Low vis to USA

[cessnapete]

Let's hope Mrs May has a standby ticket for BA tomorrow, as her RAF transport and crews not cleared for low vis operations!
The infight movies better too.

[BruisedCrab]

What? You're broken and unreasonable, say again in English.

[Heathrow Harry]

Linking Mrs May's trip to see the new president with the fact that Brize doesn't have much in the way of capability in low vis (see thread on here somewhere) and the fact its solid fog around Oxford right now

[tmmorris]

Maybe that's why the BZN TAF is quite optimistic for tomorrow...

[RetiredBA/BY]

What in ????'s name is going on in the RAF today. All the tanker and transport assets on ONE runway at BZN which has no CAt 2 or 3 capability and yet operates some very expensive and capable aircraft, A330 for example,, on which cat 3 ops in the civil world are just routine. Just what is ( or rather isn,t ) going on??

[Onceapilot]

Don't think you need to invoke the Almighty BA/BY.:eek: I blame the historic (hysteric?) FJ VSO cadre for utterly failing to understand big-jet ops and not helping to bring the heavies into the late 20th century!. Vested interests (????) also helped throw sand into the chances of getting Brize and the RAF TriStar upto CAT III (for 25 years!):oh:. Now, do not mention the TriStar Autoland accident. That was a pure human factors/crew error and should not have influenced RAF policy but, it was used as ammunition by luddites within the RAF. What was that...? Brize not suitable for CAT III qualification, like saying Heathrow is unsuitable, just depends on the will and the price! ;)

OAP

[Corporal Clott]

I blame the historic (hysteric?) FJ VSO cadre for utterly failing to understand big-jet ops and not helping to bring the heavies into the late 20th century!.

A large number of the VSOs were from the Cholly-Whopper community recently as well. However, the last 4-star with a multi background was not exactly impressive in my humble opinion. So I think the 'FJ Background' is probably a poisson rouge :rolleyes:

CPL Clott

[Onceapilot]

Not so Clotty. The FJ VSOs led the way in the past, and that did not include them bringing Heavy capability to the fore. The die was cast, and witness the lack of CAT III at BZN. Who voted for that?

OAP

[JAVELINBOY]

Lunatics in charge of the asylum that's whats wrong

[Bill Macgillivray]

If they cannot get airborne with tomorrow's TAF (even if very optimistic) then there is a big problem! However, living about 8nms to the east of EGVN I see traffic inbound to R/W 26 in very marginal wx. Getting airborne in poor vis. never used to be a problem years ago so why now?

[RetiredBA/BY]

The almighty's name deleted, substitute?
But really, no cat 111 at the RAF, s main, only, transport base. Did my first cat 111 almost 30 years ago !

[Corporal Clott]

OAP

RECENT AOC 2GP
1 April 2000 Air Vice-Marshal K D Filbey - Victor, Nimrod, VC10 and Tristar
2 August 2002 Air Vice-Marshal N D A Maddox - Buccaneer and Tornado
January 2005 Air Vice-Marshal I W McNicoll - Tornado
9 February 2007 Air Vice-Marshal A D Pulford - Wessex and Chinook
16 September 2008 Air Vice-Marshal S J Hillier - Tornado
October 2010 Air Vice-Marshal P C Osborn - Tornado
18 January 2013 Air Vice-Marshal S K P Reynolds - Chinook
July 2015 Air Vice-Marshal G D A Parker - Tornado and Typhoon

RECENT CINCs
Air Marshal Sir Timothy Jenner 1998–2000 - Wessex and Puma
Air Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup 2000–2002 - Jaguar
Air Marshal Sir Brian Burridge 2002–2003 - Nimrod
Air Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy 2003–2004 - Tornado
Air Marshal Sir Clive Loader 2004-2007 - Harrier
Air Marshal Sir Chris Moran 2007-2009 - Harrier
Air Marshal Sir Simon Bryant 2009-2011 - Phantom and Tornado

RECENT CAS
Air Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton 2009-2013 - Jaguar
Air Marshal Sir Andrew Pulford 2013-2016 - Wessex and Chinook
Air Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier 2016 - Tornado

So I see quite a few Cholly-Whopper background and Multi background to accompany the "FJ VSOs" that you mention. Also, they are all supported by 1-star ACOS with backgrounds in multis in AT/AAR and ISTAR roles with a whole bunch of OF-3 to OF-5 SMEs.

Also Project CATARA and GATEWAY had AT/AAR experienced Project Heads and seeing as they spanned 2x Cholly-Whopper and 3x Tornado AOCs then again I don't believe this is a 'FJ centric' decision.

Sorry old chum, I don't think you can pin this soley on FJ mates. It's just incompetence all around and that is all.

CPL Clott

[2Planks]

Calm down dears! All senior officers have to make a cost benefit analysis; for the very few days that Brize cannot operate beyond CatI, it's not worth it. A bit like saying there should never be a queue in A&E.


As for Mrs May tomorrow, I am sure that if they can see 2 lights on each side it will be just tickey boo! Just like it always has been.


MOVE ON!

[Onceapilot]

The simplistic argument is crass 2Planks. Otherwise, why do money-making civvi airlines pay for CAT III capability? :rolleyes:

Hi Clotty. Thanks for your selective recent listings of some senior posts showing 2/3 FJ appointments. I presume you don't seriously claim that FJ VSOs don't rule the roost on RAF policy, or maybe they shouldn't?:E

OAP

[BEagle]

There would need to be some very expensive land purchase and earth moving to be done before the approach to either RW could be better than Cat1...

The Brize village to Bampton road, the old Bampton road railway bridge and Lew Hill on the approach to RW25 as well as the well-known glideslope characteristics on RW07 pretty well rule out any change to the current situation.

RW07 (or 08 as was) had a 3.24° GS and was not approved for 'coupled' approaches - is that still the case?

[Easy Street]

OAP

If the FJ VSO mafia has been as one-eyed as you suggest, how do you explain the fact that the period 1991-2018 will have seen front-line FJ squadrons reduced from thirty-something to seven, with question marks over the modest re-growth plans trailed in SDSR15, while the previously-decrepit AT/AAR fleet has been comprehensively updated and will be by far the most capable in Europe for decades to come?

Tricky one, that. Don't waste your time.

[StopStart]

I'd suggest the FJ sqns were pared down to foot the enormous bill the phenomenally expensive F35 buy. C17s were leased/bought to fill the enormous gap in the AT heavy lift capability that had been conveniently ignored until enduring operations (and the government and public) demanded it. The A400 was a political/industrial purchase pure and simple that was bought into before we ended up with the very capable C17 fleet. Delayed/unavailable A400 capabilities has meant the extension of the C130 fleet by over 10 years. A330s were PFI'd because it was a politically easy, off-the-books deal that allowed the replacement of an utterly decrepit wide body AT/AAR fleet that had been ignored for decades. A direct purchase would've seriously dented that F35 budget....

[Airbubba]

What aircraft would the PM likely take to Washington? Would it be ZZ336?

SAM 28000 and SAM 29000 are essentially B-747-200's with no autoland or GPS capability.

Former President Obama and his entourage were unable to get into Palm Springs the other day in 28000 using the callsign of SAM 44 since they could only do a VOR approach:

http://www.pprune.org/north-america/590027-obama-s-last-usaf-747-flight.html

[Tankertrashnav]

Now, do not mention the TriStar Autoland accident. That was a pure human factors/crew error

Didn't stop the captain's subsequent promotion to 2* ;)

[Two's in]

for the very few days that Brize cannot operate beyond Cat I, it's not worth it.

Sometimes on operations the destination is more important than the origin...

[bugged on the right]

2 Planks, start rolling, there's one. oh and another. We're right to go.

[Corporal Clott]

Thanks for your selective recent listings of some senior posts showing 2/3 FJ appointments

Not exactly 'selective' - these are the 2-star and 4-star responsible officers for AT/AAR decisions from an operators' perspective. AOC 2 being the main person for this and either the CinC or latterly CAS agreeing this is Air's proposed way forward. There would off course be others, including some engineering VSOs as well, but frankly I ran out of the will to live finding the names of the operators!

I think others have filled in the gaps on the modernisation of the AT/AAR fleet quite nicely.

CPL Clott

[deltahotel]

This is only about departing in poor visibility? If so, providing the lighting is good enough, no Cat II or III required.

[Onceapilot]

Some amusing posts folks.:) The general standard of the AT/AAR equipment probably matches its needs after decades of being a right mixture. The Voyager PFI provides a good asset but, it comes at a hell of a price and, it is a political inheritance. The lack of vision surrounding the requirement for CAT III at the RAF hub of AT/AAR is simply astounding. I gave the reasons why it was kept out of the equation in the 80's, 90's and 00's. Lastly, there seems to be some confusion about the ability of AT/AAR to depart in low vis. Prospective pax on RAF AT will be reassured to know that the aircraft are operated to suitable RTS limitations by well trained crews.:ok:

OAP

[5aday]

In my day, Low Vis meant 600m and that was the distance that could be seen from the start point (threshold) using the lights as the measure /counter. Based in Jersey, we frequently sat at the threshold of RW27 waiting for the 600m.

[spekesoftly]

RW07 (or 08 as was) had a 3.24° GS and was not approved for 'coupled' approaches - is that still the case?

See:- RAF Brize Norton - Detailed Airfield Information (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbrizenorton/flyinginfo/detailedairfieldinfo.cfm)

ILS RWY 08 BZA 111.9 / RWY 26 BZB 111.9 (Autocoupled approaches to DH permitted to both rwy's)

[Basil]

The TriStar was one of the most capable low vis and autoland aircraft in the World.
The RAF should be ashamed of what they did to it.

[pontifex]

TTN

As far as I can remember he wasn't the captain, he was the sqn cdr.

[BEagle]

spekesoftly, that information is at least 5 years old...

According to 2016 information:

Rwy 07 ILS not suitable for auto-coupled approaches to Cat 1 DH

Aircrew may experience large fluctuations in glidepath guidance below 400’ AGL. In order to determine the extent of these fluctuations in glidepath guidance below 400ft all 07 ILS approaches will be monitored on PAR.

RW07 (08 as was) has always had an undulating glideslope!

[Tankertrashnav]

Pontifex - you may well be right, he was certainly the squadron commander but I was told he was also the captain of that flight. Duff gen probably!

[spekesoftly]

BEagle - thanks for the correction.

[Onceapilot]

Quote Basil
The TriStar was one of the most capable low vis and autoland aircraft in the World.
The RAF should be ashamed of what they did to it.

Yes, it was most capable and great to fly!:D
Not certain what the RAF should be criticised for though, other than not utilising the CAT III or, for not having another Sqn of them or, for not putting the wing pods on the tankers?:rolleyes:

OAP

[Wander00]

ISTR as a "lad" taking off in Canberras in Norfolk fog - frightened me sh1tless first time but got used to i

[2Planks]

Once a Pilot - why is my argument crass, as Beagle has pointed out it would cost a fortune to upgrade Brize, this has been done to death on this forum before. There would also be a training bill and a certification one for both the aircraft and airfield. So for the few days that aircraft have to divert the operational risk is not worth the financial penalty. Sure we would all like a 100% service at all times - but when it comes down to taxpayers money there is a limit. Of course, I am sure that the rump of the CFS empire and the Transport Command Trapping system would welcome it as they could take aircraft off the line for far more days; reminiscent of the hugely wasteful 'trainers' that survived well past their justifiable life. Though I acknowledge that these were massive fun for the crews and the trainers in particular.


For civil airlines it is entirely different, when a wide body is pushing back every 12 hours with £300k of fares on board there is a financial imperative to ensure the show stays o the road. For us in uniform it just means a spot more military waiting in the logbook. Of course some civvy airlines in the loco sector don't bother with anything beyond CatII as its deemed too expensive.

[deltahotel]

Mmm, but Land 2, which is Cat 3a is 200m RVR is still a great capability and it rarely gets worse than that. In the last 17 years, I doubt I've seen a dozen times when I've genuinely needed Cat 3b.

[Airbubba]

Well anyway, looks like the PM got off just fine, she's in ZZ336 at 10,000 feet passing Allentown, PA, callsign Kittyhawk 37 Heavy.

It appears that she is going into PHL landing to the west, ILS 27R.

The FR24 plot shows KRF37 departing Heathrow, not Brize Norton:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zz336/#c466872

[westernhero]

So let me get this right, the o/p started the thread on the premise that the PM would be left kicking her kitty heels at BN in thick fog coz the electrical wotsit wiz not up to the all singing and dancing standard that Heathrow uses every day. The RAF then decided that doing a ' Muhammed goes to the mountain' was the better option than keeping kitty heels waiting at BN. And thats it ? That's the story ? I wasted how much of my life reading this thread ? I've been conned, I need a no win no fee lawyer.

[Airbubba]

Yep, the plane was repositioned BZZ-LHR at 2015Z last night after the PM saw this thread. ;)

[Onceapilot]

Hi 2Planks,
I feel that the argument "it is too difficult/it costs too much" IS crass, set against the overriding imperative of some AT/AAR Ops. I have seen the paperwork on the ILS issues and I believe "the problems" could be overcome.:)
As far as expenditure on aircraft and crew training, I expect that the aircraft that are normally CAT III remain CAT III in RAF use (as the TriStar did) and crew qualification possibly already occurs for use at normal CAT III airports. If not, the training cost is not very high. :)

OAP

[RetiredBA/BY]

As you say, training costs are not high. I seem to recall, a morning in the classroom, a couple of hours in the sim and voila ! Few autos in the clear and you are good to go. An auto land is dead easy, it's the failure cases that take the learning !

One would think that with all RAF tanker and transport assets on just one runway, that. BZN would be kept as operational as technology allows.

[wiggy]

As BA/BY has said initial qual for the average modern widebody is probably involves only an hour or two in the sim, annual recurrent requirement is usually three approaches in the sim...can't see that breaking the bank.

OTOH the ground installation might well be a deal breaker cost wise, in the civvie world at least isn't just a case of a super duper ILS, there's all the added expense of CATIII runway and taxiway lighting, ground radar, even mundane stuff like secure fencing (perhaps not a issue at BZN)..

[Heathrow Harry]

ahhh - but they'd have to form a committee, and then specify something unknown to the commercial world and give a cost plus contract to BAe to build it... say 10 years Minister???

[Always a Sapper]

One would think that with all RAF tanker and transport assets on just one runway, that. BZN would be kept as operational as technology allows.

With all the RAF tanker and transport assets on just one runway, One would have thought they would have kept the spare flying.... :suspect:

But then that is another matter all together and has already been done to death on here before and a gert big streak of paint down the centre line.... :E

[Bing]

Or just enter the 21st Century and put an RNAV approach in at BZN...

[deltahotel]

Even if Brize can't be configured for Cat 3, why not maintain the ac to Land 3 and keep the crews low vis qualified? The lo vis qualification would allow for departures below 400m and landings worldwide down to 0/75.

[wiggy]

Or just enter the 21st Century and put an RNAV approach in at BZN...

This is being done to death elsewhere ( MLS thread). Would publishing RNAV approaches to BZN be any improvement over what they have now ( by way of comparison the minima down the road at LHR for RNAVS are way higher than even CAT 1 minima, typically around 500 ft DA and required RVRs over a kilometre.)?

OTOH there are trials going in the US at the moment are aimed at using GPS/GBAS for auto lands with 50 DHs...., so I'm sure GBASS CAT III low vis ops are on the way, even in the U.K....

However the problem is using GPS/GBAS for low vis ops still leaves the requirement to upgrade the airfield ground infrastructure.

[Airbubba]

The Prime Minister came back from Ankara Saturday night, landing at LHR at 2130Z. The plane was then repositioned to BZZ 90 minutes later.

Is it normal for the PM to depart and arrive at Heathrow? This does get around the low vis issues discussed here but I would think that security would be simpler at BZZ.

I can't recall Air Force One operating into Dulles instead of Andrews for example.

[West Coast]

I can't recall Air Force One operating into Dulles instead of Andrews for example.


Obama Switches Airports For Trip Abroad - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-switches-airports-for-trip-abroad/)

[Airbubba]

Thanks West Coast, I missed that one. :ok:

I'm guessing AF1 has never done inflight refueling with the President onboard.

I remember SECDEF Perry used to take an E-4B and refuel inflight 'to save time' a couple of decades ago.

[Bigbux]

A330s were PFI'd because it was a politically easy, off-the-books deal

and how does that work exactly.....never quite figured it out. Is it like still having cheques in your chequebook?

[Wander00]

Keeps the capital cost off the books - just a massive revenue spend......same with schools and hospitals

[Airbubba]

You folks are getting good use of your A330 tanker at Red Flag today.

ZZ335 callsign SNOW 01 is refueling Typhoon ZK333 callsign BLEED 31 north of Nellis at the moment:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zz335/#c51455e

ZJ692, a Global Express bizjet radar platform is doing a track at the south end of the Range at FL430 as TAN 07.