Wednesday Pay Talks [Archive]

unwise

6th Jul 2002, 19:48

Enough people are working on your side to get us all a fair and well deserved settlement. I agree the feedback should be better and we told BEC that from the outset. In any case, we have a definate mandate from the troops and they owe it to the membership to keep them informed.
As to the ballot for strike action, this will only take place after the deadline of 11 July has passed. I can only speak for myself, but I don't see this going any other way than out the door. Nats may well come out with an 11th hour offer but this will depend on the strength of the membership and our ability to stand by our words with a strong vote for action ;)

eyeinthesky

6th Jul 2002, 20:26

If I were in managment shoes and I had very little new to offer, I would be trying to come up with a whole series of 11th hour offers to get the deadline prolonged. I would do this for as long as possible until the summer is past and then the effect of any industrial action is relatively reduced.

Just a point which needs reiterating as it might have got lost recently: NATS offered 2.2% for this year and said there was no more money in the pot. What about the 10% or whatever it is that they have been saving for months now while they have been taking the pensions contribution holiday??? Where has that money gone? Seems like poor accounting to me.

The Manager

6th Jul 2002, 21:00

Eyeinthesky. Your first paragraph sounds like the normal 'negotiating' procedure. Also they may offer something that will please a few people, just to split the vote.

Also management will be looking if you have followed the correct procedure. If you have not, and you get a strike vote, then they could have it decared void in the high court.

sector8dear

6th Jul 2002, 22:22

Just a little point. The issue of ATCO pay and conditions is not an anual pay round issue. By making it so you are defeated from the start. Any amount agreed would have to be paid to ALL NATS staff, not just the ATCOs - think about it!

.....and when you have, detach it from the rest of the staff (which is what you would all like anyway) go on strike and I WILL enjoy driving you down like you did to me in the 70s - NO I have not forgotten!

Never will

Greedy people

Crotalus

6th Jul 2002, 23:33

Sector 8 dear..that sounds like a terribly big chip on your shoulder.Would you like to explain to me why the deal as it stands is a good deal for me?and how I am being greedy when it seems like the company is making all the savings on our backs?The pension holiday alone is saving heaven knows what!

I am sorry you sound bitter but what happened? ..go on get it off your chest As they say I'm Listening!:confused:

5milesbaby

7th Jul 2002, 07:30

and sector8dear, just remember after you have ploughed us into the gutter mouthing 'b@st*rds', that any better result we manage to gain will be lining your pocket anyway. Fancy joining us to show us how it should be done???

roger

7th Jul 2002, 08:37

As this is a sectional claim, I assumed that the atco basic pay will go up by whatever is negotiated and the others that voted yes by 2.2%(this year). However as uhp and the rest affects us all, whatever new is negotiated will go up across the whole of the staff that qualify for this payment. Is this correct?

Ps sector8dear did you ever apply to become an atco?

Bev Bevan

7th Jul 2002, 18:17

So far as I remember, PCS reserved the right to re-ballot it's members if the ATCOs negotiated an improved pay deal?

120.4

7th Jul 2002, 19:17

Sector 8, I may be mistaken.

I understood that the 2.2% stays on the table across the board. What we (they) are talking about now is the ATCO's sectional claim (yes/no?) which wouldn't be paid across the board.

Much of the ill feeling at the moment doesn't stem from the pay round issue anyway. I would say we are seeing the symptoms of being undervalued for a decade, manifesting themselves in a fight over pay.

Irrespective of your views over the pay issue, to say "...go on strike and I WILL enjoy driving you down like you did to me in the 70s - NO I have not forgotten!" is an indication of someone who is out of control of their emotions. If you mean it you are sick, if you don't its just rhetoric and why say it?

I think you ought to calm down a bit.

Point 4

:)

Greebson

7th Jul 2002, 19:29

Sector 8
You may be surprised to know that (wild guess) at least 50% of current ATCOs were at school or maybe not even born in the 1970s so what exactly are you complaining about? Time to fast forward and forget it's a new century, we've even got television in every house.

Undercover

8th Jul 2002, 09:12

Couple of points... It's not the fault of the union negotiators or management that you aren't getting more info on what's being discussed at these meetings. Procedure for such meetings is that all talks are confidential and must not be divulged until the meeting is closed. We aren't hearing anything much because they are adjourning the meetings. So both sides know they can't go out to staff with details at this point.

Also... yes they are addressing the ATCO sectional claim... but any negotiated increase in basic pay and conditions would be implemented accross the board... not that I think you'll get a increased offer on basic pay anyway!

Buster the Bear

8th Jul 2002, 09:29

Following on from the mid-air last week and SkyGuard reducing flow through Swiss airspace by 20%, European newspapers are reporting a shortfall of around 2000 ATCO's throughout the EU.

Flying now is becoming a little worrying, a bit like travelling on a train. I never used to question its safety, but now..........I certainly do!

It would appear that there are a whole load of circumstances leading to the accident over Germany, just like recent rail crashes, ATCO's are just at the blunt end of a lack of investment in the industry over the last decades.

Good luck with your pay quest, you are worth every penny.

2 six 4

8th Jul 2002, 09:58

The issue of ATCO pay and conditions is not an anual pay round issue. By making it so you are defeated from the start. Any amount agreed would have to be paid to ALL NATS staff, not just the ATCOs - think about it!

Quite right. Any certified LCE, Assessor, verifier or OJTI will be entitled to a negotiated increase, whether they are ATCOs or not, resulting from the ATCOs claim.

So far as I remember, PCS reserved the right to re-ballot it's members if the ATCOs negotiated an improved pay deal?

And having accepted the baic deal they will have to negotiate another or threaten industrial action like the ATCOs have done. A difficult option. Just a bit like saying I voted Lib Dem but if the Tories win I want to change my vote !!

expediter

10th Jul 2002, 20:15

Now the closing date is near, can we know whats on/not on the table?

radar707

10th Jul 2002, 20:33

I thought the closing date was tomorrow, however I understand that management and prospect were meeting today for further discussions.
Anyone privvy to the putcome of the discussions or are we going to have to wait and wait and wait

Jo Blob

10th Jul 2002, 21:12

Prospect will tell you when the negotiations are finally over.

The results will then be balloted.

Nice to see PCS accepting the original pay offer, then demanding the rewards of the ATCO's quest for fair pay!

"But my job is on the line"....SIR....

Then you should have voted NO to the pay offer, and not make yoursevles look daft! You have shown to senior management a willingness to give in! They will be back later to deal with you! You need to stand up and be counted and prove that you are a seriously needed part of NATS. Sad really that you cant see what will happen if you dont fight now!

The ATCO's are on a sectional pay quest, so no hard feelings if they get a good rise and the ATSA's dont!

After all, you (The ATSA's) voted to accept the 'poor' pay rise!

120.4

10th Jul 2002, 21:33

Rumour, and I stress RUMOUR has it that management are prepared to fight. The union reps can't say anything yet and it seems it is not quite cut and dried but the hot money is on a ballot for industrial action.

That being the case and after the cycle we are having at TC it seems certain we will be out by mid August.

Point 4
:(

2 six 4

10th Jul 2002, 23:05

Sorry sector 8 I must have missed your response to my post.

AREA52

10th Jul 2002, 23:26

Oh dear:( , it would appear that Sector8Dear has thrown his/her teddies out of the pram yet again and returned to the forum with yet another less than informed argument.

It is quite clear that you do not appear to have grasped the union process, and are not aware that this ATCO sectional claim has been on the agenda for a few years now, but has never been addressed. Well, the time has come!

As far as I am aware, any increase on offer will be ATCO specific and issues which effect all staff will be avoided, what would you do if you were management?:rolleyes:

Perhaps it's time you wound your neck in on this one and returned to sector 8, whatever planet that is on old dear:rolleyes:

Fallows

11th Jul 2002, 06:49

Re Jo Blobs comments about the ATSA pay claim, I heard the majority of ATSAs actually voted no, but as PCS represents admin grades as well and that the vote was carried on the admin grades vote. Maybe it is time for us all to be in one union and not have this archaic system which helps the management to "divide and rule" IMHO

AREA52

11th Jul 2002, 11:50

No disrespect to the ATSA's, but I think ATSA pay is pretty damn good for what the job entails. It would be pretty hard to get that sort of money outside NATS.

However, I do respect the view that if most of the ATSA's are voting no, and the majority of non-op people appear to be voting yes, it's a non-runner from the start. But as an ATCO at Swanwick, we have also had similar problems with other units voting yes in the past, this is only now starting to change as they start to feel what we have felt for the last ten years or so.

I'm afraid that the last thing that management would want to do is increase the salary of staff who they hoped would not be required at Swanwick, or as has turned out, may not be required in the future. This would of course enhance redundancy settlements:eek:

As a result of this, I think you would find that most ATCO's would be looking to go the other way as they would feel that they have more chance of improving their pay and conditions as a smaller, more concentrated unit, for the very reasons that you have stated.;)

Karoshi

11th Jul 2002, 19:48

Whilst I would agree that ATSAs are relatively well paid, lets not forget that many of them are now doing jobs that were once ATCO tasks (and under the ATCO salary scale). The taxiway lighting panel at Gatwick, the FIR at LACC, Oceanic clearance delivery and previoulsy the SSA at LATCC, to name a few. ATSA tasks are many and varied across NATS and I'm not sure that it's that easy to generalise about ATSA pay.

2.2% is a lousy pay deal whatever grade you are (ATSAs have families and mortgages too).

Anyway, the price of a cup of tea at LATCC has just gone up by over 30% so there goes any pay rise that I might see.

Jo Blob

11th Jul 2002, 21:00

Now if I was a senior NATS manager, I would 'test' the industrial action vote.

They will be looking for a split having offered a 'tad' more above the initial offer. (I am guessing).

If the ATCO's accept, then they (The Management) have the high moral ground, if the ATCO's decline to accept, then see panic from seniors!

Trust your union judgement on this, listen and hear what they have to say, then vote!

radar707

11th Jul 2002, 22:19

It would seem that Prospect have once again let us down.
My union rep stated categorically that management had until today to come up with a better offer, otherwise there WILL be a ballot on industrial action.
From the intranet today, after yesterdays meeting, another one has been scheuled for next week, and no doubt another on for the week after that, and so on until the summer will be over before we can walk out.
Surely putting the vote to the membership will only enhance the negotiating position if NATS don't come up with a decent offer.

Management will be laughing all the way back to their offices after these meetings.

Come on Prospect, listen to your members and DO SOMETHING

Crotalus

11th Jul 2002, 22:57

Karoshi ...just a small point but I think that pre atsas on oceanic clearance delivery it was done by Clearance Delivery Officers who were not Atco's.Still well paid BUT the terms they are a changing ..ask the latest batchat BFS .

Karoshi

12th Jul 2002, 10:08

Zerouali...you are mistaken. The vast majority of the ATSAs that I speak too recognise that the ATCOs are not well paid and support them entirely. As an ATSA, I also recognise that salary comparasions between the two grades do not achieve much (even though some ATSAs are now doing what was once an ATCO task).

The crux of the matter is that 2.2% is not a good deal, regardless of grade. The rift that is developing at times between ATCO and ATSA in this forum surely has to be one of the great downsides to this whole affair.

We need a reasonable pay rise for all, and a recognition that the ATCOs have other issues that need to be sorted.

Christopher James

12th Jul 2002, 10:46

Radar 707

I understand your frustration.

As it has been explained to me: Management made an offer with lots of strings attached which the union rejected as unacceptable and then responded with the "minimum" that would be acceptable.

It seems that management are desperate to get the service provision up to an acceptabele level and want to use overtime to make up for the shortage. Using that as a lever, another meeting on Monday involving Mr Everett will see another offer made. It seems there is significant reason to expect that it will be acceptable and on that basis the union have decided to hear it. Again, I understand your frustration but to hear that offer doesn't seem unreasonable if they think it will be what we want to hear. We don't want to go out if it can be avoided do we?

However, it only needs to be a short meeting...yes or no.

CJ

Ichabod

12th Jul 2002, 12:42

I would agree there is nothing wrong with attending yet another meeting with management, but what is wrong with continuing with the ballot for industrial action in the mean time? If the offer given is fair then we can accept it, if not then we haven't wasted yet more time!:mad:

Over+Out

12th Jul 2002, 13:12

The offer that Prospect have in their hand has been rejected.
There are now notices at work about it. It is something like this;
original offer stays, extra 2% (1/2 spine point) for ATCO's from 1st Oct with loads of string attached. Voluntary overtime is OKed by Prospect and will be paid on a daily rate, TOIL can be bought back by the Company.
They are meeting again next week, maybe Monday?

Christopher James

12th Jul 2002, 19:16

Ichabod:

On the surface of it that seems fair enough. Trouble is, I believe there is something in the industrial relations act which says that you cannot ballot for industrial action if you are still negotiating. You have to get to the end of the line first.

As I have said, if they believe there is a good chance the offer will be acceptable then it would be pointless stopping things just so we can make the deadline.

We will know by Monday. Either the offer is up to our requirements or it isn't and in that case we vote.

CJ

OrsonCart

12th Jul 2002, 21:01

Half a spinal point for all staff, even for those even at the top?

I dont like strings, they tie you up and eventually strangle you.

I expect a letter from Prospect tomorrow based upon thier mail shot to staff after the consultative ballot. July 11th deadline and all that!

I want a pay rise, and not a change in my working practices, those will involve an extra payment!

Too much wool over union eyes!

Look here Prospect, we want a pay rise, not a fundamental change to our terms and conditions!

Ichabod

12th Jul 2002, 21:24

C.J Yes, there are laid down rules governing industrial action. However, the deadline for resolution was 11th July so technically attempts to resolve the situation have failed and a ballot should have been called. Many other companies ballot for action and between the time of the ballot and the action continue to negotiate to resolve the matter. All legislation says is
"An industrial action ballot should not take place until any agreed procedures, whether formal or otherwise, which might lead to the resolution of a dispute without the need for industrial action have been completed and consideration has been given to resolving the dispute by other means, including seeking assistance from the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (ACAS). A union should hold a ballot on industrial action only if it is contemplating the organisation of industrial action. "

I think we have satisfied these requirements with a few wasted meeting to spare!!:p

sector8dear

12th Jul 2002, 23:43

AREA52 I probably have a better and more comprehensive understanding of the Union process than you do.

You make my point for me brilliantly, this ATCO claim has probably been on the agenda for a while now. This is PRECISELY my point, it's not an anual pay round thing, it's a Working Practises thing.

Don't confuse the two, the anual pay round is not the forum for basic changes to the contract of employment or basic pay scales.

While I'm on my high horse, non-op staff are voting yes because

1.) they don't have the previously mentioned long running "sectional" claim and

2.) your claim is purely for your selves NOT for other staff, why should they vote to assist you, after all quoting you from this thread "I think ATSA pay is pretty damn good for what the job entails" and "As far as I am aware, any increase on offer will be ATCO specific and issues which effect all staff will be avoided" is what you said other posts.

So why the surprise that non-ATCO don't support you.

Some of my previous comments stand, I think!

tug3

13th Jul 2002, 02:08

Disregard previous post elsewhere on the subject of %s - can't count - calculator thrown out of pram - where's that Teletubbies video?

Rgds
T3

PS Ignore the link by Fish Food, it is no more!

ZIP250

13th Jul 2002, 08:08

Hi Fishy,

Your link does not work.

ZZZZ

All Systems Go

13th Jul 2002, 08:09

Can someone explain to thick ole' me then what the pay deal being offered, as posted by Over+out means? Is it a 2 year deal where ATCOs get 2% on top of the 2.2% for this year and then 3.7% +2% the next? I thought you lot were totally against a 2 year pay deal? And how can this be offered to just ATCOs? I know you chaps are the one who are fighting this but can Prospect, our wonderful joint union negotiate for just one part of the union? I'm not trying to be silly cos I don't understand the way this works as I'm but a wee sprog. I was under the impression that what was negotiated for one, was negoiated for all. And if it is just an ATCO extra 2%, then I want a refund on my union dues cos I've been duped!! Yes, I know my lot voted no before anyone points that out. More importantly, however, are all these strings going to be acceptable? they look extremely unacceptable to anyone on the face of it.

Christopher James

13th Jul 2002, 14:10

The strings are not acceptable which is why the offer was rejected.

What will not be accepted is any dependance on reaching certain parameters as assessed by management, like the "bonus" was. Prospect is prepared to offer OPM (which will probably be to our benefit anyway) and approval of VOLUNTARY overtime. However, overwork has been a major issue in our relationship with management so how we can then turn around and volunteer to do overtime?

Monday will be the day.

CJ

callyoushortly

13th Jul 2002, 14:23

CJ
Call me naive but.......
How do you see that OPM will be to our advantage!?

The idea of the trial of OPM, that we're supposedly taking part in soon doesn't seem to be going down well on the unit, doesn't that say something??

1261

13th Jul 2002, 15:23

I don't know.... no more kipping on the night shifts!

The end of the world is nigh......

Christopher James

13th Jul 2002, 16:13

Hi Callyoushortly

I certainly could be wrong.

However if I understand correctly OPM will show clearly how long some people are having to work without a break. (On my sector the other day, ALL ATCOs went over the 90 minutes WPP and I know there are others much worse off. It inspired some interesting comments in the log!) That ought to put the union in a strong negotiating position. Until recently flow due staff was being put down as a "capacity" problem. The truth is it is down to staff and I think OPM will prove that. It won't solve the problem, that I accept, but at least the truth about staff levels will be clear.

As far as nights are concerned I don't see why anything need change (much). All OPM will do is show we are doing (ish) what we have a dispensation to do. I also believe we can quite reasonably argue on safety grounds that it is better to allow the "spare" staff a full rest so that when the morning deluge arrives they are fresh. If we get an agreememnt to do it then it doesn't matter that OPM will show it.

CJ

foo fighting

13th Jul 2002, 20:48

On the issue of overtime.

Can't see a problem at all myself - infact it is a bloody good idea.

For those about to scream greedy hypocritical atco hold on a mo.

It is to the benefit of all on duty that there are more bodies to share the workload during a shift. Faced with the difference between hour on - break or hour and a half on - break I know what I would chose.

So it isn't about doing more work, it's about doing less with a comfort zone.

The other satisfying thing now is to get Everitt's letter out of wherever it was filed and cast eyes upon the line that went something like have no doubt this is the final offer.

Looks like the victory is ours.

All Systems Go

13th Jul 2002, 22:44

Are we talking Area at sunny Swanwick or TC at wet West Drayton when we talk about OPM here? I remember not an awful long time ago, when a wonderfully new system was installed in RV west at LATCC called OPM was shot down in flames cos a certain union objected to big Bruv watching his and her members? So your telling me that your now happyto watch Big Bruv watch your toilet breaks and fag breaks? Amd if it is a TC type system, have they found a better way of logging you on and off sector other than the wonderful barcode that would be stuck on the butt end of your passes?

Expeditedescent

14th Jul 2002, 16:15

Well overtime sounds good in the short term, but this only applies until Dec 2003........so what about long term?

Is it pensionable?

I have been told by Union people that due to SRATCOH we could only do 1 overtime duty per month due to 64 and 50 hour blocks we are obliged to take away from work. This is based on the 6 on 4 off 5 watch system in use at TC and MACC.......and shortly at NERC (SCATCC too?).

I disagree slightly with meldrewv about the public. I think in light of recent events we would have the public right behind us. My experience of public perception from neighbours and friends of family members is that the public believe we have an impossible job and are grossly overworked. They believe we are stressed, working with sub-standard equipment and under enormous pressure daily. The media have helped our cause tremendously recently, and I am sure the mid-air tragedy has focused a few minds.
I think we would have a good support if our Union can put over an effective PR campaign. Some may earn £45,000 a year, Roy Keane earns £60,000 a week.................

We would never be allowed out on strike for a number of reasons:

1. Management know it would cause the company to collapse. The banks would lose everything and the govt would be humiliated

2. I have it on authority from a senior Union man that no less than Tony Bleeeeeeeuuugh has insisted that a strike must be avoided at all costs.

3. The airlines could never survive. Look at BA.........if we go out a few days each month, how long will it take for them to do a Swissair or Sabena........what about bmi, the charters.........we could decimate the UK aviation industry. Can you seriously suggest the airlines would allow this to happen. Take EZY for example, they run a pretty tight ship, profit margins are tight.......See what effect grounding the fleet for days at a time will have.........you think they will let that happen?

4. Who seriously can replace us? Face it if NATS goes belly up, the govt has a legal obligation to provide ATC serices.......who are they going to use to replace us.........or would they be planning on closing the skies for a few years until they train up replacements.

The way I see things, if we do go out it will be some short term pain (which I could do without), however the long term gains are worth it. Remember too that the best pay awards we have had in recent memory all came after the last strike.

fish food

14th Jul 2002, 17:23

Seems to me that its only NERC where the proposed overtime will occur, so no effect, (either detremental or beneficial), will be felt elsewhere. (ATSAs can't even get OT at ScOACC!).

Well said Meldrew re. Nav Canada working practices - individual rosters AND compulsory overtime at certain units from what I understand! (Not terribly happy bunnies across the pond).

To those at NERC, (incl. foo fighting), be carefull what you wish for...

;)

Christopher James

14th Jul 2002, 17:48

Meldrewv;

I agree completely with your point about fatigue on nights. There is little doubt that working broken nights to satisfy Scratcoh is more fatiguing than what many of us currently do... And that is my point. Bending the rules will be okay so long as nothing goes wrong. If it ever does, somebody will pick up on it and we will be exposed to the law. It seems to me that we should lobby SRG in for approval to do what we are doing, on the grounds that it is actually safer.

Also, it is not unreasonable for managment to check that our practices conform to the law... they have a responsibility in that regard. I see no danger in OPM.

CJ

250 kts

14th Jul 2002, 18:02

Once overtime is accepted then we can wave bye bye to EVER being correctly staffed. Both employers and employees will come to rely on it and the incentive to get things right disappears.

The dispute at present should not be linked to a Working Practice issue under any circumstances. Management need us to get them out of the mess on Service provision and want to link it into a 2 year deal. I for one would prefer NO rise this year than to be locked into this type of deal-at least we then have our arms free to negotiate properly over WP issues which will raise their heads soon.

The last thing people should be doing is indicating their willingness to attend more often than they do now. If they do they are in danger of blowing out of the water any arguments on fatigue/SRATCOH improvements or enhanced relief.

Also just ask whether people on part time contracts would be eligible-I suspect they can't be discriminated against so they would be able to boost their salaries to a full time rate and still not work nights-maybe we should all offer to go part time.

This course is full of hidden problems and people need to look a bit further than short term cash and go for the long haul in providing decent renumeration for what we do.

Yes it may come to some sort of action but let's do it now and not let the present climate continue. It's time to put up or shut up. If we do the latter then the AG will be all over like a rash over the next few years and it won't only be the volunteers who will be attending more often.:( :( :( :(

professor yaffle

14th Jul 2002, 18:51

for interest:
on mmaannsooo shift pattern, to comply with sratcoh, you can only do o/t when you work mmaaddoooo, on the third day off. any other day or night combination will not comply., and can only do m or a shift not night o/t.
UNLESS you are on leave, then of course you can do whatever shift you want!
which will completely ****** up your leave if you had plans to go anywhere
and yes o/t is pensionable and taxable

prof

Expeditedescent

14th Jul 2002, 19:58

Overtime as pensionable........

That would only apply if you were within 10 years of retirement would it not as your pension is based on the final 10 years of pensionable salary?

Therefore if you are 10+ years away from retirement OT will have no bearing on your final pension at all.

Is that right or have I missed something here?

Spotter

14th Jul 2002, 21:07

What difference does it make if the union agree to voluntary OT anyway. As I understand it the word voluntary means that you have to agree to do it.

Personally I value my time off far too highly to be bothered going to work any more than I do already. Others may disagree. That's their business & who am I to say they shouldn't?

In my opinion if OT is offered & they can't find people prepared to do it that's a pretty strong signal being given out.

If they don't have a problem getting the bums on seats for a few poxy quid then are you really so overworked & stressed out?

Go on...tell me I'm wrong

Warped Factor

14th Jul 2002, 21:29

250kts, Spotter,

I quite agree.

WF.

OrsonCart

14th Jul 2002, 21:30

6% employee pension contribution will be payable on all overtime.

Some NATS units already allow overtime to compensate for sickness, compassionate leave etc.

Christopher James

14th Jul 2002, 22:11

250kts

Absolutely right.

Spotter, I believe you are right too. OT will take much pressure off management to resolve the long term manning issue and that is not in our interest. There will always be some who are prepard to do OT but I think that might lead the rest of us into a long term mess. I would rather that door wasn't opened in the first place. Managment will know that risk may sway us against it and therefore have to offer sufficient money to make it irresistable to enough people. £500 a day will achieve that.
CJ

Expeditedescent

14th Jul 2002, 22:57

But Orson I thought NATS were taking a pensions holiday, so does that mean they would contribute to the pension on overtime but not regular salary?

Anyway, I agree with others here, OT is a dangerous road to go down, and if we go for it we will have yet again shot ourselves in the foot and blown a golden opportunity to put management under serious pressure.

Management need to find REAL, LONG TERM solutions to the staffing crisis, and overtime is not it under any circumstances.

If we blow this one, we may as well give up hoping for a decent rise in BASIC PAY..........no bonuses, no overtime, no other crap...........basic pay that will last long term, and will be pensionable for all.

Nogbad the Bad

14th Jul 2002, 23:06

OVERTIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stuff it up your A**E !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All it will do is make people MORE tired, and bail "management" out of a situation that they have brought on themselves !!!!!!

I am very surprised that Prospect would even CONSIDER agreeing to overtime !!!

WHAT THE HADES DO THEY THINK THEY ARE DOING ???????????

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Lieutenant Dan

14th Jul 2002, 23:18

Surprised by Prospect? Well, hell froze over a long, long time ago...

Wheelybin

15th Jul 2002, 00:25

Small point here but I believe it is important. We do not work a 6 on 4 off shift, we work a 6 on ,SLEEP DAY,3 off shift pattern.
To call a day that you work between midnight and 7am as a day off is succumbing to Management speak.

1261

15th Jul 2002, 06:14

We are allowed to do overtime at our place; as stated above, in order to comply with SRATCOH you can only do overtime when you are on leave.

Personally, I generally don't take overtime when offered: after Gordon Brown's had his slice there's only about £70 left for me - not really worth bu**ering up your leave plans for......

BLIPDRIVER

15th Jul 2002, 13:02

This pay deal is getting rather confusing. Do not mix pay deal with WPP, that is additional. We are talking about being paid properly for the job that we do, whether TC, Swanick or Scatcc and airports. The degree of complexity and shear numbers of flights is no longer commensurate with the job. Period.
For those of you wishing to go down the O/T route, Don't. Its full of dangers. Just look at those countries where the management went down this road, those ATCO's do not have a life! Go visit Norway, The USA, Canada etc, the facts are there. As a very hard working LATC Atco, with 20 plus years on radar, I do not want to work any more than i do. Why? Well first of all i wish to get to retirement age with out being medically wounded, which means i can enjoy my pension after all those hard years hanging on Tc OCK. Secondly, do you honestly want to be one of those Atco's in their 40's and 50's comming in for extra attendances. I think not. Get serious. Its all very well for the youngsters desperate for more money to survive in the South east, buts thats about being paid properly, not doing O/T for higher pay.

------------------------------------------------------------

If we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

OrsonCart

15th Jul 2002, 14:18

Expeditedescent, read my comments again:-

6% employee pension contribution will be payable on all overtime.

The employer should match this figure, but as we all know, it is holiday season!

Hope this helps?

fish food

15th Jul 2002, 23:21

Wheelybin - couldn't agree more, a sleep day is NOT a day off.

Oceanic can have you rostered 'til 0900 on a night-shift and with the eastbound flow at a peak between 0300 and 0700 its not exactly a stroll down easy street. (Particularly when the body is at its lowest mental and physical ebb at around 4am).

Agree wholeheartedly with other comments - why work myself into an early fitting for a pine overcoat for these b*****ds!:mad:

SensibleATCO

15th Jul 2002, 23:26

Fish food...............

If you are not working.........it's a day off.................PERIOD

Regards
SATCO

Ichabod

16th Jul 2002, 00:27

SATCO
I think you need to get a grip. The previous posts have already said that they are working on part of that so called sleep day. A night shift will run over into 2 days, the majority of it falling on the 'sleep' day. So it is in fact a worked day and not a day off: PERIOD:o

Big Nose1

16th Jul 2002, 01:18

SensibleATCO,
what a very inappropriate handle you have:( :(

Let me spell it out again for the hard of hearing. You work from Tue night 2200 till 0700 Wed morning, therefore you work 7 hours of Wed ie you work Wed......................... and it is not a day off...................period!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nogbad the Bad

16th Jul 2002, 10:27

Sensible ATCO.......

You have proved in other threads that you are FAR from sensible, so why not think about changing your nick ???

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

fish food

16th Jul 2002, 16:09

SATCO - You are, of course, quite correct...

If I'm not working, I'm on a day off.

I work: MMAANNSOOO

There are 3 days during which I do not work, I therefore have 3 DAYS OFF every cycle.

Not that it will apply to me, but they could offer me as many £, $, € or whatever they liked, but "dragged kicking and screaming" would be the only way they'd ever get me to do O/T! I hope the rest of my colleagues feel likewise!

FF

Mr_Grubby

16th Jul 2002, 17:19

Sensible Atco, Nogbad the Bad, Big Nose 1.

Come on guys, wind your necks in. We do not need to fall out between ourselves. We have a common enemy here, Management. Don't let them see that we are bickering amongst each other. Remember, 'The workers united will never be defeated'

Mr Grubby

Expeditedescent

16th Jul 2002, 17:28

Orson,

Thanks for spotting my deliberate error.....very observant of you !

I think a visit to the opticians is in order........must be all those dodgy fonts :)

I really did not mean to start off such a spat over 6 on 4 off........I was really only making a broad generalisation......its a lot quicker to type than "2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights/or spins, 1 sleep day and three days off".......... :)

Anyway SATCO after having a pretty unfair pop at me in the other thread, I have a suggestion for your new handle......TWATCO.........much more appropriate :) :)

PS: Get some sleep you seem to be very tired........might explain why you are so touchy and irritable :)
Why do you come here if all you do is yawn at people........got nothing better to do?