Procedural Arrivals

[Mister Geezer]

I am wondering if any of you ATCO's can put on your 'Procedural' hat and answer a couple of questions.

I am aware that if you are inbound to a holding facility prior to an approach then in a non radar environment, then you have to be in 2 way comms with the required ATC unit by 10 mins before you arrive at the holding fix.

Right I am sure I have that bit of the rule straight?

The grey area is as follows. I have been told that you have to be at your assigned level for the hold by 5 mins before you reach the holding area .

The bit that I am not clear about is the definition holding area . I have been told that the holding area varies from a 5nm protected area around the hold to a 2 minutes flying time protected area only when joining from certain directions.

I am doing my I/R in the next few days and I have had a mate who partially passed his I/R because of these rules and I have another mate who came close to getting a partial pass in his I/R due to the above rules. To be very honest CAA examiners are saying one thing while instructors are saying another while the local ATC unit is saying something different as well. Just to make matters worse it is a major talking point at my FTO at the moment so Mr Examiner will be waiting for any of the above rules to be broken!

Any helpful advice would be great!

MG

[Legs11]

Geezer,

Separation is not your responsibility, it's mine - unless of course your outside controlled airspace and inform me that you do not wish to participate in my service - but then you wouldn't get your approach in would you :p ?

You are required to call 10 minutes before the holding facility, I am required to provide separation - that's the contract.

Whether I then choose to apply 5,6 or 7 minutes (depending on direction of arrival) requirement to be level is up to me - and your only concern is to comply with instructions :cool:.

However, I am aware of certain examiners who do apply a 5 minutes rule themselves, so I would suggest that in order to pass, BE LEVEL 5 MINUTES BEFORE ;) :D .

[matspart3]

Happens lots at my unit. Ten minute call is an AIP recommendation and definitely good airmanship.

We can (and do) use 5 minutes from the holding area as a procedural separation but if you are given a level by the Approach unit, you should climb/descend to that level straight away unless told otherwise. We occasionally use the phraseology "arrange your flight to be level by time xx" or "when ready, climb/descend"

Good luck on the test!