Pay Scales

[BobDole]

I just noticed this on the group career website. Entry level 1 or 2?

Based on 85 block hours:

Captain: 42,695 AED per month (entry level 1)
Captain: 47,265 AED per month (entry level 2)
First Officer: 30,125 AED per month (entry level 1)
First Officer: 35,080 AED per month (entry level 2)

Employee Benefits | Explore our Careers | Emirates Group Careers Centre (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/english/careers_overview/pilot_jobs/emp_benefits.aspx)

[electricdeathjet]

They will be queuing up to come.....

Wonder who the target audience is, Qatar, Turkish, Oman Air, Gulf Air, Cathy.......?

[Saint]

So a new 'level 2' F/O who meets some unstated criteria gets paid 3000 AED per month more than a 4 year Emirates F/O who meets the upgrade criteria? They really know how to motivate the workforce.

[izu]

Hum.. No mention of company accommodation ?

[lostinspace89]

I think they actually lowered the salary for new entrants as the new salary says its 30k with hourly pay based on 85 hrs! Did they remove hourly pay? Can't find it anywhere anymore.

Housing allowance is listed in the FAQ section.

Requirements for scales:

a First Officer on our Boeing 777 and A380 fleets, you must meet these minimum requirements:

• 2000 hours flying an aircraft with a MTOW of 20 tonnes or more; OR
• 3000 hours flying an aircraft with a MTOW above 10 tonnes.
• ICAO English level 4 or above (or equivalent)
If you are currently type rated on B744, B777, B787 or A330/340/350/380 you may be entitled to an enhanced package. This is based on:

• 5000 hours flying an aircraft with a MTOW of 50 tonnes or more; of which
• 3000 hours are on B744, B777, B787 or A330/340/350/380 and;
• 500 hours were flown in the last 12 months before joining Emirates
• ICAO English level 5 or above (or equivalent)

[BobDole]

If someone were to resign, then re-apply, you could get a pay bump :}

The accommodation bit is under the FAQ's on the left side of the screen under the Pilots section.

[donpizmeov]

One of those chaps in the Pic works for QR. Bout right for this place. :)

[lostinspace89]

Plus a319/320 time doesn't seem to count as scale2?!? So now that counts the same as biz jet time to ek?

[PGA]

Check Pilot Jobs | Explore our Careers | Emirates Group Careers Centre (http://www.ekpilot.com)

They now pay more if you have an x amount of hours before joining

[SilverSeated]

So pay has increased and accommodation has dropped to DHS 159,840 pa for an FO and DHS 179,400 pa for a skipper!

Obviously the increase in pay far offsets the drop in accommodation allowance making it a bum deal for any long serving staff!

Is there something I'm missing here, something that would make it cost neutral!

[DCS99]

Check ESA under FAQs.
Not got my HRD running here but that definitely looks like a reduction to me.

Something strange is going on here.
Is this the CM effect?

[Xulu]

And all the A380 extra requirements are also gone. 2000hrs on a 20T aircraft, or 3000hrs on a 10T aircraft. Edit: No Airbus time required!

[flyinthesky]

Have I missed something? Because when you add up 12x the higher amount and throw in 160k for the accommodation allowance (as stated on the website) that gives an income of approx 48kAED per month for FO on band 2. That's a whole load more than I make now!!! Time to FO!!!!! What a bunch of f****n cretins. You just couldn't make this up.

[SilverSeated]

And the schooling has dropped to 60K for secondary...

Have heard that all contracts for pre existing employees are being brought into line with the advertised.

Hello Qatar my old friend, I've come to talk to you again.......:)

[flyinthesky]

And when might they bother communicating this enormously important missive to the existing troops?

Have to say, since the advent of the new DSVP, it seems that any Comms are on a need to know basis!

And the gimps wonder why people don't want to stay. Incredulous!!!

[777boyindubai]

And EK can't be sued for "contract adjustment" as being a semi-government entity, they are not subject to Labour Law in the UAE. Bonuses all-round for the Costa Dwellers. All this from CM and a lot more to come. I feel so sorry for my friends left there.

[fliion]

And the schooling has dropped to 60K for secondary...

Have heard that all contracts for pre existing employees are being brought into line with the advertised.

Hello Qatar my old friend, I've come to talk to you again.......:)

Really?

Source?

[lospilotos]

Really?

Source?

It says 40/60 in the FAQ section of the careers website. Probably just not updated for a while. It's 46/70 in my pay review from 2014.

[Spikedog]

It says 40/60 in the FAQ section of the careers website. Probably just not updated for a while. It's 46/70 in my pay review from 2014.


Pay Review 2014 makes Housing:

FO: 171,900
Capt: 192,900

Pay Review 2015 makes Education:

Primary School: 47,500
Secondary School: 72,500

[fliion]

Los

Spike is correct.

My 'Source?' reference WIRT:

"And the schooling has dropped to 60K for secondary...

Have heard that all contracts for pre existing employees are being brought into line with the advertised."

I call BS

[lospilotos]

Los

Spike is correct.

My 'Source?' reference WIRT:

"And the schooling has dropped to 60K for secondary...

Have heard that all contracts for pre existing employees are being brought into line with the advertised."

I call BS

Yeah, I forgot ESA was adjusted in 2015 as well.

[donpizmeov]

Employee handbook is the source. It shows the recruiting site hasn't been updated.

[X-BleedOpen]

Guys JA cancelled the FleetForums because of a new enhanced package that he wanted to present to us... so don't worry, this is all false...

(Read also my sarcastic and sad tone...).

[CTWO]

If "pay review 2014 by AS is still standing the figures on web site are wrong:
Accomodation:
FD 06. 14325 per month ( previously 13320,as reported on web site)
FD 07. 16075 per month ( previously 14950, as reported...)

ESA
primary 46000 ( previously 42K)
secondary 70000 (previously 63k)

As for the salary it lt would appear they introduced a "f*****g" level 2 which would locate new joiners on a pay scale higher then a 6/7 years senior captain/fo without "certain" wide body
experience (what about md11,76?)

[CTWO]

not correct..with pay review june 2016
Fo 55 aed per hour
CAP 75 aed per hour

the base change with seniority and year of joining....

[fliion]

The 2014 Housing is correct

14325/16075

The Edu went up in 2015
47500/72500

The level 1/2 number is inclusive of 85 hrs flying pay @ 55/75 = 4675/6375 so base would be

Level 1 Capt
36320
Level 2 Capt
40890

Level 1 FO
25450
Level 2 FO
30405

But if reduced schooling and housing is correct, then a new FO/Capt would be worse off on those two points by (based on two kids in high school, living out) of;

FO 37060pa

and

CAPT 38500pa

Clear as mud?

The shenanigans continues
ps 'above twas a quick back of envelope - open to correction

[CTWO]

my bad..i missed the ESA raise in 2015
85 hrs 4675/6375

..i say again..a 6/7 years capt/fo already in the company would get less then a new joiner level 2..

[kingpost]

These are the A+ scales to try and attract guys who have no kids or the kids have finished school. Just think about it, as soon as ones the kids have finished school, your package gets reduced quite substantially!

[fliion]

Can anyone provide the most recent base for new hire FO/CAPT monthly pay before these new scales were advertized.

That would give a clearer picture.

[lostinspace89]

Base pay before was circa 29000 dhs, so for a new FO on level 1 we're talking about a circa 4000 dhs decrease per month in base pay and 10,000 dhs decrease per year in housing....

Does this mean even current new joiners will have to fall under this salary decrease. 4000 dhs decrease per month is pretty sad, that makes about 48,000 dhs less per year.

[Turbokite]

Maybe they are reacting to the recent QR roadshow in Dubai. The point they are missing is QR is attracting new joiners because of improved work schedules. I have a few friends in Goat airline and they confirm the 777 schedules are pretty decent with plenty of days off. Apparently they have even introduced a new rule, where flight deck have to get a string of four days OFF at least once per monthly roster.

[ruserious]

So, am I correct you get paid less if your Engrish speaking is not as good ;)

[Tricia Takanawa]

Do the level 2 hour requirements match any upgrade requirements? Wondering if they are recruiting experienced FO's for a fast upgrade, especially considering the fairly low normal requirements for a wide body position.

Being only 200 hours short, and the £/AED exchange rate at the moment, this is getting quite tempting, so long as the housing and education are at the current level. Throw in an accelerated shot at command, and I might just apply.

PS. Don't believe everything you hear about the rosters at QR. I have a lot of friends there, and their rosters look brutal. Granted they get 4 days off in a row, but still only manage 8-10 for the month on average. (Boeing fleets)

[bigdaviet]

There's no shortage of experienced FOs at EK right now

[Mr Good Cat]

Being only 200 hours short, and the £/AED exchange rate at the moment, this is getting quite tempting, so long as the housing and education are at the current level. Throw in an accelerated shot at command, and I might just apply.

Where are you working at the moment. Don't buy yourself a one-way ticket out of the UK. You'd never get back once Brexit is triggered. A lot of guys are on the way back and opportunities will be few and far between - especially if the worst happens with Monarch this week :-(

[donpizmeov]

Common Good cat. You will never keep a Brit away from the sun and sand....and there is sooo much sand....and sun...did I mention the sand? :)

[Rigid Body]

Over the last two/three years that I've had occasion to review the EK careers web site, there's been NO change except for the advertised pay and experience requirements. Only the "minimum experience requirements" and the "cash elements" have been reviewed. I don't think the FAQ section is a reflection of the package being offered--its outdated

[Flyboy_SG]

" We review our salaries regularly to make sure we remain competitive. "

The funniest part...once in almost 10 years...

[Flyboy_SG]

77FB, as the matter of fact you can't sue any ME3,I believe. as the law is unilateral and biased in the desert. Correct me if im wrong.

[777boyindubai]

" We review our salaries regularly to make sure we remain competitive. "

Flyboy, the bit they leave out is competitive with the lowest possible amount we can get away with and pilots can never earn what DSVP Catering can earn.....

Keep on rowing.....

[Flyboy_SG]

That is a sad fact . And a 5 year bond for Type rated and experienced guys, atrocious. They know that people would want to leave in no time. I wonder who wants to join them with these T&C.

[ExDubai]

That is a sad fact . And a 5 year bond for Type rated and experienced guys, atrocious. They know that people would want to leave in no time. I wonder who wants to join them with these T&C.
Enough people with widebody fever available. If not, lower the requirements.

[north flyer]

I was hired in June of 2008, I am in my 9th year.

I am an F/O by choice, my base pay is 30,405 AED and flight pay is 55 AED an hour, that equals 35,080 AED per month.

Emirates is willing to paying 9th year F/O salary for a level 2 F/O, not a bad deal, wish they had that when I joined, not sure about the year of captain pay, but I would guess it is about the same.

But here is the problem as I see it, for the F/O's who are looking at this, Emirates needs "baby sitters" and please don't get me wrong, Emirates pilots are some of the best I have flown with in just over 40 years of flying and 32 years with different airlines, not sure who wants the "level 2", maybe it is the insurance companies or just knee jerk stuff, but you will be coming here to sit next to captains that are "level 1" in the eyes of the powers in charge, and you most likely be there for a long, long time.

Emirates is not going to grow, just look at what is going on in the "real" world, and what CM is best at, this is aviation, things change, there are is no such thing as how many years to "command".

So with all that said, if I were a young guy looking to be a captain in a few years, be careful, but, if you are a DEC or a old F/O looking for a job and do not care about upgrade, this is as good as it gets in the ME.

[CTWO]

I was hired in June of 2008, I am in my 9th year.

I am an F/O by choice, my base pay is 30,405 AED and flight pay is 55 AED an hour, that equals 35,080 AED per month.

Emirates is willing to paying 9th year F/O salary for a level 2 F/O, not a bad deal, wish they had that when I joined, not sure about the year of captain pay, but I would guess it is about the same.

But here is the problem as I see it, for the F/O's who are looking at this, Emirates needs "baby sitters" and please don't get me wrong, Emirates pilots are some of the best I have flown with in just over 40 years of flying and 32 years with different airlines, not sure who wants the "level 2", maybe it is the insurance companies or just knee jerk stuff, but you will be coming here to sit next to captains that are "level 1" in the eyes of the powers in charge, and you most likely be there for a long, long time.

Emirates is not going to grow, just look at what is going on in the "real" world, and what CM is bes at, this is aviation, things change, there are is no such thing as how many years to "command".

So with all that said, if I were a young guy looking to be a captain in a few years, be careful, but, if you a DEC or a old F/O looking for a job and do not care about upgrade, this is as good as it gets in the ME.
spot on,north flyer

we used to have 1 salary scale: you get hired you are on step 1, when you are upgraded you jump 10 steps (suppose after 4 yrs = you go step 14). DEC get hired step 13 to start with.. we used to have 22 step increment for captain (step 14 to 35) and 13 for FOs(FO cannot go higher then step 13)...this new "thing" change the prospective...wonder if a new hired FO is aware that if he does not upgrade in 4yrs (very unlikely) he will be shafted....hello tomorrow

[lostinspace89]

But I guess the deal for a Type 1 FO is significantly lower than previous...not much a good deal anymore, or maybe never was?

[lospilotos]

Dirhams stay in Dubai! Depending on your circumstances (sounds like you have kids), you won't be sending much home anyway.

Fast command? I think there are plenty of FO ready for upgrade. Summer 2011 joiners currently upgrading. I know 2012 joiners who have been told 30 months (7 years to upgrade). There is no expansion and close 2,000 FO ahead of you. Wheres does your upgrade come from?

Late Sep-11 joiners already finished upgrade...

[lospilotos]

Base pay before was circa 29000 dhs, so for a new FO on level 1 we're talking about a circa 4000 dhs decrease per month in base pay and 10,000 dhs decrease per year in housing....

Does this mean even current new joiners will have to fall under this salary decrease. 4000 dhs decrease per month is pretty sad, that makes about 48,000 dhs less per year.

No, there has been no decrease in "Level1", entry level basic pay was and still is circa 25400.

[Desert Camel]

I find the whole thing absolutely disgusting.... why, after a few years in the company, should I be paid less than a level 2, or whatever the name is, new joiner?
Another slap in the face! Hello tomorrow, hell today. Keep discovering.

[Xiamen]

As a direct entry Captain on our Boeing 777 fleet you must meet these minimum requirements:

• 7000 hours total flying time
• 3000 hours command time on multi-crew, multi-engine commercial jet aircraft with a MTOW of 50 tonnes or more
• Currently type-rated as a commander on an aircraft such as B737 (or larger)
• Flown at least 150 hours in command in the 12 months before joining Emirates
• ICAO English level 5 or above (or equivalent)
• At least 1000 hours of wide body aircraft and long haul experience in the last 3 years
If your experience as a Captain exceeds our minimum requirements, you may be entitled to an enhanced package. This is based on:

• 7000 hours command time flying an aircraft with a MTOW of 50 tonnes or more; of which
• 4000 hours are on B744, B777 or B787 and;
• Currently type-rated as a commander on an aircraft such as B737 (or larger)
• 500 hours were flown in the last 12 months before joining Emirates
• ICAO English level 6 (or equivalent)

This is a no go for the loco pilots in the world. I've read about DEC from Ryan, Wizz, etc, but there is a requirement for wide body experience that few loco drivers have.
Am I missing something?

Who are they targeting?

[ExDubai]

This is a no go for the loco pilots in the world. I've read about DEC from Ryan, Wizz, etc, but there is a requirement for wide body experience that few loco drivers have.
Am I missing something?

Who are they targeting?

Maybe retired LH skippers.... :confused:

[Xiamen]

Well, yes, but those would be wide body captains.
I don't understand the narrow body focus. How many 737 drivers are there with 1000 hrs wide body time?

[Kernow 101]

Year after year no more than step increase.......then this??? Insulting.....

Unless they match this 'Level 2 salary' to the experienced FO's / Capts already here who match this criteria..........unlikely

[donpizmeov]

Is this any different to junior Boeing FOs, getting promoted before and getting better T&Cs than than the more senior Bus FOs?

Same same but different.

Advertising for these level two dudes, and actually having them apply, pass the recruitment stuff and get hired will be two very different things me thinks.

[WB1900]

LEVEL 2 FO, opens the door for DEFO with rapid command, to shaft the FO again.

[WB1900]

LEVEL 2 COM : is excactly the profile for ex Air France, Swiss, LH who have to stop working with 60years of age. they get another fett 5 years. - and the advantage is you will find some shafted FO again - isnt that cool

[Luibar]

This is a no go for the loco pilots in the world. I've read about DEC from Ryan, Wizz, etc, but there is a requirement for wide body experience that few loco drivers have.
Am I missing something?

Who are they targeting?

Or maybe they don't even know... :confused:

[Odins Raven]

LEVEL 2 COM : is excactly the profile for ex Air France, Swiss, LH who have to stop working with 60years of age. they get another fett 5 years. - and the advantage is you will find some shafted FO again - isnt that cool

If I was a retiring widebody skipper from any of those flag carriers, the only reason I would be going to work in Dubai would be if my pension income was being raided by a few much-younger ex-wives.

Maybe they should introduce a 3rd divorce as a requirement for Level 2 DEC.

[BYMONEK]

OR

Well, considering there were a few ex BA guys working for Monarch/First Choice and a few other UK charters in the past, when retirement was at 55, I don't see what's so unusual to come here for a few years.

Especially if they're from the UK, with the current exchange rate they'd be clearing over double what you're taking home at JET 2 right now....even without the accommodation allowance. Still, if those outfits are really as good as everyone's always claiming, why bother anyway.....not matter how many ex wives. More money you earn, the more they get.

[sluggums]

Just got an email from our 'enry, more half baked attempts...

[Cloud Bunny]

Yeah, seems he only sent through half of the email. He forgot the bit where it mentions that those who meet the requirements currently in the company will have their salaries bought in line with the new improved conditions.
I'm sure he'll realize his error and send through the completed version later today. After all the people that are working to enable this company to continue their expansion come first and will be rewarded accordingly.....Right?

[Mango]

Just got an email from our 'enry, more half baked attempts...

Wouldn't it be better if you tried to attract the people you already have from not leaving before attracting people you don't have from coming to replace all the people who left???

[Spoogie]

Guys....was it my inbox that was not working properly?:= I only received half the email! Where is the pay increase paragraph?:ugh:

[Bluffontheriver123]

Mango, very true. HD went down the plughole as far as I am concerned when he appeared in that ridiculously amateurish video after the crash. It showed his true colours, clueless just hoping the craic will get him to the top.

Retention always beats recruitment! Without it, who wants to join?

[Craggenmore]

Mango!!!!!!!

Exactly....Where's the bit about increasing our pay for staying put..?

I'm running low on champs��

[gardenshed]

What in Gods good earth are they smoking up there in the Bouncy Castle !!!
Our 'enry sends out an email saying along the lines of, due to our total incompetence and mismanagement we have lost too many pilots. So to rectify the situation we are going to offer to a select few newbies an enhanced package.

Here is breaking news how about treating your existing staff better in the first place, giving us all the pay rises we are long overdue, reducing our hours so that we may "have a life" this shouldn't be to difficult now flights are being canned and aircraft parked up.

I cannot seriously believe that some senior management type thought this wheeze up as a good idea, even a five year old could tell you the inevitable outcome, for the dozen or so you attract, will be out weighed by the many who will continue to vote with their feet out the door. :ugh::mad:

[ExDubai]

Mango!!!!!!!

Exactly....Where's the bit about increasing our pay for staying put..?

I'm running low on champs��
Argh... come on, that would be the easy way.....

[fliion]

So finally Comms from above!

How refreshing.

So From the man who's new mantra on introduction was:
"This will be the era of open Comms":

No more Fleet Forums, no weekly operational updates, no monthly training newsletters, no RGTS wash-ups, no emails from Fleet discussing 334 downgrades, age restricted upgrades. In fact no emails from Fleet on anything other than Forth Worth!..Yada. Yada. Yada.

Just an email telling us that the people who have never actually done the 100hr rosters, the rejected leave, the reduced swapping, the lack of five days off, the 24h ULRs, the sub inflation 3% ........

Actually deserve more than us.

Now this is a display of mgt in all its expertize and glory.

YOU CANNOT GET PILOTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT INVESTED IN YOUR PILOTS!

And to anyone thinking of coming you will be on this side when the same email comes out next year upping the ante on what you got this year and then hey presto ...you will be pissed off like everyone else.

Brilliant 'enrietta...brilliant

[Kempus]

Well I hope they get plenty of applicants who are successful.
I can then apply to the airlines they come from as they will then be short of experienced drivers and I can go there on an enhanced package.

Or

Meeting the requirements of the enhanced package at the moment I, resign, apply back during my notice period as to be fair HR/fleet/Ops seem to have no clue what is going on, hopefully get in(not 100% sure about that one), move back into Cedre, jump the upgrade queue of those that joined a couple of months before me and all is good.

Almost sounds to good to be true. No idea what everyone is moaning about.

[Monarch Man]

The Jerusalem domiciled carpenter leaked fluid from his eyes :ugh:

There will be VERY few who will look at this predominately due to the fact that where they are now allows work till 65, so why head out to the sand to be flogged 100hrs a month for an hourly rate that's less now than most first world legacy operators? All that being said, I'm glad I haven't done a "Dallas Fort Worth" in a while.

[Shaky Hands]

Our 'enry clearly has no grasp of what is going on.
The first communication in months from he who promised better communication between fleet and pilots is to insult the pilots who are actually already here, working maximum hours, compressed rosters, only achieving min legal leave and a swap system which is about as useful as a cat flap at a rhinos house and for what to tell us that they've screwed up so badly we need to offer more to get pilots to leave their current A380/777 job, whoever they get shouldn't be certified mentally fit to fly anyway.
First and foremost, stop the rot, retain the pilots you have and get your house in order, then you wouldn't have to beg people to join.
A 0.5% payrise in 5 years and a DEC goes straight in on a higher scale-get a grip! Just when you think we at the bottom, we sink a bit lower....

[EKB777]

gardenshed/fliion, spot on!

This whole thing is laughable.:confused:

[ruserious]

I just wonder if this brilliant idea has come from one level above, it is the classic knee jerk simplistic crap that he has been trotting out for the last 10 years, much to our and the airline's detriment

[halas]

The email did say they were "just fishing".

Maybe, just maybe, they are now waiting for responses to the email from the troops to give them feed back on this new idea, to see what to do next. Because l think they have no clue what is going on right in front of their eyes. Except for the fact that it's just not Dallas!

halas

[maurondi]

Sorry guys,

I keep reading references being made about Dallas..
what did I miss thereabouts

[CamelRustler]

I think right about now someone is going, "Why did we let MK and MT leave?" The fact that EK no longer valued these two very fine gentlemen enough to listen to them shows the level of incompetence from above. Someone thought. "Pilot recruiting, how hard can it be when 100's of pilots are dying to come here?" Well you guys really screwed the pooch on this one and now training and everyone else is gonna pay for this mess. Frankly, it may be unrecoverable.

Fliion- Spot on!!

[777boyindubai]

That means loss of face or loss of experienced pilots. Knowing these grade A €£¥holes, which one of these options do you think they will go for?

[homoeconomicus]

QUOTE "Emirates pilots are some of the best I have flown with in just over 40 years of flying and 32 years with different airlines,".quote

The word pilot should be permanently replaced with aircraft operator. I don't see many good pilots at emirates :-) sorry

[WB1900]

SWAP request


SWAP my 100+ hours a month against job at decesent airline


Damm i forgot swap rule 3589: too many inteligent poeple

[Buckshot16]

Am I correct ?
A Entry Level 2 DEC will be paid as a year 4 Captain ? i.e. Basic Salary 40,890

Based on 85 block hours each month, these are our basic salaries together with hourly flying pay:
( How did I get that : 47,265 - [85hrs x 75= 6375] = 40,890 ).
Oh, plus 200 for Telephone Allowance = 47,465.
What is the 1 year Captain Basic Salary now ?

[Spikedog]

Sorry guys,

I keep reading references being made about Dallas..
what did I miss thereabouts



We received an email today from the DCPB asking us to use "Dallas-Fort Worth" instead of just "Dallas" on the PA when operating there.

We had better start saying "Hazrat Shahjalal" instead of just "Dhaka" next time we're flying there.

[fatbus]

They are now saying it was a mistake to take inexperienced FO's. Should have raised everyone's pay , made the place attractive. They have gone the wrong way with many things. Probably the 3 ranked in the ME3. We are now getting the EY/QR rejects instead of the other way around.

[JAYTO]

... so what do they do instead. Raise the salary for new joiners only..... hahahahahahah
Friggin joke.

J

[felixthecat]

Leave the salaries alone, thats not the problem! When your having a retention and recruitment problem, first stop the rot.

Stop the guys leaving, that solves half your recruitment problem at a stroke...Then you don't have to create a devision amongst the pilots with pay and cause more guys to feel of little value and leave.

Stop the rot and make this a place that people want to stay in and once again you will have EXPERIENCED guys wanting to join and at the current rates.

The race to the bottom only leads to one place....the bottom.

10 years ago we had plenty of time off, rested pilots, happy families and no retention or recruitment problem. Its not rocket science, treat people well they will give you their best and more. Treat them badly and the ivory towers of Costa will eventually crumble.

[The Zohan]

And the full official name of Bangkok is:

'Krungthep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahintara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Popnopparat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amonpiman Avatansathit Sakkathattiya Visnukamprasit'

tz

[nolimitholdem]

Man, these new packages are so good I'm tempted to apply and come back.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Vote with your feet. I would say "that is the only thing they understand", but apparently even the exodus is completely beyond their comprehension.

[Gillegan]

Leave the salaries alone, thats not the problem! When your having a retention and recruitment problem, first stop the rot.

Stop the guys leaving, that solves half your recruitment problem at a stroke...Then you don't have to create a devision amongst the pilots with pay and cause more guys to feel of little value and leave.

Stop the rot and make this a place that people want to stay in and once again you will have EXPERIENCED guys wanting to join and at the current rates.

The race to the bottom only leads to one place....the bottom.

10 years ago we had plenty of time off, rested pilots, happy families and no retention or recruitment problem. Its not rocket science, treat people well they will give you their best and more. Treat them badly and the ivory towers of Costa will eventually crumble.

While I agree with much of your sentiment, I'm going to have to call B.S. on the last paragraph. The rot started much more than 10 years ago. There is absolutely nothing that is being done now that doesn't have its roots in past practice.

Shortly after the Gulf Air crash, hour requirements for command were increased, guys were taken off of command courses and plans were made to downgrade a number of captains. (While they did mitigate some of the knee-jerk response after impassioned entreaties to Sir Maurice (PBUH), upgrade requirements were still increased and many were removed from their upgrade courses).

The DEC debacle of 2004 (?). DEC's with zero Widebody and/or international experience were brought in at higher pay rates than the pilots who were training them.

The great "cost-neutral" pay adjustment. (Don't remember the actual year). Cost neutral meant about a 15% pay cut for me.

I could go on but I think you get the point. The common thread to all of this has the initials STC. They got "better" at it once AAR was brought in. The point is that the rot has been there for a LONG time and NO ONE should be surprised at what is going on now.

[glofish]

Gillegan

I agree 100%. It seems to be the fate of many companies or personalities, that when blessed with a stellar rise and success, they succumb to the assumption, that this was only due to their own superior skills. That other factors might have helped, like being at the right place at the right time, having had some precious help from motivated co-warriors, mistakes from competitors (!!!) or just pure luck, is simply discarded.
This is called arrogance (definition: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions) and it makes people blind to their own mistakes. For them, any setback must be of foreign making or of a mean conspiracy.

This arrogance has taken down many companies and associations. Recently it's FIFA, Samsung and VW, where in all cases the experts talk of a rotten company culture. Look how hard it is for these companies to change, but without getting rid of the heads, it never succeeds.

For a company in the ME, with its Islamic background, it will be nearly impossible to go down that road. What history would demand, is not only the resignation of the most direct culprit at the front (AAR), which could mean a slight improvement but no change in company culture, but the departure of STC and even HHSA. The amount of employee mismanagement and wrong strategic fleet and expansion decisions can not have been missed by him, thus he is part of the arrogance that put EK on the slide.
This is, and that is my guess, not possible. Even if HHSM realises the abyss and the reason for it, he is just as much part of the local culture and unable to change it.

EK will shrink to the irrelevance of Gulf Air and most probably be replaced by Qatar, which will eventually fall in the same trap in a few years. After all they are all ME companies, led by locals.

[TangoUniform]

Back to the pay scales. Guys, you've missed the plot. We have proven that those who remain will do so at a subpar wage and will take the hourly abuse. But to attract newbies, there has to be something enticing, given the new deserved reputation of EK amongst pilots worldwide. By this I mean, those that are here, if you don't like it leave. We'll replace you with some wide eyed impressionable new pilots. To them the word loyalty is just a word that comes after laughable in the dictionary.

[kingpost]

This my dear colleagues, this where we change over from a career airline to a contract airline.......maybe it happened sooner, but this is a distinctive yardstick!!!

[muncen]

Dear colleagues, this satin business conduct has been going around in some other airlines in the gulf area as well, where junior first officers being contracted for salaries similar to the senior captains. The airline is a business and as long as people passive we will see more degradation to our profession.

They are braver than us, not for doing this, but for doing it during the start of pilots market shortage globally. Yes we became expendables, they will eat off our muscles and throw us out when the bones start to show. They will cover the lack of experience of newly appointed f/o by flying them with experienced captains, which means the captain will be underpaid, and overworked. Why? they will lower their recruitment standards for the ab initio? to compensate for the the market pilots shortage and their expansion plan.

Over my 30 years of flying, i have never seen worse job years than the past 10 years, locked up in the 2x2m cockpit(since 911 actually), no life outside, no time for family(if there is family left), and health issues started to boil(with a cheap medical insurance). I'm getting out this year to have to save whats left from my health. Health is very important, and when you do jetlags and bad sleep pattern for mor than 10 years, you asking for trouble.

Airline pilots should take a good look at their sacrifices and weigh that against the peanuts, also new comers should think twice before joining, its a trap , i totally regret choosing flying as my career, and never let any of my kids to become a pilot.