"Speed Restrictions"???

[Hippy]

Hi, I'm intersted to know, from aircrew in particular, what exactly is being asked when the question "Any speed restriction?" is posed during descent. I'm particularly interested in circumstances when the descent is being made outside Class A airspace, into Newcastle or Teeside, for example. What speed profile would you use if you recieved a "No restriction" reply while descending through FL240 towards Newcastle from POL?

I'm not after having a 'dig' at aircrew, I believe there may be some missunderstanding amongst controllers at our unit. ;)

Many Thanks,
Hippy.

[sky9]

250kts of course + any tailwinds.

[expedite_climb]

Outside of Class A there is a restriction of 250 below 10000. Controllers cannot lift this rule, as it is there to protect higher speed a/c from the puddlejumpers, who may be around in uncontrolled airspace.

Some aircrew think that ATC can lift this restriction in the same way they can in class a. It is commonplace for example to ask if there is 'any speed' going into LGW, where on a Willo STAR the plate says 250kts by GWC, so that a high speed from such a distance out can be maintained if approved.

[Hippy]

Okay, not much of a response but, taking our little sample, it would appear 100% of pilots are aware of the 250kt below FL100 limit and are also aware that ATC cannot lift it in open FIR.

Why then, do so many pilots ask? If no procedure speed limits are published, why ask if there are any speed restrictions? The only reasons for asking in my mind would be if speed control had previously been applied in Class A airspace and not removed, which is not the case in most instances, or, the pilot is seeking to remain in excess of 250kt IAS below FL100.

Again, if this is the case, I am not seeking to berate pilots for asking, but rather there appears to be little awareness of the 250kt limit amongst controllers at my unit, resulting in a "No speed restriction" reply in most cases. Before I take actions to remmedy this, I need to be sure that it is the 250kt/FL100 restriction that pilots are refering to when they ask.

Rgds,
Hippy.

[1261]

Don't forget that it's not just class A; ATC can remove the 250kts limit in most class B-D airspace as well (although notably NOT in class E, which many crews descending below 6000' in the Scottish TMA don't seem to realize!).....

[eyeinthesky]

My usual response to the question is along the lines of:

'The national speed limit in uncontrolled airspace is 250 kts below FL100. I cannot clear you to exceed that speed, and you do so at your discretion'.

It's a bit like road speed limits: If you break them and get caught then you have only yourself to blame.

Before anyone jumps in and tries to protect the puddlejumpers (such as me on occasion) who would not relish and A300 doing 300 kts across their nose (or worse), I would add that I am only asked this at night when there is b****r all else showing on the radar in that area.

[Hippy]

Good reply, Eye.

Would you therfore consider that a controller who replies "No speed restriction" is leaving himself open to blame if the aircraft should exceed the 250kt/FL100 limit?

Is he saying "I've got no requirement for you to maintain any special speed, bust the speed limit at your own risk."
or is he saying "You can fly at whatever speed you like and I've said you can exceed 250kts below FL100.", even though we are aware that he doesn't have that authority, but he might not be.

Are we accepting the assumtion that if a pilot enquires "Any speed restriction?", then he is refering to the 250kts/FL100 restriction, or, is he saying "Obviously I'm aware that I need to reduce to 250kts by FL100, but do you have any other restrictions for me before then?"

:confused:Are you with me :confused:

[Standard_Departure]

"No ATC speed restrictions"

This (IMHO) implies that ATC don't have any requirement for you to maintain any specific speed restriction for the purpose of sequencing (or anything else). Surely the 250/10k speed restrictions are regulations imposed by the regulator and/or Civil Authority and therefore the above RT does not release anyone from compliance.

[pom]

My employer has found it necessary to remind pilots operating in and out of Bristol that ATC has no authority to permit pilots to exceed 250kts below 10,000'. I believe that many pilots are not aware that ATC doesn't have this authority, and when they call inquiring about speed restrictions the 250 kts below 10 is the restriction they are referring to.

At the risk of muddying the water, I have noticed that in controlled airspace, after ATC allows a pilot to maintain high speed during the descent, he tends to maintain high speed all through the approach. It is my understanding that if a pilot has been given an ATC instruction ie "maintain heading ---", this instruction is cancelled on frequency change, unless the pilot is instructed to advise the new controller of the clearance. The same philosophy apples to an instruction to maintain high speed. Is my understanding correct, or am I about to be taught the error of my ways?

[Captain Stable]

Given that it is possibly highly dangerous for a large transport jet to exceed 250 below 10,000 outside controlled airspace, to protect them from the small stuff as well as vice versa, and given that ATC units can see a great deal of what is going on, should they be required to report those who infringe the limit, thus reducing safety margins for everybody who uses the "open FIR"? Should an MOR be filed if the offender is identified?

[Bern Oulli]

ATCO I may be, policeman I ain't. I'm not sure how I am going to decide that a particular a/c is "exceeding the speed limit". I can see a not particularly accurate ground speed readout on my radar (maybe), but it doesn't show me the 60kt tailwind that Met omitted from the TAF.

[eyeinthesky]

Pom: Your assumption with regard to a change of frequency cancelling a previous restriction is potentially a VERY dangerous one!!

Of course we are supposed to say: 'Report your heading/speed/cleared level (or whatever) to XXX' but sometimes we forget. In addition our manuals say that we can coordinate restrictions between controllers by phone, and you will of course not know this.

I would suggest that you should continue on the heading/speed etc and check with the next controller whether you are released.

As is the usual response to all these sort of questions: IF YOU ARE NOT SURE, ASK!

Hippy: Short answer to 'No speed restrictions' : your first option.

Yes, I would hope that all pilots who fly in any airspace are aware of the limitations and regulations pertaining to it. It is the same as knowing your own, the aircraft or the airfield minima for an approach and which applies in which case. Unfortunately, the cases to which I referred in my last post are often foreign pilots specifically asking for high speed clearance below FL100 in Class G. The response I mentioned in that post is usually met by a somewhat non-plussed: "Roger":rolleyes:

Standard Departure: Yes, spot on IMO.

[Hippy]

Thanks for your input, all. I have found the answer in AIC 35/1998 (Yellow 291) (http://www.ais.org.uk/Uk_aip/pdf/aic/4Y291.PDF).

3.5 Phraseology

Pilots should be aware that ATC use of the phrase 'No ATC Speed Restriction' does not absolve pilots from the responsibility to operate at speeds that would:

(d) comply with the airspace speed limit in Class E, F or G Airspace
So there we have it. Although it is there in black & white (or black & yellow, as the case may be), from Pom's reply and my own gut feeling, I still believe that crews may be refering to the 'Airspace Speed Limit' when the question is asked.

Hippy

[1261]

Personally I use the (albeit non-standard) phrase "speed at your discretion" if I don't require a particular speed.