Electronic Carry-on ban (inc. UAE)

[Dune]

It appears this has just been announced this evening. Best leave those laptops in your checked baggage it appears.:ugh:


BY ALICIA A. CALDWELL AND DAVID KOENIG
Associated Press

The U.S. government is temporarily barring passengers on certain flights originating in eight other countries from bringing laptops, iPads, cameras and most other electronics in carry-on luggage starting Tuesday.

The reason for the ban was not immediately clear. U.S. security officials would not comment. The ban was revealed Monday in statements from Royal Jordanian Airlines and the official news agency of Saudi Arabia.

A U.S. official told The Associated Press the ban will apply to nonstop flights to the U.S. from 10 international airports serving the cities of Cairo in Egypt; Amman in Jordan; Kuwait City in Kuwait; Casablanca in Morocco; Doha in Qatar; Riyadh and Jeddah in Saudi Arabia; Istanbul in Turkey; and Abu Dhabi and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. The ban was indefinite, said the official.

A second U.S. official said the ban will affect nine airlines in total, and the Transportation Security Administration will inform the affected airlines at 3 a.m. Eastern time Tuesday.

The officials were not authorized to disclose the details of the ban ahead of a public announcement and spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Royal Jordanian said cellphones and medical devices were excluded from the ban. Everything else, the airline said, would need to be packed in checked luggage. Royal Jordanian said the electronics ban affects its flights to New York, Chicago, Detroit and Montreal.

David Lapan, a spokesman for Homeland Security Department, declined to comment. The Transportation Security Administration, part of Homeland Security, also declined to comment.

A U.S. government official said such a ban has been considered for several weeks. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to disclose the internal security discussions by the federal government.

Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly phoned lawmakers over the weekend to brief them on aviation security issues that have prompted the impending electronics ban, according a congressional aide briefed on the discussion. The aide was not authorized to speak publicly about the issue and spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The ban would begin just before Wednesday's meeting of the U.S.-led coalition against the Islamic State group in Washington. A number of top Arab officials were expected to attend the State Department gathering. It was unclear whether their travel plans were related to any increased worry about security threats.

Brian Jenkins, an aviation-security expert at the Rand Corp., said the nature of the security measure suggested that it was driven by intelligence of a possible attack. He added that there could be concern about inadequate passenger screening or even conspiracies involving insiders — airport or airline employees — in some countries.

Another aviation-security expert, professor Jeffrey Price of Metropolitan State University of Denver, said there were disadvantages to having everyone put their electronics in checked baggage. Thefts from baggage would skyrocket, as when Britain tried a similar ban in 2006, he said, and some laptops have batteries that can catch fire — an event easier to detect in the cabin than in the cargo hold.

Most major airports in the United States have a computer tomography or CT scanner for checked baggage, which creates a detailed picture of a bag's contents. They can warn an operator of potentially dangerous material, and may provide better security than the X-ray machines used to screen passengers and their carry-on bags. All checked baggage must be screened for explosives.

[MFALK]

Seems as well planned as the Travel Ban. Would be curious to see the risk analysis done when you will potentially now have hundreds of Li batteries in the cargo holds of each and every flight against the chances of an errant terrorist evading security and successfully detonating a laptop bomb and how are they certain that it couldn't be somehow smuggled onto a plane from other departure points in Europe/Asia etc. Interesting times ahead at check-in and security.

[Desertweasel]

Does this feel like the opening salvo of a war on the ME3 and THY conveniently disguised as a security brief that can't be discussed, and since it only applies to foreign carriers, won't have to be?

[dubaigong]

MFALK

You are wrong , LI batteries are allowed in luggage loaded in the cargo holds as long as they are part of the device ( laptop , mobile phone etc... )
We transport everyday cargo boxes full of mobiles phones with their LI batteries inside in our cargo holds and we are not approved to transport Dangerous goods.
This is totally legal and accepted by ICAO.
Is it safe ? that's another question but it is legal...

[glofish]

At least on US flights i can put the fantastic EPT where it belongs -> into the dump

[ExDubai]

Lhofficial@therealdonald "thank you for making us great again"

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Any exemption for crew?

[crewmeal]

Royal Jordanian said cellphones and medical devices were excluded from the ban. Everything else, the airline said, would need to be packed in checked luggage. Royal Jordanian said the electronics ban affects its flights to New York, Chicago, Detroit and Montreal.

Why Montreal? Is that part of the USA now?

[qld330]

Why Montreal? Is that part of the USA now?

The montreal flight continues to detroit

[Monarch Man]

And still no guidance from the bouncy castle haha, I wonder what about bizjet flights? especially those that can access the bag hold in flight.
Easy to get round as a pax if you are going to NYC, just hop on the ATH-EWR or MXP-JFK.

[Emma Royds]

And still no guidance from the bouncy castle haha, I wonder what about bizjet flights? especially those that can access the bag hold in flight.
Easy to get round as a pax if you are going to NYC, just hop on the ATH-EWR or MXP-JFK.

It's effective on the 25th March based on information from the EK website, so it still gives them a little time to inform us and how it will affect us as crew.

[PapaEchoIndia]

....A U.S. official told The Associated Press the ban will apply to nonstop flights to the U.S. from 10 international airports serving the cities of Cairo in Egypt; Amman in Jordan; Kuwait City in Kuwait; Casablanca in Morocco; Doha in Qatar; Riyadh and Jeddah in Saudi Arabia; Istanbul in Turkey; and Abu Dhabi and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. The ban was indefinite, said the official...


Does this apply to the airports or the airlines? I mean what's the case for a pax taking i.e HYD-DXB-JFK or a similiar route starting "out of the box" or which airport is responsible for a damaged laptop due to handling etc etc...

Total non sense in to make the story short...

[my salami]

It's effective on the 25th March based on information from the EK website, so it still gives them a little time to inform us and how it will affect us as crew.

According to the CNN website, this ban doesn't affect Crew...
But then again, it's maybe FAKE News..😂😂

[bongo bongo]

uk to follow

UK introduces ban on electronic devices from several countries | UK | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/781975/UK-ban-electronic-devices-flights-Middle-East-countries-US)

[4runner]

It's due to intelligence gathered from a raid. I'm sure the US should ignore their intelligence and query pprune security experts on this next time...

[casablanca]

It's due to intelligence gathered from a raid. I'm sure the US should ignore their intelligence and query pprune security experts on this next time...

But how does blocking 8 airlines solve this.....you think they can't book a flight transiting Europe just as well? I'd would wager there are a hell of a lot more jijadis in Europe than the countries affected by this.
Just doesn't seem to be well thought out.

[littlejet]

It's a low blow. Using this to fight competition...no comment

[Emma Royds]

But how does blocking 8 airlines solve this.....you think they can't book a flight transiting Europe just as well? I'd would wager there are a hell of a lot more jijadis in Europe than the countries affected by this.
Just doesn't seem to be well thought out.

If someone transits through Europe then they will be subject to the screening process again during the transit. This new ruling is a pretty damming indictment of how inadequate security is viewed at the airports affected. However with what we see with our own eyes in this part of the world, are we really that surprised?

[hdgselect]

There is a long history where US carriers are asking the Government to boycott Gulf Carriers.
Now here it is the solution.
Now is the Gulf Carriers to move ahead, as nobody will sent his own computer or expensive Camera gears into a checked luggage. Unless they will provide a sort of compensation for free: Insurance with full coverage in case of loss or damage, increase of checked baggage allowance and so on.
I am sorry to totally disagree with 4runner. This is an economic ban, not a security matter. Is to allow US carriers to pick up passengers from Europe and bring in the US. So if the danger is a laptop or camera in the passenger cabin, I cannot understand how they can prevent it.
I can Fly from Doha or Dubai to any point in Europe, and then take a US carrier and fly in NYC. What is the difference? And what about the return sector?
And I cannot understand also the move of UK now.

[Emma Royds]

Many hold luggage scanning machines are automated with them being far more complex and sophisticated than the machines used to screen hand luggage, many of which are still solely reliant on the person who is monitoring the machine to decide what maybe a threat and what is not.

The weak link of the chain here seems to be the passenger screening process and by putting the potential threat into the hold, this takes away this weak link: the operator who is screening hand luggage.

The difference in robustness of passenger screening at many of these affected airports is very visible when compared to the likes of FRA and AMS etc. Perhaps this is why transit passengers are not affected, as they will be subject to what is deemed to be a more intensive body and hand luggage screening process during their transit.

[4runner]

But how does blocking 8 airlines solve this.....you think they can't book a flight transiting Europe just as well? I'd would wager there are a hell of a lot more jijadis in Europe than the countries affected by this.
Just doesn't seem to be well thought out.

It's not blocking any airline. It's blocking the carriage of electronics in hand luggage from several destinations and countries. An inconvenience perhaps but the powers that be deemed it necessary and no one cares about opinions on security matters.

[hdgselect]

In AUH airport there is a US pre-clearance facility. Practically works like you are already checked into the US territory and the officers are americans and TSA.
So cannot still understands.

US Pre-Clearance Facility | Check-in & Passport Control | Airport Information | Abu Dhabi International Airport (http://www.abudhabiairport.ae/english/airport-information/check-in-and-passport-control/us-pre-clearance-facility/)

[MotoMendez]

Some of the baggage handlers will have a field day.

[The Outlaw]

To all you who claim that this is an economic ban:

So I guess with that logic the Brits (and next Canada) are helping Donald achieve his goals? Have I got that right?

Maybe, just maybe there has been intercepted communications of real threats at high government levels, not some flippant opinion of posters on a pilot rumor network.


Britain to follow US with ban on electronic devices on flights from Muslim countries in Middle East | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/uk-us-flight-ban-laptops-electronic-devices-donald-trump-muslim-middle-east-latest-a7641796.html)

Canada mulls joining U.S., Britain on electronics ban for flights - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/electronics-ban-canada-us-uk-flights/article34360400/)

[paokara]

In AUH airport there is a US pre-clearance facility. Practically works like you are already checked into the US territory and the officers are americans and TSA.
So cannot still understands.

US Pre-Clearance Facility | Check-in & Passport Control | Airport Information | Abu Dhabi International Airport (http://www.abudhabiairport.ae/english/airport-information/check-in-and-passport-control/us-pre-clearance-facility/)





That should have never been approved
Money talks I guess until something bad happens

Safety first always guys and girls

[casablanca]

I agree it sounds like they are acting on intel.....kudos to them.
But banning a few airports won't fix it...terrorist have to only switch and use different airports.

If they have this technology they will still use it.....but now it paints a bullseye on Aa and United cause they are only airlines allowed to carry computers?

Is it the security in airports? I am from US, and have worked closely with TSA, but can't really say I feel they are superior in any way to security in Doha for example. Passengers are double checked and no liquids allowed.

Just saying if there is really a threat then it needs to expand world wide or it is pointless.......it will be nothing more than a early Christmas shopping spree for baggage handlers.

[littlejet]

To all you who claim that this is an economic ban:

So I guess with that logic the Brits (and next Canada) are helping Donald achieve his goals? Have I got that right?

Maybe, just maybe there has been intercepted communications of real threats at high government levels, not some flippant opinion of posters on a pilot rumor network.


you mean like WMD?

[donpizmeov]

Must admit I am kind of glad they act on any Intel received. Might be bad for the business for a bit, but a least it means the aeroplane I am on is safe.

[mmorel]

Your are wrong . If there is a safety issue it should apply to all flights.

A terrorist can blow up your airplane in doha- FRA route .

If you think this way then you should only bid for US flights for your safery lol

Must admit I am kind of glad they act on any Intel received. Might be bad for the business for a bit, but a least it means the aeroplane I am on is safe.

[donpizmeov]

mmorel, it would depend on what intel suggested the intended targets were wouldn't it? Perhaps you know more?

[JuniorMan]

The U.K. ban does not include any of the ME3.
The US ban includes them all.

Reason?

Because the US restriction includes flights departing from Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Doha.

[woodja51]

Those serious about taking down an airliner only need to walk on ... no need for anything but themselves.
But Few are listening to the Achilles heel below ...
it's been over five years and nothing has changed in this respect in most airline nes I know of operating this type ..
https://youtu.be/mLmzvF2qkDY

[Aluminium shuffler]

OK, then, for the defenders of this new policy. Why, if this security excuse has the smallest shred of credibility, does the US ban exclude all US airlines, given their pax are using airports on the list? It is a corrupt President supporting petulant companies and bent unions, nothing more. The US always plays unfairly with regulations because its businesses are not competitive.

[hdgselect]

I believe this is a cowardly way to please US airlines unions who are crying since about the 3ME. Is a security matter so no discussion right? Safety first right?
So we can't' have an opinion, even if be in aviation business in 5 different countries for 28 years. ok.
Let me tell you something:

1- Why UK ban doesn't include Doha, Abu Dhabi and Dubai
my answer: because they bring revenue passengers there and then US and Eu Carriers can transport to US

2- Why the ban is only for flight to and not from: What is the difference? The US carriers are not included simply because they are not connecting Gulf Hubs to the US directly. The 9/11 were departing flights not arrival flights, and were on US carriers.

3-Why an electronic device in the cargo hold should be harmless instead of one carried in the passenger cabin? because you cannot switch it on? there are millions of ways to wake up from off an electronic device. And I am not an hacker guy.

Do the Americans always told the truth on everything to the people? really?

[donpizmeov]

hdgselect,
1. The UK decided that it would add routes that disadvantage their own airlines, from certain destinations. Did they do this to help cover up this plot to destroy the ME3 while not actually disadvantaging the ME3 at the same time?
2. The intel must have suggested that the threat was from the middle east flights to the US. So why screw around with flights heading the other way? This one doesn't seem like rocket science to understand.
3. I would think they might have some idea about what threat they are against to make the decision they did with respect devices being allowed in the hold.

Most Americans I know are truthful people. Their government seems to be as bad as any other on the planet.

[hdgselect]

Trump's laptop ban is a giant middle finger to business travelers. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/03/21/trump_s_laptop_ban_is_a_giant_middle_finger_to_business_trav elers.html)

[paokara]

Im not asking where the ME3 fly from. I'm asking why the U.K. ban doesn't cover them but the US ban does!




Because they arrive in the US and they don't want to see Americans getting killed as well another 9/11

America cares for Americans as well as their land
Something every country should do for its citizens.

[Emma Royds]

One way the US operators could get round this is by having secondary screening at the gate for all passengers.

I have flown as a pax out of DXB in the past with BA and on one occasion all pax were subject to secondary screening at the gate. Airlines can increase the level of security over and above what the airport operator provides, if they choose to do so. Look no further than EL AL outside of Israel.

It would be a rather embarrassing proposition for the Arab operators facing these restrictions to do the same, as it would be a frank admission that the security on their own doorstep has room for improvement.

[fatbus]

It's obvious the the Pprune experts don't have a grasp of the global intelligence gather agencies.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Because they arrive in the US and they don't want to see Americans getting killed as well another 9/11

America cares for Americans as well as their land
Something every country should do for its citizens.
That still does not explain why the US3 are completely exempt. This is not a security matter, it is protectionism. Again.

[Trader]

It's obvious the the Pprune experts don't have a grasp of the global intelligence gather agencies.

They would all rather, it seems, use it to bash American policy.

[TOGA!]

Trader: shack

[shedsd330]

That still does not explain why the US3 are completely exempt. This is not a security matter, it is protectionism. Again.

US airlines are subject to the same ban. They just don't happen to offer scheduled service to any of the garden spots captured by the ban. It covers airports not airlines. But Trump hysteria just feels better I suppose.

[Joker11]

Looking at what is happening in London right now, this carry-on ban doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Airmann]

America cares for Americans as well as their land

Ya but not the millions of foreigners they've killed over the years or the foreigners land. There would be a lot fewer deaths around the world if we just banned Americans from leaving America.

[nolimitholdem]

@Airmann

Hmmm...except many Americans are former Iranians/Iraqis/Afghanis/Somalians/Nigerians/etc etc etc...do we hate them too? Or just the European Americans? I can't keep up. Maybe you didn't think your silly anti-US comment through too clearly?

Anyway, I have to chuckle at the instant leap to blame Trump and protectionism and blah blah blah oh those poor ME3 victim airlines, and so on and on.

My personal bet is that it just MAYYYYyyyy have something to do with this fine upstanding gentleman Abdullahi Abdisalam Borleh being caught on airport "security" cameras (quotes due to said airport being Mogadishu) being handed a laptop loaded with explosives by another fine upstanding member of society, one of the personnel entrusted with upholding "security" at the airport.

Daallo Airlines Flight 159 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daallo_Airlines_Flight_159)

Did everyone forget how a few things changed after they found explosives/atempts in LAG's, shoes, and underwear?

Nahhhh. Let's go with the "blame American airlines" meme. More popular these days and everyone knows truth is decided by how many people believe something.

[littlejet]

did they ban it from mogadishu? More than a year ago?

[CaptainChipotle]

Ya but not the millions of foreigners they've killed over the years or the foreigners land. There would be a lot fewer deaths around the world if we just banned Americans from leaving America.

Haha. Go hug a tree, then read a history book or twenty.

[TangoUniform]

Get a clue, folks. EK DOES do secondary screening at the gate on all U.S. bound flights. Including pat downs, carry ons searched by hand and shoe inspections.

[Kapitanleutnant]

TU is correct. At IST, we also get the 4 layers of security/questions/patdowns/searches at the gate before boarding a flight to any US Port of Call.

Isn't it just getting more and more fun to staff travel these days???

Kap

[Emma Royds]

TangoUniform

It's selective screening which is arguably pointless if there is no profiling done. In TLV the 'chat' you have prior to check in dictates how relaxed or invasive the security process will be but a selective system is not very robust if there is no methodology behind who gets selected.

I myself have never been searched at the gate on a US flight as a passenger out of DXB. Luck of the draw perhaps?

[paokara]

That still does not explain why the US3 are completely exempt. This is not a security matter, it is protectionism. Again.



They don't fly out of those countries that's why... If any other country wants to add restrictions to the US Airlines they have every right to do so... china Japan etc
If they did they would have to comply

In the past same rules applied out of phillipenes... 1994 if I can recall

I think the U.K. Should follow after what happen today there.


Safety First

[paokara]

What? Banning iPads in the cabin is going to stop people driving vehicles into crowds of people?



If it was not for America there would not have been ME
America protects the land there otherwise it would have been called ISIS not Middle East

That's a fact and protection does cost $$$$$

[nolimitholdem]

did they ban it from mogadishu? More than a year ago?

No. But it's a proven attack vector (in the jargon) and perhaps new intelligence has come to light that there's going to be another attempt by the same method.

And that's the point: the geniuses on PPRune, myself included, are hardly privy to high-level intel. Yet it doesn't seem to stop some from finding an excuse to grind their tired old axes about protectionism and the Great Satan USA etc etc...

[4runner]

Instead of knocking American pilot unions, perhaps you should welcome them. More than half of all aircraft in the world are N registered. A FO for a US major airline makes more money than an Emirates 777 Captain. The FAA is tightening rest rules while the rest of the world loosens theirs. You must be in management....🙄

[Jet II]

No. But it's a proven attack vector (in the jargon) and perhaps new intelligence has come to light that there's going to be another attempt by the same method.

And that's the point: the geniuses on PPRune, myself included, are hardly privy to high-level intel. Yet it doesn't seem to stop some from finding an excuse to grind their tired old axes about protectionism and the Great Satan USA etc etc...

If this scheme was the result of high-level intel then then electronic devices would be banned on all flights to the US from all airports irrespective of carrier. If a terrorist is capable of turning a laptop into a bomb then I'm sure he is also capable of travelling from Istanbul to Athens and flying to Uncle Sam from there.

[4HolerPoler]

Fascinating perspective from the Business Insider that this whole issue may be a ploy to place more pressure on the specified airlines, rather than a specific terror threat -

On Tuesday, the US Department of Homeland Security announced the introduction of an electronic device ban for select flights coming from 10 airports in the Middle East and Africa.

However, many of the eight affected airlines seemed to have been blindsided by the news.

With only four days to comply, it’s still uncertain how many of the carriers will be able to work out the logistics of the ban.

In addition, the thought process behind the decision and the intelligence on which the ban has been based remains unclear.

According to senior administration officials, the decision to implement these security measures is a result of intelligence showing a risk for terrorist activity involving commercial aviation.

“Evaluated intelligence indicates that terrorist groups continue to target commercial aviation and are aggressively pursuing innovative methods to undertake their attacks, to include smuggling explosive devices in various consumer items,” an official said on Monday.

Whatever this intelligence consists of, it was substantial enough for the national security apparatus to act.

According to James Norton, a former deputy assistant secretary of the DHS during the George W. Bush administration, security actions such as this will take place if there is evidence of a credible threat. An example of this happened in 2006 when the Bush administration issued an immediate ban on liquids after law enforcement in the UK foiled a terrorist plot to blow up airliners traveling across the Atlantic using liquid explosives, Norton told Business Insider.

However, what is confusing is that the UK issued a similar ban on Tuesday, but excluded four airports — Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, and Casablanca — featured in the US ban.

In addition, many in the aviation community question whether a ban of this type is even remotely effective in countering a terrorist attack.

It should be noted that Doha, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi are major international transit hubs with extensive multi-layered security procedures. In addition, US-bound flights are even screened in dedicated facilities using well-trained security professionals — often with law-enforcement and military experience.

In fact, Abu Dhabi International Airport is equipped with a US Customs and Border Protection pre-clearance facility where passengers and bags headed for the US are screened by US customs officials.

First, the electronics ban is not an outright ban. Instead, it forbids electronics such as laptops, cameras and tablets from being brought into the cabin of the aircraft. This means they will most likely have to be stored inside the cargo hold of the aircraft with the checked luggage.

However, such behavior is explicitly prohibited by the Federal Aviation Administration.

“FAA battery fire testing has highlighted the potential risk of a catastrophic aircraft loss due to damage resulting from a lithium battery fire or explosion. Current cargo fire suppression systems cannot effectively control a lithium battery fire,” the agency wrote in an alert in February.

When asked, administration officials told journalists on Monday that they are working with the FAA to maintain a safe flying environment, but did not state specifics. Business Insider asked DHS for specifics on Tuesday, but have not yet heard back from officials.

This is particularly concerning for Michael Mo, co-founder and CEO of Kulr Technologies, a company that specializes thermal management systems for batteries.

“Lithium-ion batteries are inherently volatile with an average of one out of five million units expected to blow. It’s statistics. It’s not a matter of if, but a matter of when one of these things blow,” Mo told Business Insider in an interview.

“So when that happens, it’s better to have humans nearby to react and put out the fire.”

In addition, spare lithium-ion batteries stored in the cargo hold are particularly dangerous because not only are they more susceptible to damage, they also tend to be packed into suitcases with incredibly flammable items like hairspray or deodorant.

Protectionist politics?

Of the 10 airlines affected by the US ban, three — Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar Airways — have been at the heart of a heated rivalry with US carriers American, Delta, and United Airlines. For some, the inclusion of these airlines seem way too convenient to be a coincidence.

“If you squint hard enough, there is some justification on a security basis for this, but the implementation has been haphazard and in manner that is particularly targeted at and does harm to the commercial interests of a set of airlines that has been the source of much competitive hand-wringing from US airlines,” Airways senior business analyst Vinay Bhaskara told Business Insider.

When asked about the topic on Monday, a senior administration official denied any relationship between the electronics ban and the feud between the aforementioned American and Middle Eastern airlines.

However, the UK’s decision to exclude the Middle East’s big three from its ban proves to be particularly troubling. After all, it is believed that the UK government acted on the same intelligence as US officials.

The immediate effect of the ban will likely weaken the Persian Gulf’s three mega-carriers along with Turkish Airlines, Bhaskara said. Based on the latest rankings from respected consumer aviation website Skytrax, Emirates, Qatar, Etihad and Turkish Airlines represent the first, second, sixth, and seventh ranked carriers in the world.

Since the US government’s ban calls into question the security of their home airports, these airlines will have to contend with the resulting negative publicity and uncertainty among customers.

A new Emirates ad argues that one doesn’t need a laptop to have a good time on board its flights.

In addition, many corporate customers do allow their employees to ship work computers in their checked luggage. This is due to concerns over theft of equipment and any sensitive information stored on the computers.

As a result, they may push some clients toward carriers that are not affected by the ban.

Currently, no US carriers offer nonstop flights into the Middle East. As a result, they won’t benefit directly. However, the ban will likely drive lucrative business travelers back towards European hubs such as Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, and Paris. This means US airlines will benefit through joint ventures and alliance relationships with Lufthansa, British Airways, Air France, and KLM.

That said, not all US carriers will benefit. Airlines like JetBlue and Alaska have partnership agreements with Emirates. A reduction in business for Emirates cuts into the number of passengers who depend on JetBlue’s and Alaska’s planes to connect them to secondary and tertiary cities in the US.

According to Bhaskara, the long-term effects of the ban are unknown. The strategic decisions the affected airlines and their competitors make will be determined by how long with ban is in place.

At the end of the day, it’s still too early to tell what’s going to happen. Hopefully, many of these questions will be answered as airlines and the flying public work through the many issues created by the new guidelines.

A very interesting and thought-provoking take on the matter at hand.

[4HolerPoler]

This from JP Morgan -

US security measures relating to personal electronic devices could have wider implications for passenger traffic flows, JP Morgan has suggested in a research note published today.

JP Morgan analysts tell investors that the regulation could lead to altered global traffic flows, with business passengers selecting airlines that are not affected by the restrictions over those that are.

They say that certain hubs – particularly those in the Middle East – may be structurally damaged by the regulation, noting a "gradual shift among long-haul business travellers away from Middle Eastern hubs" in the medium term.

Unlike the liquid ban enacted in 2006, the regulation on electronic devices could materially impact travel choices, in the analysts' view.

Business travellers are expected to work during flights, and this regulation specifically makes that exceedingly difficult on the routes affected.

"Given the uneven application of e-ban regulations, this may in turn cause high-yield traffic flows to shift from the Middle East towards... Europe," says the note.

JP Morgan believes European carriers could "theoretically" benefit as they pick up hub-and-spoke traffic that might have gone via the Middle East, and while this could feed traffic to the USA the analysts believe the lift to US carriers would be minimal.

A coincidence? I don't think so. Interesting times.

[fliion]

I'm guessing 90% of people traveling these days have a tablet or laptop.

Now up to 300-400 more lithium battery devices will sit in the cargo hold of these flights.

In event of thermal runaway etc. the cabin CC can isolate the device and use SOPs, not so in hold.

Hope the cargo halon is designed for the increased risk of 100's of these setting each other off.

🤔

[crewmeal]

Now up to 300-400 more lithium battery devices will sit in the cargo hold of these flights

I wouldn't be surprised to see more flights divert due to fire warnings in the aircraft hold

[Land Hopper]

Slightly late on joining the thread but just to throw a little light on the screening process in Dubai for ALL US bound aircraft:

All hold baggage, irrespective of airline, has to go through the highest level of screening. This is what is referred to as Level 5 and includes each piece having projected images from multiple angles.

Prior to the airport having this category of screening machine, bags were pushed through the baggage system and screened normally. They were loaded on to trolleys and then transferred to a mobile screening machine where they were screened once again. A very laborious and time consuming process. Also, the TSA visited quite a few times to audit how this process was carried out. Evidently screening for both EK and the US carriers (DL/UA when they operated from DXB) was up to the desired standard.

The screening is also carried out by the Police and no other agency, as is the case in many other airports.

The automated baggage system in DXB is world class in terms of tracking, screen images etc. so this should be the least of the worry.

At the gates, EK security check both passengers and baggage as they arrive too.

This whole thing smacks of a ruse to screw over the ME3 and just to make life difficult and inconvenience the passengers. Very childish indeed.
Land Hopper is online now Report Post

[ClassCbird]

And now the latest is that devices will be taken from pax at the gate...so presumably, they will be placed all together in one area of the hold. This is a recipe for disaster!

[AllDaysAreSchoolDays]

An idea might be if the company provided enough firesocks™ to place each device in, this would reduce the risk of thermal runaway spreading. Buying time with the fire suppression system to allow a safe diversion :uhoh: (fingers crossed).

Firesocks could be re-used just for US flights until further notice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE5M7xM40Ak

[ClassCbird]

Thats a more reassuring idea, however, having watched the above video on firesocks, I'm curious to know how effective they would be when stacked in large quantities on top of one another if a device ignited?

[Land Hopper]

If they do decide to take these items from pax at the gate then i would assume this would be handled in the same way as they do for the LAG's going to Australia etc. They would be placed inside cardboard boxes and sealed with those dodgy little plastic tags after having a manual bag tag slapped on it. Once aircraft side they would be loaded in to the respective First Class units (as AUS/NZ flights were connectors previously).

This in itself would tell you there would be a problem in terms of space for them to be loaded due to expected quantities. We all know that EK do not allow DG to be loaded in the bulk hold so i would assume these would also be considered as such (again why the LAG's are loaded into the First class units).

The next point is that they will probably get thrown down the chute along with the rest of the gate collected hand baggage. So expect multiple claims for damage through this practice.

Last but not least, tracking of these pieces would not be great to start with. As of recent times, all gate bags were meant to be scanned and recorded as loaded against whatever ULD they were physically loaded in to, much the same as your standard checked in bag over in the build up areas. The main issue here is that at the aircraft side the connectivity for the PDA devices is practically non-existent. This means that there is no real record of every piece being loaded. There is no manual recording process as the EK gate team keep the peel offs from when they tag a piece but do not reconcile it against a passenger name/sequence number etc.

Should one of these pieces go missing then i think you would have to write it all off but because of there being virtually no record of it being 'received' at the aircraft side then the airline would probably wash their hands and say they never even accepted it in the first place.

[ExDubai]

Thats a more reassuring idea, however, having watched the above video on firesocks, I'm curious to know how effective they would be when stacked in large quantities on top of one another if a device ignited?
Have a look at a company called Firetrace. The have an interesting product.

[journeyman]

"Hello Mr Boeing? About those 777Xs...we've decided to go with 350s instead. Sorry about that."

[Aluminium shuffler]

Instead of knocking American pilot unions, perhaps you should welcome them. More than half of all aircraft in the world are N registered. A FO for a US major airline makes more money than an Emirates 777 Captain. The FAA is tightening rest rules while the rest of the world loosens theirs. You must be in management....🙄Are you saying that all other nationalities should be glad to have their job jeopardised and flights endangered so that rich US pilots with cushy jobs can take their place? That's how it comes across...

[Craggenmore]

In addition, the thought process behind the decision and the intelligence on which the ban has been based remains unclear.

That's because there is no thought process and intelligence coming out of the US these days

[paokara]

"Hello Mr Boeing? About those 777Xs...we've decided to go with 350s instead. Sorry about that."





Great savings for the tax payers
Backlog will be reduced from 6 years to 4 years for Boeing


Still no laptops on the Bus

[journeyman]

Great savings for the tax payers
Backlog will be reduced from 6 years to 4 years for Boeing


Still no laptops on the Bus

Yes, because all companies like losing $20 billion in sales.

[777-200LR]

Paokara; you are smoking something good!

You are telling me Boeing will be happy to see a 150 aircraft order cancelled?

[BigGeordie]

EK is the world's biggest 777 operator. It would a PR disaster if they decided not to buy any more, apart from the financial cost.

[4runner]

Are you saying that all other nationalities should be glad to have their job jeopardised and flights endangered so that rich US pilots with cushy jobs can take their place? That's how it comes across...

typical pilot...career wise, you can't see the big picture. ALPA would like nothing more than to have a global monopoly on pilot representafion and higher pay, better work rules and greater safety across the globe. But please, keep the American pilot unions out, outlaw unions, suffer subpar wages and work rules while blaming someone else for your woes. You're definitely in management.

[littlejet]

EK is the world's biggest 777 operator.

And one of the largest employers of American pilots in 07/08

[Fire Ball XL5]

You're right. That 'electronic Muslim ban' makes no sense | ZDNet (http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-us-flight-ban-laptops-tablets-makes-no-sense/?ftag=COS-05-10aaa0g&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=58d6169ff1291200078e1234&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)

[paokara]

Paokara; you are smoking something good!

You are telling me Boeing will be happy to see a 150 aircraft order cancelled?




150?

United needs 100 wide body aircraft by 2022
Delta needs another 75 and American another 100

How about Asian and European airlines?

Not an issue for Boeing

[paokara]

And one of the largest employers of American pilots in 07/08




Never had more than 300 even at 2007/08

In jeopardy

United 12,950
Delta 14500
American 15750


EK less than 230 American pilots today

[littlejet]

in 2007 that was 35% of the pilot numbers. One of yours even bragged on WSJ, another one was a DFO. Careful with your ego

[donpizmeov]

Since EK flies none of the routes in competition to a US airline, can you explain how US pilot jobs are in jeopardy paokara? If anything, bringing potential pax to your shores should enhance your employment shouldn't it? The majority of your flying is domestic so this must be more of a help than a hindrance surely?

[4runner]

in 2007 that was 35% of the pilot numbers. One of yours even bragged on WSJ, another one was a DFO. Careful with your ego

Not an ego statement. A nation acts on intelligence. Pilots working for gulf carriers blame pilots working for double and better work rules and regulations for the ban? Seriously? The US, Canada and the U.K. Should humble themselves before you? Sovereign nations should ignore their intel to appease state owned carriers of middle eastern nations? Pilots of western carriers are the reason for your current work conditions and compensation? And we're arrogant and egotistical? Dude...

[fliion]

Not an ego statement. A nation acts on intelligence. Pilots working for gulf carriers blame pilots working for double and better work rules and regulations for the ban? Seriously? The US, Canada and the U.K. Should humble themselves before you? Sovereign nations should ignore their intel to appease state owned carriers of middle eastern nations? Pilots of western carriers are the reason for your current work conditions and compensation? And we're arrogant and egotistical? Dude...

"A nation acts on intelligence"

Hmm, a familiar ring to it,

WMD Dude!

[4runner]

"A nation acts on intelligence"

Hmm, a familiar ring to it,

WMD Dude!

Which has nothing to do with the current topic and a poor deflection from a passive aggressive personality common to a certain island kingdom who has lost much of her "clout" and empire.

[journeyman]

150?

United needs 100 wide body aircraft by 2022
Delta needs another 75 and American another 100

How about Asian and European airlines?

Not an issue for Boeing

You're clearly too young, or have a short memory. Why don't you ask around and find out where EK's A340-300s came from? And why.

[glofish]

Yeah, the first Blunderbus purchase by EK, and it was not the last ..... :ouch:;)

[my salami]

Can we take a quick break from the usual handbags about USA v ME / pay / Airbus v boeing

At EK in uniform going to USA we can take the EPT - thats written down. What about iPads? Can we take them onboard with us - or do we hand them over like the pax?

Anyone thats done it or doing it let me know please as nothing is written on company portal.

Thanks

Now back to the usual tit for tat!

While on duty, we can carry ANY electronic devices with us.
It has been clearly specified on a recently published memo on crew portal.

M.S.

[Aluminium shuffler]

typical pilot...career wise, you can't see the big picture. ALPA would like nothing more than to have a global monopoly on pilot representafion and higher pay, better work rules and greater safety across the globe. But please, keep the American pilot unions out, outlaw unions, suffer subpar wages and work rules while blaming someone else for your woes. You're definitely in management.

No, I'm not in management, and nor would I ever want to be; if that silly act of name calling is your best retort, then god help you. The US has many things to be proud of, and many to be ashamed of, just like all nations, but few people outside of the US want to see the American aviation model or practices adopted. Your unions are utterly corrupt, as are your political institutions and authorities. You, personally, are blind to the failings of your system.

[Airbubba]

I have flown with some really nice yanks of late, but some of you guys are just so full of nationalistic BS and arrogance that you need calling on it. You think you invented everything , not just in aviation but in everything, and do all of it better than everyone else. You are dillusional about your national prowess. The US has many things to be proud of, and many to be ashamed of, just like all nations, but few people outside of the US want to see the American aviation model or practices adopted.

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble... :D

Two recurrent themes on PPRuNe:

1. Putting down America.
2. Complaining about how hard it is to get a green card. :{

[paokara]

Since EK flies none of the routes in competition to a US airline, can you explain how US pilot jobs are in jeopardy paokara? If anything, bringing potential pax to your shores should enhance your employment shouldn't it? The majority of your flying is domestic so this must be more of a help than a hindrance surely?





UAL DL and AMR have 30 times more International routes (outside the US) than EK QT and ET combined ... check your facts


how about US Airlines fly all the International flying
and all ME Airlines feed them with smaller aircraft ?

Stay at your turf and we will stay in ours....
Plain and simple

[luvly jubbly]

how about US Airlines fly all the International flying
and all ME Airlines feed them with smaller aircraft ?

Oh God, No.
I couldn't put up with the terrible service

[paokara]

You're clearly too young, or have a short memory. Why don't you ask around and find out where EK's A340-300s came from? And why.





Singapore through Boeing who cares.... I am 58 years old and will fight for our pilots future here in the USA

So
2500 aircraft on Boeing orders books by UAL DL AMR SWA for the next 7 years
Should we blackmail Boeing?
Boeing will sell your orders of 777s like hot cakes if you cancel

Stay at your turf that's all we want..... if you can stay in business with this oil prices today!!!

[donpizmeov]

I am sorry Paokara, when you said that Mid east airlines were causing jeopardy to US pilot jobs I thought you may have had some idea of how?
It would seem you are clueless.
I have checked the facts, and no they don't. Delta's 639 aircraft only 139 are wide bodies. Last year they carried almost half the number of international passengers that EK did. You have a huge country, with a massive market. You are lucky you can gain most of your flying domestically. That's where the money is. Let us help you. Its the least we could do.


World's largest airlines by international passengers, 000



1.Ryanair 86,370
2.easyJet 56,312
3.Lufthansa 48,244
4.Emirates 47,278
5.British Airways 35,364
6.Air France 31,682
7.Turkish Airlines 31,016
8.KLM 27,740
9.United Airlines 25,708
10.Delta Air Lines 24,243
Source: IATA

Last year Delta flew 129 430 000 PAX. that's FREAKING HUGE. That is a whole lot of domestic flying. I hope we helped to add to that number.

[pilotguy1222]

UAL DL and AMR have 30 times more International routes (outside the US) than EK QT and ET combined ... check your facts

Code-share flights with a US3 flight number don't count.

You DO realize that ALL of Emirates flights are international?

Out of LAX and SFO, UAL only flies to 16 international destinations.

DL has constantly been giving up international routes to it "code-sharing" partners in recent years.

And given your nasty attitude, you must work for DL.
Don't
Ever
Lose
That
Attitude

[Airbubba]

Anyway, back to the cabin laptop and iPad ban.

According to this article one of the factors prompting the ban was an uncovered plot to hide explosives in a fake iPad:

The US-UK ban on selected electronic devices from the passenger cabins of flights from some countries in north Africa and the Middle East was partly prompted by a previously undisclosed plot involving explosives hidden in a fake iPad, according to a security source.

The UK ban on tablets, laptops, games consoles and other devices larger than a mobile phone came into effect on Saturday. It applies to inbound flights from six countries – Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Turkey. Six UK airlines – British Airways, EasyJet, Jet2, Monarch, Thomas Cook and Thomson – and eight foreign carriers are affected.

It follows a similar move in the US, which applies to flights from 10 airports in eight countries – Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.

The security source said both bans were not the result of a single specific incident but a combination of factors.

One of those, according to the source, was the discovery of a plot to bring down a plane with explosives hidden in a fake iPad that appeared as good as the real thing. Other details of the plot, such as the date, the country involved and the group behind it, remain secret.

Discovery of the plot confirmed the fears of the intelligence agencies that Islamist groups had found a novel way to smuggle explosives into the cabin area in carry-on luggage after failed attempts with shoe bombs and explosives hidden in underwear. An explosion in a cabin (where a terrorist can position the explosive against a door or window) can have much more impact than one in the hold (where the terrorist has no control over the position of the explosive, which could be in the middle of luggage, away from the skin of the aircraft), given passengers and crew could be sucked out of any subsequent hole.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/plot-explosives-ipad-us-uk-laptop-ban

Seems like in the Daalo Airlines 159 laptop computer bombing out of Mogadishu last year, the only one sucked out of the plane was Abdullahi Abdisalam Borleh who brought the laptop onboard. :eek:

[Aluminium shuffler]

But how does putting said explosive iPad in the hold help? It'll still cause structural damage. But by putting all these genuine PEDs in the hold, the authorities are eroding flight safety, and in so, doing the terrorists job for them. This is why there is no logic to the ban, and why it is so evidently an anti-competition move.

[DutchExpat]

Trump's laptop ban is a giant middle finger to business travelers - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-laptop-ban-flights-business-travelers-2017-3)

[rcsa]

But how does putting said explosive iPad in the hold help? It'll still cause structural damage.

I hope no one is going to answer that question, here.

OK?

[journeyman]

Singapore through Boeing who cares.... I am 58 years old and will fight for our pilots future here in the USA

That's the point - Boeing cared.

[fliion]

Singapore through Boeing who cares.... I am 58 years old and will fight for our pilots future here in the USA

So
2500 aircraft on Boeing orders books by UAL DL AMR SWA for the next 7 years
Should we blackmail Boeing?
Boeing will sell your orders of 777s like hot cakes if you cancel

Stay at your turf that's all we want..... if you can stay in business with this oil prices today!!!

Hard to believe a 58 yr old would be so naive when it comes to selling 100 WBs.

[The Zohan]

At EK in uniform going to USA we can take the EPT - thats written down. What about iPads? Can we take them onboard with us - or do we hand them over like the pax?

Anyone thats done it or doing it let me know please as nothing is written on company portal.

The only PED I've left home this morning on my way to the US was my EPT and nobody cared.
The X-ray habibis at HQ have no clue where you're going and they don't ask while the yanks, after we've landed, din't care anymore.

tz

[4runner]

But how does putting said explosive iPad in the hold help? It'll still cause structural damage. But by putting all these genuine PEDs in the hold, the authorities are eroding flight safety, and in so, doing the terrorists job for them. This is why there is no logic to the ban, and why it is so evidently an anti-competition move.

So you prefer your onboard explosives in the cabin as opposed to down below. Gotcha!👍🏻 We received your memo and greatly value your input. All of our employees are important to us. Keep up the great work team, inshallah.

[DuneMentat]

According to the FAQ on the EK foip we're not affected Uniformed operating crew can carry personal electronic devices on board the passenger cabin. Ensure that if you use your personal device, you do so discreetly, away from customers. Please comply with your departmental policy for using personal electronic devices on board.

[luvly jubbly]

I'm also interested to know for the return flight, you never know with the TSA!
:)

Flights OUT OF USA are not affected at all. It is a ban on cabin electronics out of the named airports only. TSA have no ban . And it only applies to passengers. Had zero problems leaving USA with the usual iPad, Tablet etc

First day of the ban, arrivals into USA was a nightmare for ground staff.
Repatriating electronics with their rightful owners took hours.
Many of EKs pax can't read their own names on luggage tags in English alphabet.

[Alloy]

Sounds like EK are just using it as an excuse and as a way of not loosing face. The unmentionable just down the road have stated the ban has made little difference to bookings.

[nolimitholdem]

Yep. I highly doubt that not being to bring a laptop into the cabin cut the demand to somewhere like say, Seattle, in half. Not with all the Canindians just up the road.

Face-saving: what they do best.

[JNPS]

This ban is a knife in the side of the airline. I just suffered through it on a flight to USA. 102 boxes in total, approx 75 J & F pax had to cue for 30-40 min after leaving the comforts of the lounge to check them, then the inevitable rush at the other end to be first in line to collect. There is no way premium pax. will put up with this for any length of time, if there are other options. Not to mention the inconvience of not having your personal laptop on a wifi equipped aircraft. It's ridiculous. Given the logistics of this whole process, I will say the airline has adapted well.

[eagleflight]

From the news today:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/25/us-considers-banning-laptops-on-flights-from-uk-airports
:rolleyes:

[DCS99]

This ban is a knife in the side of the airline. I just suffered through it on a flight to USA. 102 boxes in total, approx 75 J & F pax had to cue for 30-40 min after leaving the comforts of the lounge to check them, then the inevitable rush at the other end to be first in line to collect. There is no way premium pax. will put up with this for any length of time, if there are other options. Not to mention the inconvience of not having your personal laptop on a wifi equipped aircraft. It's ridiculous. Given the logistics of this whole process, I will say the airline has adapted well.

Agreed. Need a new delay code. CP - collecting PEDs.

[A6EchoEchoUniform]

Agreed. Need a new delay code. CP - collecting PEDs.


I flew 215 the other day. Due to collecting PEDs, we arrived one hour late. This cannot continue without altering our success.