Emirates pilot refuses alcohol test

[momo95]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/32971331/emirates-flight-cancelled-after-pilot-refuses-breath-test/#page1

[White Knight]

The OM-A is very blunt about refusing a test; unfortunate for the pilot involved but we all know the rules...

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Yup, the second very senior guy to go this way in a short period.

SyB :sad::sad:

[halas]

Geoffrey Thomas with all the facts.

Emirates, unlike some airlines, encourages its pilots, no matter how junior, to speak up if they are concerned about issues such as the ability of a fellow crew member to perform their duties.

Seriously?

Airline staff are prohibited from drinking eight hours before a shift and pilots cannot have a blood alcohol content over 0.04.

12 and 0.02

The most famous case was in 1990 when all three Northwest Airlines flight crew were intoxicated when they flew a Boeing 727 from Fargo, North Dakota to Minneapolis.

Probably the most memorable flight for all those concerned.

halas

[EDDT]

Those alcohol limits depend on each country and their laws, or does your om-a state own limits? To my suprise, they seem quite relaxed in Australia (0,04%)

[TowerDog]

The other day an SAS Captain was carted away to the police station for blowing 0.01.
You get that from drinking a glass of apple juice or brushing your teeth, yet he got removed from his airplane due to over-eager cops..

SAS captain with blood alcohol content stopped at Gardermoen - Norway Today (http://norwaytoday.info/news/sas-captain-blood-alcohol-stopped-gardermoen/)

[Odins Raven]

The article states 100 pax were affected but the route is being operated by the 380. Are loads normally that light on a PER?

[The.Humble.Guy]

Here we go again... thread drift initiated by Odins Ravin. @OR: Start a new thread if you're interested in route loads. The topic of the thread concerns a pilot who refused an alcohol test.

[piratepete]

I have been drinking alcohol EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY WHOLE LIFE and I never ever found it addictive yet.......

[Odins Raven]

Here we go again... thread drift initiated by Odins Ravin. @OR: Start a new thread if you're interested in route loads. The topic of the thread concerns a pilot who refused an alcohol test.

No, didn't mean to drift thread - just expected a 777 on that route so wondered if it was someone I'd worked with.

Apologies for troubling you x

[Odins Raven]

I have been drinking alcohol EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY WHOLE LIFE and I never ever found it addictive yet.......

True but I guess you can say that about most addictions - it's probably the reason for drinking rather than the actual drink.

[JAYTO]

dry humour is a lost art on the recent generations

[Icelanta]

EASA rules: no more alcohol 8 hours before duty, not 12, although that might be an internal company policy. ( as long as you have less than 0.02, you are ok in reality).

They can ask me to undergo a breath test anytime before I enter my aircraft, but out of public view. ALWAYS insist on that.
Once I enter my aircraft, I have command and any unpolite clowns will be thrown off.

[notapilot15]

He was upset after reading STC's comments on pilots and automation.

[Odins Raven]

dry humour is a lost art on the recent generations

Ha! How did I miss that?

Well I'm four hours behind that timezone so let's say it was an early post before my morning coffee ;-)

[TangoUniform]

Remember, it is not the "official" report time when the clock starts, it's when you show up for pickup in uniform. We've had testing when an individual has been tested,, stepping off the elevator at a down route hotel.

[JAYTO]

so then the official sign on time is when we get picked up...... oh hold on.....

lol


J

[Kapitanleutnant]

TU speaks the truth.

Long time ago an FO was indeed tested in the before pickup time waiting for the bus to depart to the airport at an outstation.

He was over the limit. The outstation personnel had him go to the airport on the bus and retake the test again to which he passed. But since he had been over the limit at pickup time, he was offloaded and ended up deadheading back to Dubai.

At the hearing while talking to EGT, the pilot in question brought the fact that the OM-A stated the timing was 12 hours prior to sign in but the bus time was about 1.5 hours prior to sign in. EGT said, "That's not how we interpret the rules". So it is indeed when you step off the elevator into the lobby wearing your uniform in public view.

At that point, he was terminated.

I know this firsthand as the pilot in question told me the story himself.

Kap

[Talparc]

beeing fatique has the same influence as having alcohol in your blood but nobody cares!
Keep on rowing slaves.

[Odins Raven]

TU speaks the truth.

Long time ago an FO was indeed tested in the before pickup time waiting for the bus to depart to the airport at an outstation.

He was over the limit. The outstation personnel had him go to the airport on the bus and retake the test again to which he passed. But since he had been over the limit at pickup time, he was offloaded and ended up deadheading back to Dubai.

At the hearing while talking to EGT, the pilot in question brought the fact that the OM-A stated the timing was 12 hours prior to sign in but the bus time was about 1.5 hours prior to sign in. EGT said, "That's not how we interpret the rules". So it is indeed when you step off the elevator into the lobby wearing your uniform in public view.

At that point, he was terminated.

I know this firsthand as the pilot in question told me the story himself.

Kap

Was that the one in SIN where the Canadian was reported by one K****d Al G****l..? If I remember correctly the story went something along the lines of the guy chatting up a hostie in a bar, a hostie that KAG was wanting to get his slimy hands on. Once KAG found out he was close to limits for drinking he reported him to the company who had the testers waiting at pick-up time...

All second hand tales of course so could be BS - but wouldn't surprise me either if true, having met that individual on several occasions...

[Officer Kite]

Was that the one in SIN where the Canadian was reported by one K****d Al G****l..? If I remember correctly the story went something along the lines of the guy chatting up a hostie in a bar, a hostie that KAG was wanting to get his slimy hands on. Once KAG found out he was close to limits for drinking he reported him to the company who had the testers waiting at pick-up time...

All second hand tales of course so could be BS - but wouldn't surprise me either if true, having met that individual on several occasions...

Is this an airline or Eastenders ? 😂😂😂

[old freightdog]

Just to clear up one point, only 100 Pax were ´affected´, because the rest were rebooked. Not that it matters, given the actual discussion at hand.

[PukinDog]

Once I enter my aircraft, I have command and any unpolite clowns will be thrown off.

If those so-called "clowns" are law enforcement agents of the land you're in and you're under suspicion, lotsa luck with your "I'M in command here, I'm throwing you off!" plan.

[KTM300XC-W]

That's friggin hilarious! This person thinks they're Clint Eastwood. I'd love to see this false sense "command ship" play out in real life, I'm thinking they'd piss their pants and start weeping like a 2 year old that just lost his blanket.

[Band a Lot]

I got banned from Rumors and News section, for stating facts that Mod Captains don't like.

"Once I enter my aircraft, I have command and any unpolite clowns will be thrown off."


Often an incorrect statement - certainly is in this case. The Captain is in command in many countries once the aircraft is moving under its own power.

A few countries is once they enter the aircraft but then I am sure a law can be overriding that and am sure many guys with big guns will tell you, you have the right of appeal off the aircraft as you are dragged out in front of many more people than just those on the aircraft. Probably then having grounds for a mandatory D&A blood test only to find both - the string of charges 3 miles long and never to see outside jail again.

Yep me to love to see the I am In Command statement made.

I also think as posted this happened in Australia so Drug and Alcohol limits of Australia apply, also the D & A of the aircraft rego country will apply and any D & A crew licences in any and every country they hold. (the lowest level can be used in my opinion)

[bingofuel]

Command means you are responsible for the safety and lawful operation of the aircraft and flight. It does not make you Lord and Master despite what some 'Commanders ' think!

You can only operate within the Law, step outside that and you are on your own.

[Landflap]

Kapitan, the guy you mention should have sued for wrongful dismissal. Alcohol ban applies to a period before sign on. That is when you are on duty. You are not on duty on the way to sign on. You might be in uniform and you might be in a crew bus or your own transport. But, you are not on duty until you sign on. The ignorant & arrogant response of the employers saying "That is not how we interpret the rules" is astonishing. Rules are rules and are not open to interpretation.

[Monarch Man]

Landflap, just out of interest, have you ever worked for a ME airline? Do you honestly think that there is a snowballs chance in the Dubai summer that a wrongful dismissal case from a semi-govt entity who can operate with impunity, is going to EVER succeed?
Suspend your indignation and understand that the rule of law is applied in these countries in anyway is deemed best by those who write the laws.
Don't believe me? Just remember that in the ME, some are more equal than others.
I'm sure in a unionised airline in a semi civilised country like Australia that the case you are referring too may indeed have some merit, but the employer and employee aren't based there.
As to the Perth situation, 0 sympathy, we all know the rules, and many of us refrain from anything else than a quiet pint whilst down route for this very reason....he must have been steaming.

[Schnowzer]

Am I the only one that thinks it's pretty sad if you are trying to 'time' your zero reading?

[Eau de Boeing]

Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but the rumours I am hearing is that apparently he even passed the test, having repeated it a couple of times. Seems to get stranger the deeper you dig.

[White Knight]

Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but the rumours I am hearing is that apparently he even passed the test, having repeated it a couple of times. Seems to get stranger the deeper you dig.

As far as I'm aware a refusal is grounds for termination according to the OM-A; even if a test is subsequently passed a little later...

[Eau de Boeing]

I agree White Knight, however what I am hearing (and of course it is only pure speculation)is that it wasn't refused. If this is true then it's a worrying development.

[fatbus]

Asked to resign? He is leaving!

[Mr Good Cat]

Am I the only one that thinks it's pretty sad if you are trying to 'time' your zero reading?
I know where you're coming from Schnowzer and agree but at the same time it's not right if a test shows an individual fractionally over the limit at the hotel 2 hours before a sign-on.

Personally I'm too much of a lightweight to drink anything near the amount that would leave me close to limits prior to pick-up... I can't get a proper normal rest even after only a few pints the night before - messes with my sleep cycle.

[Mach_Krit]

I dont think the below paragraph out of the ERM allows for much interpretation...

2.1
The Company maintains a zero tolerance approach to the consumption of alcohol and drugs, and therefore employees should not be under the influence of alcohol or drugs while :

carrying out duties on behalf of the Company - on or off Company premises, during official breaks (including meal breaks), and on periods of standby subject to being called on duty

in uniform (on or off duty)

driving a Company vehicle (on or off duty)

[Tu.114]

I find the use of the word "should" in the above quote interesting. Surely, a firm rule would use the word "shall" instead?

[Talparc]

Odins Raven: all confirmed, unfortunately its true!

[BigGeordie]

I'm a bit late catching up with this but here I go...

According to the newspaper article the Captain was reported by the F/O. Looks like a major breakdown in CRM to me. I can think of much better ways of handling a potentially intoxicated crew member than ringing the company. I only hope the F/O tried to have a friendly chat first before picking up the phone.

[luvly jubbly]

I'm a bit late catching up with this but here I go...

According to the newspaper article the Captain was reported by the F/O. Looks like a major breakdown in CRM to me. I can think of much better ways of handling a potentially intoxicated crew member than ringing the company. I only hope the F/O tried to have a friendly chat first before picking up the phone.

Would be interesting to see make up of crew on 424/425. Is this 2 Capts & 1 FO now?

[donpizmeov]

2FOs and 1 Capt.

[OMAAbound]

Many moons back in my old company, we were downroute in Innsbruck, 7pm pickup it was- 7pm came and went, bus was here, crew all here, capt still missing. After an hour, Ops phoned, told us he'd been stopped in the lobby and blew 0.08

Turns out he'd used mouthwash, and was tested as he stepped out the elevator.

He was invited for tea and biscuits and now works in Sainsbury.

[Rule3]

Just about ruined my keyboard when I read your post.

There is only one rule in the UAE and that is the Golden Rule.

The man with the Gold makes the rule.

[pilotguy1222]

Mach cover this one, and I have read it myself. "Anytime you are in uniform".

I have been tested 3 times in roughly 5 years. The paper you sign states that YOU will select and open the mouth piece used for testing. I have yet to be allowed to select mine. The tester has a glove on that has handled who-knows how many other samples that day.
All 3 of my test were legally invalid, and I recorded the 3rd one just incase. I use mouthwash morning and night.

[ironbutt57]

to further your story Kaptluet...he blew ZERO at the airport, bringing into question the validity of the test at the hotel,,,but since it was a big-beard pushing the issue, out the door he went...straight-up guy, and a personal friend...

[Kapitanleutnant]

Iron...

Agree. He was a good guy and I enjoyed getting to know him back then. Lost touch with him....

K

[5star]

ok, can someone please enlighten us with some more FACTS in this case. I think it is 'highly unlikely' that you blow positive first, and then ZERO 1 hour later at the airport. Surely they ran a blood test, as would be normally required and that gave a final (bad) outcome...

Heard the story already some weeks back as it was a popular item on some sort of FO wattsapp group, but the version that went around then, was that the skipper could barely walk straight....

Would be interesting to hear the true story. I know, I shouldn't ask here, but we all know they are too busy with Destination PA's in the office.

[springbok449]

Why would it be highly unlikely to blow positive first and one hour later blow zero?
There has to be a point when you go from being positive to negative, it could even be 5 mins later otherwise you would always remain positive!

Granted if at the hotel you could barely walk it's unlikely you will read zero and the airport...

Where does the story in the press come from about the skipper refusing the test in the first place?

[fatbus]

Have they ever tested in the Perth hotel before? Any time that has occurred they have been tipped off and the entire crew is tested to make it look like it was random. Including an EK station staff. Generally tipped off by hotel staff.

[Landflap]

Rule 3 ; Just completed my external law degree & I am coming out to represent all you guys. Damn..........just ruined me own keyboard !