

As to why the turn instruction comes after you've just turned the other way on the SID, it's probably to do with NOISE RESTRICTIONS. I'm not current, but off RWY26L (or R) I seem to recall that no turns (off the SID track) were allowed until passing 4000ft. Hence the fact that you wander off left towards MID before the OCK controller can turn you right, back up to the north side of R8 , where he wants you.

In fact TMA controllers are seriously hampered by Noise restrictions on virtually all the SIDS... environmentalists gone mad? Sometimes I think so. Many of these restrictions were designed in the days of Tridents and BA11. Chapter 3 aeroplanes are MUCH MUCH quieter nowadays.

Rgds BEX

[vertigo]

Seems a bit silly for the SID to turn onto the DET radial anyway. It doesn't help you 'jump' the BIG stack and as for noise, the DVR and CLN sids go straight ahead.

[BOAC]

Thanks you two for your replies. Sorry I tried to move you south too early!

NB We do not write the SIDs, just (try to) follow them. If they are wrong, shouldn't they be changed?

Would like an input from Tower if you can raise them:rolleyes:

[161R]

Departures

Your efforts to maximise "the asset" are appreciated.

If you are given a conditional ie:-

"BAW123 after the landing XXX line up XXX" (PLEEZ! Don't readback the "landing" and "line up" the other way round! It over excites the old pacemaker),

you can normally anticipate departing as soon as the preceding was vacated the drag, if not we'll try to tell you to "expect departure in ........mins/secs". In any case a conditional line up would not be necessary in this circumstance.

If a " land after the departing (ie YOU!)" is looming, after the conditional line up, a " be ready to roll" followed by a "cleared for take-off", would hopefully generate the required response

[Muppit]

Fair point BOAC, and good question.

I'm sure you're aware of many of the things that dictate a departure order: slot times, vortex, route, a/c speed, and we have to juggle these to make best use of the runway. Our SIDS aren't all that great, and we have to make sure that our visual separation translates into radar separation when we pass you to London, so at times there may be a short delay.

If you're following slower, heavier or same SID a/c, then you'll be delayed. I personally try to tell you if there's a delay, for either vortex or en route separation, I know others don't.

You may notice also the line up command varies at times. If you'll be taking off at the earliest opportunity, you generally just get "line up 26L", and if we know of a short delay for whatever reason, you'll get the "line up and wait 26L" command.

Semantics I know, but it tends to work.



;)

[BOAC]

Thanks folks - I have NO problems with wake etc.; if I hear 'land after' or 'be ready immediate' I'm normally coiled like a crouching Panther (enough!), and I reckon to be fairly slick in getting away when it is OBVIOUSLY needed. The problem is that it is not always obvious, and sometimes we get the 'go' with the other traffic over to London, and sometimes it has barely rotated - and I'm talking like types (737/AB) here! Given that I am not perfect (aah!) and cannot always keep tabs on the preceding SID, what with c/c dinging the bell, company calls, check lists and the like, is there some way you can at least indicate the more urgent ones?

I would suggest (and wait to be corrected by others) that vortex notification is not necessary for us (is it mandatory?), and delayed departures due to radar separation less of a problem. It is when you are probably crossing your fingers below the console when you release us that it helps us to be forewarned, either with 'be ready immediate' or some other cue.

(NB 161R the query is for take-off following take-off - following a landing is normally easy to judge as you s..t.r..e..t..c...h o......u......t ... the clearance as the long-hauls saunter off:D )

[professor yaffle]

personnally i use either
can you accept an immediate departure clearance if so cleared
or ....line up and wait, be ready immediate

then cleared immediate t/o
if it's really tight or the pilots interpretaion of immediate appears to differ from mine (!) i'll add where the landing traffic is, just to gee him up a bit!!

prof

[heavyboned]

Any BA 777 pilots listening...........?

[BOAC]

Problem is, Prof, this does not really solve the problem. Surely the term 'immediate' applies to the time taken to begin the roll, and not the time to wait for the clearance? We really could be away in a 'snappier' fashion most times if we knew the latter.

(Oh dear - I used to have friends on the 777................)

Keep it coming please!

[161R]

DOH!

Sorry BOAC. Pity I didn't listen to past advice and "read the bxxxxy question".:o

Just going to crawl back under my stone!

[BOAC]

No PLEEEEZE 161R - don't do that!!

[tea_swindler]

BOAC I'm with Muppet on this one - if I want you to wait on the runway you'll get a 'line up and wait' . We expect to see the aircraft moving within 5 seconds of giving the take off clearance - a lot of pressure on you guys but everyone seems to do pretty well. By the way if you've been told to be ready for an immediate, there's no better sound than that of the engines spooling up as you readback the take-off clearance.

[BOAC]

T-S - have I had this wrong all these years, then? I always thought that 'immediate' referred to the speed of reaction to the t/o clearance. Are you saying it refers to the time we expect to wait before we get that clearance, because I have sat on many occasions for a significant time 'ready immediate' before being cleared to roll? The point I am trying to make is that it is not always possible to second guess that release time you will give.

We are reluctant to sit with the engines spooled up for any significant length of time. Maybe it just is not worth trying to save those few seconds for LGW? What do the rest think?

[nodelay]

Your last post raises another good point.

Firstly, immediate take off does require a speedy response to a take off clearance, you are quite right.

However, when we ask you to "be ready immediate" it doesn't necessarily mean that as soon as the wheels of the previous departure are off the deck you will be cleared take off. As previously mentioned similar routeings will result in a short delay, but because of inbound traffic or further departures to follow you, an immediate departure may still be required.

I will sometimes advise pilots to expect a short delay for departure/vortex separation but be ready immediate when instructed, thereby putting you fully in the picture and aware of what I expect from you.

As tea-swindler mentioned earlier, there is nothing sweeter than the sound of the engines being wound up whilst reading back the take off clearance. And I agree with Ts in so much as when you are cleared for take off I want to see the aircraft rolling as soon as is possible.

Hope this all helps!!

[LateLandingClearance]

I'd go along with Muppit here and it's the way I try to train new people coming through. Always expect to roll pretty soon after no1's wheels are off the deck. If this isn't going to be the case, give the flght crew some idea of wait time with their line up clearance.

You can be resonably sure that the next call you get once you are on the runway will be you takeoff clearance, so it would be a pretty safe bet to start spooling up when you next hear your callsign.

It's the discussion of things like this that can really help to make the LGW operation work at it's slickest - thanks for bringing the subject up BOAC.

[161R]

Ah! The transmitted sounds of spooling engines!

Almost as satisfying as the sight of rubber accelerating over tarmac before the takeoff clearance has left the ether :)

[pushapproved]

All good points. If you're No.2 with a 146/RJ100 (or slower) ahead there will be a bit more of a wait than with most other aircraft because of the performance. It also depends upon the SID being flown, eg. When on 08R with a SFD first, (subject to type), we can normally launch the next departure as soon as the wheels leave the ground because the 'split' happens quite quickly, ( at 2.5dme). Similarly on 26L with a DVR/LAM/CLN/BIG first followed by a SAM/BOGNA. When it's the other way round i.e. a westbound first followed by an eastbound, the 'split' takes a bit longer to occur because they are both tracking westbound until the second reaches the turning point, so a take off clearance may not be given until the first is establishing in the climb, gear going up etc. If there will be a reasonable wait such as a 146 departing ahead, I normally advise the next departure to expect 30 secs to 1 minute on runway or if the first one is going the same way to expect 2 mins. Hope this is useful!

[BOAC]

Push - very useful, thanks, but it brings me back to a point I made earlier that even the superhuman amongst us cannot always keep tabs on which SID the a/c ahead is on.

"I normally advise the next departure to expect 30 secs to 1 minute on runway or if the first one is going the same way to expect 2 mins. Hope this is useful!>

Most!

Any other ideas?

[Muppit]

BOAC

One apparently simple question.....how many different opinions!?

:p

All the replies are quite correct in their own way and illustrate how something apparently straight forward can be achieved using various methods and techniques.

The art of working high-density single runway is just that - it’s an art. Yet some can do it more effectively and expeditiously than others, even though we all work to the same criteria and minima.
The rules that we have to stick too are rigorously documented, but the techniques involved in achieving maximum runway utilisation are many and varied.

If we could pass on this experience thro' tuition and explanation, all of the pilots would be fully briefed and we would have a 100% successful validation rate (we don't!) and they're would never be a go around cause everyone was 'playing the game'.

What we can do is attempt to appreciate your willingness to expedite and be let of the leash; curtailing that if your 'body language' looks a bit feisty. What we would like, is to see you guys enter the runway ASAP, and when we start to give the convoluted take off clearance...

'....surface wind is 260/10, landing traffic 3nm, departing 737 turning right, my name is Muppit and I'll be your controller for the day, did I mention what a lovely colour scheme that is, runway 26L, CLEARDEDFORIMMEDIATETAKEOFF!'
(Its called owning the R/T)

...you start spooling up!

Basically, we don't have the resource of time to explain the departure separation in all instances, but most of us do appreciate that you are expecting minimum time on the runway and will say if there is going to be a bit of a delay before you roll (more than 45secs ish!)

Feel free to come up for a visit and a coffee any time to discuss it face to face, and from the 5 ATCO's on duty, you'll get at least 13 opinions!

:)

[Line up and go]

I'm gonna add my wee bit here...and firstly may I say I agree with all my compatriots as well, they're just misguided!!

Sometimes I will give you line up clearance and "be ready for immediate when cleared"
What I'm attempting to do is apply the approriate spacing between you and the previous departure who is either slower or on a similar routing as yourself. However there is a landing aircraft boring down the approach, and I'm squeezing every inch out of the sky as possible.

We did have a "controller" once who apparently, in a similar situation, said "take off quickly, fly slowly" I know where he was coming from!

Like Muppit said, come up and see us sometime! (we're usually both on at the same time)