On the SID please.

[Capt Pit Bull]

OK ATCOs - its payback time for all the TCAS gen.

The scenario:

Launch from LGW 08R, flying the LAM sid. I could see that there was significant (red returns, albeit localised) weather in the climb out, just off to the right of the SID.

I.E. If we fly the SID, we will miss the weather (barely).

Trouble is, I knew, from several years flying these routes, that at any second ATC would give us a heading (100 ish) that would take us straight towards the cells.

So rather than waiting till the instruction was issued and then refuse it (effectively upsetting the controllers plan) I figured it might be sensible to pre-empt the situation.

So I called "Callsign, due weather, request no vectors to the south of the SID".

Sadly, this seemed to cause confusion in the ATCO. We were then given a turn, refused it, reiterated that we could only accept the SID route or to the north of it.

However, the controller now said 'tell me what heading you want, then I'll tell you if its possible".

So I said 'request present heading thats 080'. This was agreed, with the instruction to advise when able to turn right. So we then flew to the point where the SID turned, and then had to do more RT to enable us to make the turn we would have done anyway.

Now, the whole thing was no big drama, although there was a lot of RT involved and doubtless the controller was busy with other tasks. I felt as though my well intentioned attempt to give the controller some advance warning just added to his workload rather than helping.

So, some feedback please.

Is it better to say nothing if your present clearance is OK, even if your experience suggests a high probability that an instruction is about to be offerred that can not be accepted?

Or is being proactive likely to throw the controllers game plan. Maybe if he is not talking to me, its because he is thinking about how to handle a different part of his airspace?

What is the quickest, unambiguous call I could have made to get my meaning across better?

CPB

[10W]

I think giving the heads up has got to be the best plan, even although it seems to have thrown this particular ATCO.

I don't think there is any standard phraseology but something along these lines would do the trick with me.....

'PitBull 01 request follow the full SID track to avoid weather'

[spekesoftly]

Suggest:-

"c/s request heading 080 for 'n' miles to avoid Wx on my right"


I'm not suggesting there was anything wrong with the original request, but perhaps stating what you want, rather than what you can't accept, would reach a quicker agreement. I also appreciate that CPT was trying to be flexible, within the constraints of Wx avoidance.

[FWA NATCA]

As a radar controller I must agree that what you did was correct, you tried to give advanced warning that you couldn't accept the normal turn given by departure off of the SID.

Mike
FWA

[Over+Out]

WX is becoming a big problem for us. We have no WX radar info at all, it is all guest work for us. Sometimes we have to refuse a wx avoidance turn because this will take you towards another aircraft. At times we have so little room to manoeuver, I do not know what the answer is.
Thanks for all the TCAS stuff.

[zkdli]

capt pb

you were quite right to tell atco about the wx and that you didn't want to turn. It just sounds like the atco concerned didn't take in your message :) That said, the controller was putting you on to a heading to give you climb earlier and he/she probably thought that it might help you to get high early rather than trogging along in the scud at 6,000 ! But over all it we would rather you say something about wx first than do something and tell us afterward:D

[5milesbaby]

Speaking up early is much better, so the gameplan can be ajusted before its too late.

Always difficult to know what to say, it'll differ slightly for every Atco, but if you requested 080degs, and were asked to report when able to take turns , you could have replied with the position where the SID turns, just to give a little more. ;)

[Essential Traffic]

I agree with the previous comments but in defence of the controller: On TMA SE controllers need to get a/c out of Gatwick on headings asap to ensure separation against Heathrow outbounds so that the a/c can start climbing.
The LAM SID is the most difficult route to deal with on TMA South as we have to get a/c up to FL130 by abeam Heathrow. This is made difficult by holding traffic at BIG, so throw in weather avoidance and the Standing Agreement of FL130 is very difficult. So if a/c on the LAM SID do need to Wx avoid the chances are that we will have to Coordinate the a/c at 6000' with TC North therefore further climb is usually not given until past LAM.
I am not suggesting that a/c should not Wx avoid, but be prepared that Wx avoidance decreases controller's capacity by alot, thats why we are always eager to know when a/c can take radar headings.
Hope all this waffle means something

[Standard_Departure]

Agree, tell the ATCO.

However, possibly, with an important request like this, first get his/her attention, by saying " Gatwick, Capt Pit Bull, request" , then once he/she is all ears, state your case.

This might sound silly, but ATCO's ears are tuned to standard requests and transmissions. When there is something out of the ordinary, get their attention first..

Just a thought.

And then..... Would it be feesable for pilot's to use a "PAN" call when advising ATC that they are following an RA instruction?

Wow ... that was 2 thoughts in a row.


:) SID

[eyeinthesky]

CPB: Following this thread, it seems to me that your initial call to ATC was spot on and should have been understood by the ATCO. Regrettably, however, there a large number of ATCOs who seem incapable of doing anything non-standard or appreciating this type of issue. They ALWAYS put LAM departures on a heading of 100 to go round the back of the Biggin stack or whatever, and any change to that is far too difficult. It seems to be the way they are being taught these days: do it by numbers to get through the tests.

Would echo the later comments: if you want to do something, then tell ATC and they will try to accommodate you. But you might occasionally have to choose between avoiding a TCu and avoiding other bits of airborne aluminium!!