Talking to London Information

[Romeo Romeo]

I've asked London Information for a FIS a couple of times, but I really don't see the point! They're useful for opening and closing flight plans and perhaps it's nice to have someone to talk to when going over water (although there are probably better people to talk to), but why do people who are just going from A to B tell London Information about it? They've got so much on their hands and it's such a vast area they deal with that there's no way they can give you much of a service, and it just gums up the frequency. I've spoken to them before and been told 'Standby, you're number 5' or something like that.

If I can't find anyone sensible to talk to I try to tune into Virgin Radio on 121.5. They never seem to play any music these days and sometimes the DJ seems REALLY nervous. :D

[Chilli Monster]

Although they do a stirling job using the facilities they have (not a lot) the service is vastly overused and abused by the average PPL and as such is liable to be swamped on a busy summers day. I think the user therefore has to accept some responsibility in how they use it. So - next time you are thinking of calling them maybe it's worth asking the following questions first:

Are you opening or closing a flightplan?

Are you after danger area activity information?

Are you after an airways joining clearance?

Are you after some weather information for a distant airfield?

Are you flying over a desolate or uninhabited area (English Channel / Mid Wales for example) where no other ATC services are unavailable.

If the answer to any of the above is no then do you really need to call. The answer to that is really no again.

There are plenty of other frequencies you can scream pan or mayday on around the country if need be. Leave London Info for its job, not as a pseudo ATC, because as you clog them up it stops them doing the job they're there for (the ones listed above).

CM

[Red Four]

I tend to agree with both the above, I think pilots talking to London Info, rather than to a more pertinent local ATC unit, causes an awful lot of incidents, especially once the 124.6/.75 frequency becomes overloaded.

Apart from the occasions listed by CM, I think the system could be improved by there being a published map with Flight Information 'sectors' evident, for any pilots to know exactly which ATC unit they should be talking to in a certain area, and for ATC to know who is likely to be talking to the aircraft, if anyone, in a particular area; instead of the current situation when the aircraft may be talking to any number of possible units, if at all.

Pilots would still be able to talk to no-one in the open FIR if they desired, but otherwise would know which unit to contact for local flight information. The main drawback is that units might require more staff to provide a system like this, and how would this ever be funded?

I've lost count of the number of infringements by aircraft who have been working London Info prior to talking to who they should be talking. Not saying it is L.Info's responsibility, of course it is the pilot's, but the system as it is does not encourage pilots to talk to the right unit at the right time, and a busy L.Info often wont be able to suggest they contact a more pertinent frequency.

[matspart3]

I think it's very misunderstood by pilots. I find it a bit of an insult when pilots leave my freq to call London Info! I've got a nice Radar and I'm talking to half the other flights bimbling around my little bit of the FIR...I'm definitely better placed to provide a more effective and safer service. On a busy day, Lon Info is little more than a callsign collection service.

[PFLsAgain]

But on the other hand, we pilots get told to contact London Info. sometimes. E.G. a couple of weeks ago, outbound from Gloucs. heading for Sleap, I got told to report 10 DME. I then got told to talk to London for a FIS, and Gloucs. weren't really that busy.

I just listened in to London, until I could tune in Wolverhampton.

[Romeo Romeo]

I've come across that as well. When some ATCs want to get rid of you because you're outside their area then they sometimes suggest London Information as the next frequency (probably because they haven't got a better one for you to call). I usually ignore them and if I can't find a better frequency I'll put it on 121.5 - just in case of an emergency.

I agree with Chilli, you should only use it if you actually want some information. Perhaps they should start explicitly asking 'What information do you require?'. That'll get some interesting responses!

How does London Information work? There are several different frequencies; is each frequency controller by a separate person or are they all ganged together?

[Chilli Monster]

Can't speak for the new setup at Swanwick, but in the old days it was a couple of people at a desk with all the frequencies running into it, which could be split if necessary. In front of them was a 500,000 map of the uk, and boards for flight strips. Add a couple of phone lines and voila - that was it!

CM

[eyeinthesky]

CM: That is still the set up. Normally there is one FISO and an assistant, and occasionally there is a second FISO if it is very busy.
The only traffic info you will get is if there is a glaringly obvious confliction.

Bear in mind also that that bloke is covering the whole of the London FIR. The other day I was over North Wales (nicely described by CM as 'desolate':D ) talking to them and they were also talking to someone crossing the boundary towards Dover and someone else up towards OTR. Not much chance of traffic info there!

The initial few postings had it right: Call them for airways rossings, boundary estimates etc, but use local units for the three-point navex over Oxfordshire!

[Kirstey]

I understand the arguments above, however I feel if I can be talking to someone then I should be. Even if just for an alerting service, so someone knows roughly where I am!

I also agree that it's better to been in touch with a local ATSU as opposed to London Info if at all possible!

However, between Shoreham, up towards Bewl Water up to Rochester there are no ATSUs (with one exception mentioned below) to speak to with the exeption of Lashenden. Which brings up 1 question and 1 point. First of all the local ATSU for that Shoreham Rochester trip is Gatwick - who with some justification will laugh their socks off at me if I ask for a FIS/RIS so busy or not I will speak to London Info, just to let them know where I am. I can infer from other transmissions where people should be in relation to me and if people broadcast turning points and next estimates we can build up a bit of a picture by ourselves.

As for my question what kind of service can Lashenden, or any other Air/Ground Radio station offer me? They are not supposed to provide a FIS, the only traffic they can report on is in the circuit. So what would be the point in talking to such a station unless you were going to transit their ATZ or pass close enough to be a threat to approaching/departing traffic?

[sennadog]

Kirstey raises a good point about the triangle around Bewl Water as there is nobody really to talk to as far as I know. There is Shoreham at the bottom end, Southend or Manston if you are in that area but no-one else.

I generally use London FIS for the Chatham and London ASR service and would prefer to talk to someone rather than nobody at all provided I am outside an ATC area.

Presumably this is a good idea? Does anyone have a better solution?

[Romeo Romeo]

When I can't find anyone sensible to talk to I monitor 121.5. It's all very well London Information knowing about you, but what can they do for you? If you have an emergency it can take quite a while for you to fit a word in edge-ways with London Info, and the only position information they have to go on is what you've told them. Where as with London D+D, you've more or less got the frequency to yourself and they know where you are as soon as you push that PPT button. Besides, there's sometimes some interesting stuff going on!

What we really need is LARS covering the whole country and open all the time, but that's not going to happen. Perhaps we could have unmonitored frequencies for areas where we can announce where we are, similar to UNICOM in the states, but we're already running out of frequencies and also that system doesn't work too well around MATZs at weekends when no-one's there.

Perhaps the best solution is for everyone to transmit and receive ADS-B information, but that'll be a few years off yet, I think.

[Fallows]

I am one of those FISOs on London Info and a PPL as well, so perhaps I am qualified to answer one or two questions.
If an aircraft is near to an ATSU who is able and WILLING to give the aircraft a service particularly a RAS or RIS we would transfer it to them. Not all ATSUs are willing to give a service due to workload and/or staffing.
If we are able, we can split off the busiest freq normally 124.6 the south east freq, and have a dedicated FISO for that freq, often staffing at Swanwick precludes this though.
Last night an aircraft called me over Northern France going to Newcastle and the first radar equiped unit I could tranfer it to was Coningsby in Lincolnshire who unusually were open, normally we would transfer it to Waddington which is H24.
I would certainly agree that what is required is H24 LARS coverage nationwide, but who pays?
If Romeo Romeo would care to E-Mail me I would be delighted to show him around the "mysteries" of the FIR and London Info.

[alphaalpha]

Kirstey:

You may be doing the Gatwick approach controllers a slight disservice. Routing Bourn-Shoreham under the London TMA down the East side of City and Gatwick CTAs via LAM and MAY, you pass very close to the eastern edge of Gatwick. I have found Gatwick always prepared to provide a service. When very busy I have only had FIS. When in IMC I have always had RIS. This is a route I have flown about 20 times.

On a wider question, are ATSUs obliged to provide FIR traffic with FIS if asked? Chilli, can you comment?

On the question of London Info in remote areas, I agree with earlier posters about use of London Info when in remote areas. I flew Welshpool-Snowdon-West Wales-Shobdon last weekend and could only reliably talk to London Info (above A025 or so). Is this due to the positioning of the aerials, perhaps? Liverpool & Cardiff could not be heard, even at closest point.

Regards

[Kirstey]

No disservice to Gatwick ATCOs intended. I know a few with many years experience between them.

I've always been put off contacting them becasue whenever I've heard someone else announcing a change to Gatwick they get told "suggest you try....." that and as a new PPL I feel my radio is not up to scratch to dealing with them yet!

[Chilli Monster]

aa

I wouldn't say 'obliged' to provide FIS, but as it's the lowest form of ATC service it's no great problem to provide. I'd much rather be giving just that than watching a blip go stumbling through my ILS at 6 miles and not know what or who they are.

The number of people recently who have called with only a couple of miles to run beggars belief - especially when I'm a LARS unit in addition to approach. The reason "the previous frequency was too busy - we couldn't leave it" doesn't wash when they've travelled 25 miles in a Warrior!:rolleyes: It's just poor planning and awareness.

But going back to the original question. I see no problem in calling any unit for a FIS, be it radar equipped or not. But again the responsibility thing comes into it. We've become a nation of 'I must talk to someone' pilots. Why? If you're passing close to another airfield or their inbound or outbound routes then it's a damn good idea. But sometimes it can be just as beneficial to dial up the frequency and listen only. How many people dial up a frequency, hear it's busy and think to themselves "Ok, I'm not going to affect them that much, I'll listen out and announce my presence if it appears that it's a good idea" (you can often guess if the traffic information being passed is you ;)).

Most of my 'bimbling flying' is done in the Notts, Lincs, Derbyshire area. Waddington provide a wonderful service, but if it's 20K+ visibility and a 4000' cloudbase then the pilot can accept the responsibility of VFR - and looking out of the window themself. Anyway - on days like that why would you want to spoil the experience by talking to someone ;)

Now - Cross country flying. Take a trip I've done a few times, Nottingham - Filton. The Comms plan goes like this.

Nottingham - A/G: Obviously talk to leave.
East Mids - APP: Talk for zone transit.
Leicester - A/G: Call if you pass through the ATZ, listen if going well over.
Birmingham - APP: Busy, I'm remaining outside CAS, listen only.
Coventry - APP: Talk if passing close to the instrument approach, otherwise talk only if not busy, remain VMC and away if they are.
Gloucestshire - APP: Listen if they're just working traffic in the circuit, talk if the've got stuff in the hold/instrument procedure.
Filton - APP: Obviously talk to arrive.

People plan on a map, but never plan their R/T - it doesn't take much extra to think it through.

CM

[Spiney Norman]

C.M.
Couldn't agree more. I think your post above is top advice. The thing that has always concerned me about pilots revieving an FIS is that they may think they're going to get a comprehensive service and, unfortunately this is not the case. Here's a quote from MATS Pt1 just to show what I mean, (I'm talking about FIS provided by an Approach unit here)........'Controllers will, subject to workload, provide pilots with information concerning collision hazards to aircraft operating in Class C,D,E,F,or G airspace when self evident information from any source indicates that a risk of collision may exist. It is accepted that this information may be incomplete and the controller cannot assume responsibility for its issuance at all times or for its accuracy.'..... I think this is particularly relevant to Gatwick, for instance, because the primary task of the guy you're speaking to is to provide intermeadiate approach to IFR inbounds so the quality of the service he can provide to FIS seeking VFR traffic will vary depending on the amount of aircraft inbound to Gatwick. The bottom line is If you're VFR rely on the lookout rather than the ATC service.

Spiney

[tacpot]

ChilliMonster: Some of us do try to plan our RT. I use blue pen to mark on my track reminders of when and where I should be calling whoever I have decided to call. But I'm still so inexperienced I need all the help I can get in the air...

I did my QXC on Dec 23rd, and all the MATZ and LARS units in Lincolnshire were shut (God help us if the Ruskies decided to invade at Christmas!), so I spoke to London Information to get confirmation that Wittering MATZ's really was closed as I was planning to go through it. It was the first time I'd spoke to London Information, I got a very good service and was dead impressed with the other traffic (which was very light) calling in from all over South East.

I've really appreciated this thread for the list of times when you should use London Information. It's one of those bits of information that does always get covered very well on the PPL course.

[nippa]

'Controllers will, subject to workload, provide pilots with information concerning collision hazards to aircraft operating in Class C,D,E,F,or G airspace when self evident information from any source indicates that a risk of collision may exist. It is accepted that this information may be incomplete and the controller cannot assume responsibility for its issuance at all times or for its accuracy.'


Of course this was written in the pre privatisation days when atc manning was designed to cope with maximum traffic loadings.
Now that ATC staff numbers are minimised by contractual restraints , things aren't so easy.
Our priority is very much on our paying customers.

It's now a mean world out there and you guys are getting a "free lunch" both from the FIR controllers and Local Airfields.
Be grateful for what you get because once the Bean Counters get round to it , you'll end up paying.

[Chilli Monster]

Of course this was written in the pre privatisation days when atc manning was designed to cope with maximum traffic loadings.

MATS part 1 is a regulatory document applicable to the whole industry (not just NATS) and therefore has nothing to do with pre or post privatisation worlds.

In addition things haven't changed for a lot of us ATSOCAS providers - maybe that's because most (not all - hello Cardiff) of us don't work for NATS.

There is a world outside of NATS AREA which is best explained by those who work in it ;)

But as for beancounter involvement, that has already happened with the recent DETR report on provision of LARS. Hopefully the treasury will see sense and go for the hypothecation of Avgas tax proposal which makes the most sense for funding of LARS and effectively ATSOCAS

CM

[alphaalpha]

Only one thing to say to Chilli's last post:

Hear Hear!

[Spiney Norman]

CM. Again, top post..and oh so true!

Spiney

[bluskis]

MATSPART3

Could you identify or hint at the identity of your unit.

Any help in avoiding other aircraft while bottlenecked under and around the london areas is really appreciated, and the more so if we know we are not being a nuisance to the ATC.
NIPPA

Not sure I like the comment that we are not paying for the service. Most of the infrastructure, training,etc, etc was paid for by the taxpayer, and any price paid by the current operators certainly did not fully cover that.

Moreover it would be educational to know exactly what the new operators were contracted to provide, was it just to speak to those aircraft who pay the most?

An aerial auction for instant service would be quite a thing to listen in to.

[canberra]

just because a military airfield is shut doesnt mean no ones there! i know you were being humorous, but dont forget waddington has had nimrods(thats the mark that the raf denied having until recently) and sentries in the middle east since december.

[nippa]

Sorry Chilli I wasn't meaning to undermine my non-Nats colleagues but things were very different for you guys even then.
For a start , you were far fewer in number.

I'm old enough to remember when MATS1 showed example flight strips with destination KILD ( Idlewild ) so give me some credit for knowing what's new in MATS and what is historical.
The words were written at a time when Public Service meant something and ATC was striving for professional status.

Times have changed.
I now consider every request for service carefully , when years ago I would have given it without thought.
Of course that was prior to the legal contract made by the conditions of RAS and RIS.

Personally I believe every aircraft should pay for every service or the total cost be borne by public funds. Today's mix seems a temporary blip.

[vancouv]

As a recently qualified PPL I am interested in the above comments. During my training I was taught to contact London Information during cross-country flights ( I also fly from Shoreham so have the problem with few other ATCs to talk to).

Although I get an FIS from London, only on one occasion have I actually been given any information about other aircraft, so I can see the point that people are making. Hearing someone in the South West calling up is not particuarly interesting when you're in the South East.

As a result of this sometimes I switch to London, but just listen out for anyone who may conflict with me. Obviously if eveyone started doing this there wouldn't be much point! But somehow it doesn't feel right to not be talking to someone and telling them what you're up to.

I would also say that on my skills test I think the examiner would have taken a dim view of me flying around and not talking to London - he made it clear in the pre-flight briefing that I should talk to 'appropriate' frequencies even though I did not legally have to. Does this mean that what PPLs are taught is perhaps not what should be happening?

[Chilli Monster]

Vancouv

I think the word 'appropriate' fits in well with what I've been saying. Talk when appropriate, listen and enjoy the view when it's not.

If your instructors / examiners are saying you should be in full time contact all the time then fine - don't forget they are using that to conduct an assessment of your R/T in adddition to your flying. It's part of the instructional and examination process. However - now you have your licence you can start to learn such things for yourself.

nippa

coo - I don't even remember those. Take all your points though. The provision of ATSOCAS needs a complete overhaul - sooner rather than later.

CM