US Warship Warns Western Isles Plane

[uk94]

by Iain Maciver, Stornoway 11 July 2002

A PLANE with 13 people on board was stopped from landing at an island airport by an American warship warning the pilot that he was flying into a dangerous military area.
Although no restricted areas had been advised to pilot Linton Chilcott before take-off, he decided to divert the Jetstream passenger plane away from Benbecula in case the plane came under fire.
Alasdair Morrison, the islands' MSP, furiously hit out last night saying he expected the American forces to issue an explanation within 24 hours and also give an assurance it will not happen again.
The Royal Navy yesterday asked the Scottish Air Traffic Control Centre (ScATCC) at Prestwick for a copy of the tapes of the incident for the purposes of an urgent inquiry.
Alan Mossman, the managing director of Invernes-based Highland Airways, said: "The call as made on the 121.5 Mhz emergency aviation frequency which all planes and many ships and ground stations listen on. Our pilot, Linton Chilcott, took the view that the warning could not be ignored. Perhaps there was confusion on the ship about the exercise area, we do not know the reason.
"The ship did not identify itself other than saying it was an American warship."
"We have filed a complaint making the point that these exercises must be better organised so this does not happen in the future."
There were 11 passengers and two crew on board the Prestwick-built Jetstream. Mr Chilcott decided not to tell them of the warning from the warship.
Last week, an American warship taking part in the same exercise was suspected of firing a missile which landed a mile away from houses in Durness, Sutherland - eight miles from its intended target zone.
The Royal Navy would not confirm Highland Airways' claim that it was an American warship that made the call as it was "currently attempting to speak to all parties."
The warship was one of many vessels from Norway, Sweden, the US and the UK taking part in a 10-nation NATO exercise called a Joint Maritime Course. JMC 02/02 is the second such exercise to be held this year,
Air traffic controllers at the island airport also had overheard the warship's warning and were said to have been very surprised. They over-ruled the warning and gave clearance to the pilot of the Highland Airways plane to again attempt a landing at Benbecula.
It then landed safely.
It has emerged that Highland Airways, the air traffic controller at Benbecula and ScATCC, which monitors emergency air frequencies throughout Scotland, have all submitted strong complaints to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) about the incident.
A spokeswoman for the CAA in London confirmed: "The civilian plane was apparently well outside controlled airspace. We will investigate these allegations and speak to all parties concerned.
"At this stage, we do not know how long that will take."
However, Alasdair Morrison, the MSP for the Western Isles, said: "I think the US Navy has to quickly explain what they were doing - and by quickly I mean within 24 hours. They must also promise this will not happen again.
"It would appear that Americans' behaviour contrasts sharply with those professional people who operate the Hebrides Range to the west of the Uists."
A spokeswoman at the Faslane naval base confirmed that they knew of the complaints to the CAA. She said: "The tapes we have are very faint so we are liaising with ScATCC and we have requested a copy their tape which they are happy to supply us with.
"We can confirm that there were no restricted areas to civilian aircraft to the north of Benbecula on Tuesday."

ends

:mad:

[Chilli Monster]

It would be so nice if our paranoid colonial brethren could accept the fact that they're not at war in certain parts of the world.

Fat chance of that happening though!

CM

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

A spokeswoman for the CAA in London confirmed: "The civilian plane was apparently well outside controlled airspace. "

Can someone explain the significance of that statement from our well-reported spokeswoman? I'm not familiar with the airspace up there but was she suggesting that the divertionary tactics took it outside CAS, or is there no CAS there? If the a/c was in the open FIR precisely where would the ATCO at Benbecula have stood if, as a result of his overruling, the aircraft had been hit by a missile? In the dock no doubt? Very scary stuff.....

[incubus]

Except for the ATZ, there is no CAS around Benbecula. There is barely any civilisation ;-) The STMA is the nearest and that is about 100 miles away.

The field itself is within D701E and its 06 instrument approaches can impinge on D701, however I am sure that Benbecula App have the activity status available on their board :-)

[Kirstey]

At risk of being shot down in flames (no pun intended), the Americans wonder how any one can hate them so much that something like Sept 11th Happens??? They really are an arrogant bunch of so and sos. Unfortunatly I suspect Mr Blair will side with GWB as opposed to his own electorate.

[Bright-Ling]

I would say UNBELIEVABLE...but having woked with the US Mil it sn't so odd.

I guess the crew were lucky not to be shot down. They were right to ****** off and THEN complain....who knows what those "Gung-ho, hit-first-ask-questions-later-morons" will do.

[CUNIM]

Just after the Gulf war, my French boss came in having seen the film Henry the Fifth all about Agincourt. He said that some twenty thousand French were killed against twenty five English and he supposed that it was down to the Long bow. No said I, it was just that we didn't have the Americans on our side then.:D

[Check 6]

Kirstey, you need to look in the mirror!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Back to the thread... so if Benbecul is outside CAS why did the CAA lady make a big thing of it??

[Legs11]

She probably has no idea what she's talking about:eek:

She's in London for a start, does she even know where Benny is?:rolleyes:

[On the beach]

Was the ship involved called the "USS Vincennes?"

:( On the beach :(

[ComJam]

At the risk of getting "shot down" myself for this.....

The vessel invloved was taking part in the JMC, a very large exercise involving numerous ships, helicopters, fast jet attack packages and a large amount of Electronic Warfare including jamming of radars and comms.

All aircraft invloved in the exercise are pre-noted to the all of the vessels and all aircraft must have positive clearance to fly through the fleet. It would appear that as the Highland Airways aircraft transited the area it entered airspace considered sensitive by the American vessel. They then took the appropriate action on considering the aircraft to be a potential (and unknown) threat i.e. they transmitted a warning on 121.5 and 243. The aircraft changed course and was subsequently identified thereby sloving the problem.

My point is, the system works, there were no "gung-ho yanks" invloved and the aircraft was not in any danger.

The only real worry is.........what would have happened had he not been listening to 121.5? :confused:

Cheers

CJ

[BEXIL160]

I'm curious....

How could a 200kt Jetstream be considered "a threat" to a Warship?

Most USN and RN warships are equipped with some sort of CIWS (Goalkeeper/Phallanx/other), which would be more than a match for a 200kt JS32. These systems are designed to combat missile threats, as well as aircraft.

My point is this. Unless the Jetstream was extremely close to the USS DDG (or whatever) there was no need to challenge it, or indeed to "order it to change course".

The would have been PLENTY of time to find out it's identity, and should the worst come to worst, and it did actually get close (and I mean ONE MILE here) and it not be checked out, visually ID it before letting CIWS loose.

Threat assesment went wrong here I suggest. The USN reaction, although safe, was OTT. There are times when it can pay dividends to be a little more circumspect, just as there are times for immediate action.

Rgds BEX

[maxy101]

Perhaps the Americans were merely warning the aircraft for its' own safety? If these guys were jamming and firing the odd thing, it's probably better to warn aircraft off than risk having to stop a costly exercise half way through? If these Americans had been "gung ho" , they would have shot it down, no?

[canberra]

i should get tweezers to get the splinters out of my ar$e! i can see both sides of the arguement on this one, the yanks are notoriously trigger happy, even in peace time and on exercises. there were a lot of complaints by contractors at heyford in the early 80s about usaf security personnel being very quick to draw their pistols, one of them even fired several rounds a dump truck driver. luckily the usaf guy missed, but was on the next plane home. its possible the jetstream pilot may have strayed in to the jmc area. dont say it cant happen cos when i was at tain we had a ba viscount come through the range at 1500' one day, luckily we had no aircraft on the range.

[ComJam]

BEXIL, the point is, the ship doesn't want to be in the position of having to protect itself against a probable civilian perceived threat, the best way round it is to do exactly what they did, not OTT at all.

Canberra, fair enough, however, an aircraft transitting between Stornoway and Benbecula avoids standard Danger Areas but will enter Notam'd Class G airspace as he is perfectly entitled to do.

As I said, the system worked.

CJ

[West Coast]

The only one trigger happy in this exercise was the BRIT ship that lobbed rounds down range within a mile of non participants.

[BEXIL160]

Comjam

"Probable percieved civilian threat".... Which means what exactly? Not in my FOST list of terms I'm afraid.

Assess the threat and act accordingly. At the time the "warning off" occured the JS was not a serious threat, OR LIKELY TO BECOME ONE. Monitor and react. Upgrade the threat. There are stages to go through, and with a 200kt target you have lots of time. With HANDBRAKE you don't and CIWS would have taken care of that, let alone a relatively slow twin engined turbo-prop.

Of course could it not be that the USN were in the wrong place? I.E. out of the exercise area. Seen that happen as well.... more than once.

West Coast is right about the RN Ship making a BIG (and possibly dangerous) error with their shooting. Now that needs serious sorting out.

rgds BEX

[Aunt Rimmer]

Class G airspace, D701E not active, no exclusion zones below FL245 except at Loch Ewe (30 miles away on the mainland). JS31 (IMHO) perfectly entitled to be there.

Of course the USN (founded by a Scot, so there's an irony of sorts there) could never get it wrong .....

....like the time the nuclear carrier USS Enterprise issues a broadcast to a conflicting surface radar return-

USS E - "This is the USS Enterprise, transmitting to vessel at 55N10W (sic), alter your course we are maintaining our present course"

CSRR - "USS Enterprise, we have priority, suggest YOU alter YOUR course"

USS E - "I say again, this is the USS Enterprise, the largest and most potent battle carrier of the United States fleet, WE have priority, so alter your course immediately - you are in confliction with our route"

CSRR - "USS Enterprise, this is the Chicken Rock lighthouse - your call":D :D

[edinv]

Until about 5 years ago there was an Advisory Route Between STN and BEN. CAA DAP disestablished this on the grounds of lack of traffic. Class 'F' airspace does not offer much protection to IFR flights, however ADRs are notified routes, and as such appear on charts. Such charts, I assume, are used in MIL exercise planning. or should be...................

For info, D701E is directly associated with operations at EGPL/BEB. It is activated by NOTAM to facilitate JINDIVIK operations from the Airport. In addition, D701E restricts the use of W958D in the lower levels when active. It has to be said that D701E has not been activated for some years, although the facility to do so still exists( see UK AIP). The remainder of the D701 complex when active, can restrict both en-route and aerodrome ATS operations.

Share-space................hmmm

[Scott Voigt]

Actually, normal ops when you are having an exercise is to warn away anyone in the area. It is not unheard of for an errant missle to go away from what was intended...

Also, US warships normally operate with an exclusionary zone for protection. They don't want anyone in their zone, and no one wants to ever have to resort to the ships defenses to sort things out in peace time...

As to what a little jetstream could do, ask the folks that were anchored in the middle east what a little boat did to the side of their warship and their shipmates...

[12Left]

Last time I saw this the carrier concerned was parked 6 mile final at a major ME facility and challenged absolutely every aircraft anywhere near. Typical challenge was along the lines of "a/c bearing xxx at x dme you are approaching us navy warship request id yourself etc etc" problem was the challenger never said where he was and we used to need a few challenges and some basic maths to pinpoint him/her. In the end it was happening with such regularity we decided to invide their reps to our facility and try to educate them - mistake but at least we then got them to use the SSR as identifiers which got the pilots attention quicker. I feel for you during these exercises because there is nothing to be done. The military unit concerned would claim that they are acting in and another quote "international waters with due regard" never did work out what that meant.
Small word of advice be ready for anything because if the pilot does not act the next challenge will normally be followed with level and heading instructions which proves interesting in any airspace congested or not/ controlled or not.

[BEXIL160]

All decent points Scott, and yes a JS31 would make quite a mess if it flew into anything.

Of course it has to get near the target first... which is where CIWS comes in. Phalanx vs. JetStream? No contest really is it?



Rgds BEX:)

[ComJam]

Bexil

Soz, should have read "the ship doesn't want to be in the position of having to protect itself against a perceived threat which is probably civilian". You won't found that in your FOST list either, cause it's my way of puting it :)

The vessel was well within the Notam'd area.

Again though, my point is, why get to the stage of having to "upgrade the threat" when a simple, and polite, anouncement on Guard will suffice.

Aunt Rimmer

Not again! :D

[canberra]

i might get shot down on this, but is phalanx and indeed golakeeper designed to shoot down aircraft? i thought it was mainly designed for use against missiles. the rn bought it after the falklands for use against the exocet and similar. mind you whether or not its designed as an aa weapon it could ruin your day if one of its shells hit you!

[BEXIL160]

CIWS (Goalkeeper/phalanx/ others..yes, there are "others") is capabable of engaging any airborne threat.....Including EXOCET and a relatively pedestrian JS31.

Rgds BEX

[Recover]

Having sat on both sides of the fence (military fighters/civilan airline flying) and experienced many times the standard call from "US Warship on Guard", the best thing to do is call them up. You're normally dealing with Junior Seaman Schmuckatelly and the message can take some time to get through ;) but when he's had a word with his AAW boss, the aircraft can normally proceed. I'm curious to know why the Jetstream driver didn't do that.

[DistantRumble]

Everybody military or ex mil reading this will know that whether the exercise is land,sea or air based that a considerable amount of planning has to go into the exercise.

One of the elements always considered (or should be ) is safety, both for the participants and for innocent 3rd parties
- such as the Jetstream.


So is someone saying there was no NOTAM regarding the exercise ?

This is the point to be made.

The Pilot made the right decision - fly away and then complain.
The US Navy ship was following its own procedures.

[Aunt Rimmer]

ToeJam

Sorry, I'm repeating myself.

Sorry, I'm repeating myself.

Auntie

Auntie

(Off for a sherry):D

[2 six 4]

Many many years ago I did some cadet time in the Western Isles. :cool: From what I remember the flight from Stornoway to Benbecula is over Harris, North Uist and then Benbecula. For all those outside the UK these are all islands.

So where was the ship hiding ? In the Craigorrie Hotel car park ?