One for the ETOPS specialist - Prob 40 prior to EEP

[RMC]

Prior to dispatch our manuals are clear that (unlike in non ETOPS operations) Prob 40 is to be considered in deciding whether an airfield can be used for ETOPS planning purposes (using increased minima). After dispatch but prior to EEP it is clear that actual minima is to be used in deciding if you can continue beyond EEP. What is not clear is if the prob 40 needs to be taken into account in the intermediate (post dispatch / prior ton EEP stage)? Thanks in advance.

[haughtney1]

Every ETOPS operation I've been involved in has at its heart, struggled to explain in clear terms this little misconception as previously described.
From a simple perspective ETOPS is a planning exercise with requirements for improved safety margins and weather minima etc. Once dispatch ( that's another can of worms!) has been achieved then all that needs considering is the standard weather minima...like you normally would on a non ETOPS flight with respect to alternates. The only ETOPS specific consideration would be to ensure that prior to the ETOPS Entry Point the weather at your ETOPS alternates is above the normal minima, if not other alternates are required...but at normal not enhanced minima.
That's how it's always been done where I've worked.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

RMC raises a valid point IMHO.

What if prior to EEP, you receive a new TAF and now your Altn wx is forecast PROB40 BELOW LANDING MINIMA? (EG PROB40 0200FG OVC001)

[compressor stall]

Once you're airborne all ETOPS (actually, EDTO) requirements fly out of the window, and all possible diversion airfields become equal. Is always the case in EU? What if your EEP is downroute?

There are some operators here who declare EEP as wheels off, not 60 mins from an airport.

And FWIW the PROB 40 deteriorations below EDTO alt minima disappeared from our (AUS) regs two years ago. It used to state that you didn't have to worry about it. Now you need to consider any weather conditions.

[haughtney1]

Clearly theres some confusion here, so its worth asking the question "is there a difference between the planning phase and dispatch"
Secondly if a new prob 40 forecast is issued below the normal minima prior to the EEP then you'd need to refer to your specific company docs. Prudence would suggest you seek another alternate but at the EEP if the actual conditions are above the airfield alternate minima, where I work im legal to continue, if they subsequently fall below minima its irrelavent.

[Smithy02]

I have been flying EROPS/ETOPS/EDTO for over 30 years, what on earth is EEP?

[compressor stall]

Let me guess, you fly for QF?

ETOPS/EDTO entry point. There's an EXP too. :)

For some operators - particularly in AU- , he EEP is wheels off. That is ETOPS rules apply from wheels off, even from somewhere like Paris across the Atlantic. If heading out over Brittany, if it goes cr@p downstream at all your EDTO alternates then it doesn't matter, captains call as you were in EDTO at liftoff.

For (all?) others the EEP is the point at which you get to (the predetermined distance that equates to) 60 mins from an adequate airport. If the weather goes to pot at all of your alternates as you are heading out over water, already some time into your flight, you don't enter EDTO airspace. (i.e. proceed beyond the 60 mins distance)

[RMC]

Thanks for the replies so far....just dug further into Part A 8.5.8.1 (Prior to ETOPS entry point) which says
"If ANY conditions are identified which COULD preclude safe approach and landing , then the flight crew shall take appropriate action , such as rerouting as necessary to stay within the approved diversion time.

IMHO Prob 40 COULD preclude an approach below minima????

[Smithy02]

Thanks CS,

No, not QF and we use EEP but just don't use the abbreviation. What do you call the EDTO exit point?

[LGWXOPSA]

The exit point is when the aircraft leaves ETOPS / EDTO airspace and is covered by airfields not further than 60 mins.

That's how I understand it...