airspace use

[alpha control]

there is a reason for airways/ air-routes. Why not stick to them? If I'm controlling a difficult sortie, the last thing I need is some civvy traffic, storming through my merge-point. Use common sence. If you see a 24xx, 15xx or 13xx squawk, stay away. SIMPLE! You stick to your airspace, and I'll stay in mine. :D :D :D

[professor yaffle]

if it's outside controlled airspace how is it yours???

prof

[alpha control]

it may not be ours, but if civvys want to use the same airspace as us, they should realise, or at least appreciiate the type of work we will be caryying out, and just to stick to the airspace that is designated for their use only:p

[professor yaffle]

as previously stated it's everyones airspace!!
'sides on the occasions that i have tried to speak to one of you guys about, i might add, one of your own, after being transferred from pillar to post and back again just to speak to the controller was just silly!!

perhaps a bit of appreciation is needed on BOTH sides:D

prof

[alpha control]

prof,
You are the lucky one, you just have to deal with our outdated comms system, we have to control on an outdated system. If you saw what we control on, you would be scared

[Chilli Monster]

alpha

Maybe we should proportianalise airspace based on numbers of aircraft - that would free up lots more for the civil world and you'd be shoehorned into a corner of the North Sea.

Quit while you're ahead ;)

CM

[Cuddles]

Alpha

I've lost count of the number of times one of your Tornadoes has come charging at one of my aircraft, and I've rung you (or your sort) to 'co-ordinate', to be told, and I quote:-

"Class G pal, see and avoid"

If you were singing from the same hymnsheet things might be easier, but if you give it, you've got to learn to take it as well.

F3 at 450 KTS, Helicopter at 145 KTS, avoiding action to the heli means that you've essentially got the heli in the same place, just looking in a different direction when the airprox happens. Precisely what you need when you're obliged to give a RAS.
:rolleyes:

There's no point getting out the good pen and the paperwork, because nothing will ever change.

[foo fighting]

I'm not scared about your comms equipment.


Your attitude and lack of appreciation does give me the heebie jeebies though

:eek:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If only I could say publicly what I'd like to say....

[eyeinthesky]

He's having a laugh, ain't he?!!:D

I've lost count of the number of times I have had to call traffic (or worse) to civil airliners on an Upper Air Route in the NSEA because some trainee fighter ace under the 'control' (loose term) of one of the FC units has bust his coordination and looked like coming uncomfortably close to one of the 40+ aircraft AN HOUR (not a day) which transit the sector.

In demonstration of a lack of understanding, how many other people here have been rung by a FC with coordination which includes the phrase: 'My traffic not above 24000ft on the Yarmouth QNH'? What use is THAT to an airliner cruising at or descending to FL250? :rolleyes:

[Iron City]

Why on earth aren't the MIL controllers and Civil controllers operating out of the same rule book? There is only one airspace, it's all air, and using two (or are there more? a dark blue one, a light blue one, and maybe a green one for AAC) rule books is a prescription for disaster.

Can you spell "L I A B I L I T Y" ?


edited for seplling

[Hippy]

Jesus Alpha, we all know what a bunch of ***** you scopies are, there's no need to go around broadcasting it to the rest of the world! It's not your airspace, so go and take your poxy non-rule-of-the-air-conforming fighters somewhere where they're not likely to beat-up honest air traffic trying to earn a crust. And while we're at it, why can't you take them in and out of Coningsby yourselfs as well, instead of p***ing of to the tea-bar for an extra 10 mins.:rolleyes:

I would like to publicly distance the coments of this fighter controller from us Mil proper air traffic controllers.

:mad: Hippy

[Avoiding Action]

And I'd like to distance the rest of the FIghter Control world from alpha. We all get frustrated at times but this is not the place to say it in the manner you did. In 4 posts on one night you have completely f***ed up about 12 months of hard graft put in by myself, ADIS and smorg to bring a little understanding between FCs, military controllers and civilian controllers. Thanks a bunch:mad: If you use what intelligence you have and read the preceding posts, you will see that many military and civil controllers don't understand what we do. It is patent from your attitude that you don't care, let alone know, what they're trying to do. Manning levels and budgets mean that visits to each others' place of work are becoming a thing of the past. The only place we can get to know each others jobs better is on places like this and you have managed to put peoples' backs up so much that they're unlikely to listen to you impartially when you do have a genuine complaint. Do us all a favour and don't post again.
Next time you have a hard day at the office, go to the bar and get s**tfaced - I just pray I never have to control in the same ops room as you.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[smorg]

Hippy, I to am one of the **** scopies, but please please please do not think that we all have the same view as Alpha. For those with a rational mind the answer is simple. It is nobodies’ airspace and if we all stick to the same rules, we should all have easier lives.
As for the comments about being told it's class G airspace and we will not co-ordinate, this does happen but as rarely as possible and is normally because our beloved pilots tell us that they will not co-ordinate. But surely if both controllers talk and call at a sensible time a turn of 20 degrees is all that is required to make things usually safe.
Prof, As for being pushed from pillar to post just to speak to a controller, you should only have to talk to 2 other people first, the Fighter Marshaller ( that's where all the incoming calls route to) and the assistant (we cannot make 3 way calls so the assistant or controller can pick up the phone).

[120.4]

I heard not very long ago that since the Gulf War (well done boys) the front line fighting strength of the RAF has been cut by 50%. It seems to me that important though you are, the RAF doesn't need to be getting shirty with the civilians because in the grand scheme of things you are becoming less significant as time goes by.

To put things in perspective: The traffic forcasts suggest that the controlled airspace boundaries will expand significantly over the next decade. If the government decide to put TWO more runways at Stansted a VERY significant part of East Anglia's airspace will have to change class. Defence of our economy is pretty important too.

Point 4


:)

[Aunt Rimmer]

Appreciate some of you FCs are doing your best with valve sets, DF and drums. So, how do I get a visit round HMP Peterhead ?

BTW Alpha, go and read your book about Class F airspace - I'm getting pretty pissed off wheeling ATPs and SAABs with wimmin and children on board around the sky just to avoid your 2 on 2s across W6D and W3D. Do you know where/what they are ?

If you have a neck, I suggest you wind it in, or reposition it in your 6 o'clock :p

[Julian Andrews]

Alpha- some civilian ATCOs have no choice but to work large numbers of commercial, passenger-carrying traffic in Class G airspace. There are numerous airports in the UK which have no controlled airspace connection whatsoever to the airways structure (Bristol, Newcastle, Exeter etc) and they all take the sort of aeroplanes that you happily use when you and many, many others go on your holiday or want a weekend p**s up in Prague/Dublin etc- B757, Airbus and such like.

Along with many very professional colleagues (several of them ex-military ATCOs), I've been working all of our inbounds/outbounds in the open FIR for the last 17 years under such circumstances and it's hard work at times, providing a proper RAS whilst trying to avoid all the other "unknown"/unco-ordinated stuff you see, including military fast jets, which you are less-than-helpfully told are under a RIS/FIS only. And I do concur with some of the comments on this forum about the difficulty of co-ordinating with some (not all, by any means- EGDL are great) military units, for sure. And don't tell me that all I need to do to discharge my responsibility is to limit/downgrade the service: Fat consolation that is to a B757 driver with 234 folk down the back.

"Get more controlled airspace, then?", you say. Tried it lately? And who is likely to be one of the biggest objectors to any proposal that way? Anyone else want to chip in on this debate?

[alpha control]

JA
you have a good point there newcastle is a paticular example of this it is becoming increasingly more difficult for us to achieve a satisfactory outcome when more and more of the newcastle aberdeen traffic is all RAS, and we are operating overland up to 24k RIS. We do try to stay clear but at the end of the day we are not flying the aircraft, but we do go to great lengths with our aircrew to try and achieve seperation that will make your life a little easier.

[FWA NATCA]

alpha,

In the US, we vector around active miltary resticted areas and military operations areas, etc. Most RNAV or GPS aircraft always request direct to their destinations so unless there is a reason not to we will give direct. Airway and Jetway routing is slowly falling by the wayside as more aircraft install RNAV or GPS.

Mike

[ADIS5000]

Aunt Rimmer,

If you'd like a visit to HMP Peterhead then e-mail me.(Seriously!)

We can go and look for Alpha Control and kick the s**t out of him!!

Luv,

ADIS:cool:

[Avoiding Action]

Count me in on that s**t-kicking visit, ADIS. Always a pleasure:D

[TAD 069]

Can I join the s**t-kicking too? Evidently, Alpha has been qualified for all of 2 or 3 weeks and has decided to show us how important he is. The only problems being that:

a. He obviously doesn't possess an ounce of professionalism in his body.

and

b. Does not know, nor care, about how ATCOs (civilian or military) operate (which just confirms comment a).

Although, as FCs, we do struggle with archaic kit and FJ pilots who want to operate in a different manner to any other form of air traffic, it's no excuse for people like Alpha. It saddens me that I have to work with such t***s.

If Alpha, or any of his buddys, were to be filed-against, the CRC would be obliged to suspend his operating endorsement until at least a preliminary investigation has been carried-out. Can I encourage any ATCO who encounters an abnoxious, unhelpful FC like Alpha, and has a few minutes to do some paperwork, to take this course of action? It would keep him/her out of your hair for a day or two, and would mean that we could identify the victim of our shoeing!

But, please, we're not all like him - honest. :rolleyes:

[foo fighting]

very pleased to see the complete lack of support for Alpha by his/her colleagues who it also seems have a lot more experience than the one who spouts crap.

Perhaps the civility of Alpha's last post in comparison to the previous rants shows a vast improvement prompted by the tirade of abuse received back - I'm sure the comments posted were not those expected, especially from those you work with, so was it worth it old fruit? I for one would be horrified if I thought my workchums regarded my publicly stated views with such distaste as yours.

ATC is no place for people with such an appalling attitude for others in the job.

[MCME]

Jesus, I've been doin the FCs job for years now and I think I have just about heard it all, Alpha, you work in my Ops room and I will surely tell you a thing or two, probably kick you off console you arogant *&^%*&. :mad: The name says it all.
For a civilian bros out there, we may represent less than 10% of the ac movements thru UK airspace a year, but lets just say that given the dying threat of russian invasion, commercial demands for greater pay, airline and NATS included, you still need the scopies to train the mil aircrew to do something about possible Sep 11th scenarios.
Don't be afraid that the F3 Fj crews occasionally bust their restrictions, we apply coordination in exactly the same way as Mil ATCOS and CIVILIAN ATCOs too, but we still have to control the premadonas, all you have to do is share the airspace. Wait for the terrorist Hijack flying into the London TMA. Hairs rising on the back of your neck yet? Should be, cos mine do every time I think about ordering F3 at speed into "Indian country". Invariably we don't want to be there anymore than you want us there. But if you want to sleep at night, safely, free from the threat of a possible terrorist attack or non NATO mil ac flying through your CAS, you still need us. :mad:

[MCME]

foo fighting

Rest assured the hunt for the **** is on. If I get my hands on the imature inexperienced ******, I will personnally throw him to the lions on the first avail MIL ATCC Liaison visit I get the chance of, remembering to drop them a line first of course.

SMORG Yes I know who you are, you look in your ops rm and I will look in mine.

Big clue, I think the only reason Alpha's is so worried about the civiies getting in his way, is he is either a closet repressed IDRO or hasn't got a CQ yet.

Good Hunting

[AyrTC]

For what its worth I was" doing " Tay yesterday evening (wed) I had several Aberdeen deps Fir dct NEW and the mil chap at the end of the Neatishead phone had several tracks "******ing about" sfc to 24000ft.The coordination was excellent and it was almost a stress free hour.Well done .If I wore a hat I would take it off to you:)
Rgds
AyrTC

[Avoiding Action]

OK, how much has Neat paid you to say that?:D :D :D

[ORAC]

Forget this visit thing. Invite them to the Engineer's Walk. That should improve the relationship. :D

[canberra]

why will the amount of controlled airspace double in the next ten years? given that dakotas and viscounts are no longer in use by the majority of airlines i would have thought that it would decrease. on this subject did anyone read yesterdays telegraph? interesting article about doing away with airways, and about time too!