Helideck aiming (TD/PM) circles

[212man]

I see CHC have modified their line training when it comes to how to land on helidecks...:ugh:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/S92ctc/Aiming%20circle.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/S92ctc/media/Aiming%20circle.jpg.html)

As a reminder:Touchdown/Positioning Marking Circle. Described as the Aiming Circle in earlier editions of CAP 437, the TD/PM Circle is the aiming point for a normal touchdown (landing) so located that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking, the whole of the undercarriage will be within the landing area and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any
obstacles by a safe margin.

Note: It should be noted that only correct positioning over the TD/PM
Circle will ensure proper clearance with respect to physical
obstacles and provision of ground effect and provision of
adequate passenger access/egress

[Variable Load]

Exactly what I thought when I saw the photograph.

Must have been an ex-EC225 pilot :E

[SARBlade]

Not that I'm anywhere near the greatest at landing on a deck but I fail to see how one photo taken in time constitutes a normal practice of the entire CHC compliment of pilots. Really I think the purpose of your post was simple to stir the pot. I feel confident saying that you are indeed the best pilot out there and have never landed in outside the circle. Bravo, and kudos to you sir! :ok:

[megan]

f5dMqHqC4pM

9 inches?

No knowledge of what you guys require, but it seems none of the items in the Note have been transgressed, and he/she is certainly clear of obstacles.

Perhaps the following discussion is taking place in the cockpit. Captain to copilot, who has just flown his/her first approach in a 92 to an offshore platform, "Son/Lass, you need to land further forward in the circle, else 212man is going to chew your ass".

[tistisnot]

212man,

Tut, tut ....... to ensure clearance from obstacles but durrrrr - his/her tail is in the obstacle FREE sector!!!

[212man]

....so located that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking....

9 inches?

No knowledge of what you guys require, but it seems none of the items in the Note have been transgressed,

So, looking at the H as a reference distance, it's about 12 ft short, not 9 inches!

Not that I'm anywhere near the greatest at landing on a deck but I fail to see how one photo taken in time constitutes a normal practice of the entire CHC compliment of pilots. Really I think the purpose of your post was simple to stir the pot. I feel confident saying that you are indeed the best pilot out there and have never landed in outside the circle. Bravo, and kudos to you sir!

Slight stirring intended - yes - although I would have posted regardless of operator, and maybe been even unkinder if it was my previous employer! No, I am not the best pilot out there, but do/did try and maintain a consistent standard.

[212man]

"Son/Lass, you need to land further forward in the circle, else 212man is going to chew your ass".

No, next time you may not be pointing in the same direction, it may be dark and your tail rotor may be chewing a crane!

[tistisnot]

212man,

Sorry but these are remarks from a retired or office-bound pilot ...... if the crane was there he would have hit it on approach BEFORE landing ....... the CAP437 notes are for ensuring clearance if manoeuvring on the helideck. I bet at night this pilot would have landed out of wind / at right angles to the chevron to ensure his tail clearance, and allow passengers direct egress to the exit where the cameraman is stood ....... and if the wind was too strong would have used his initiative to employ your technique if required

[megan]

You may have your SOP 212man and have your standards/aviation adviser hat on, but I think given the deck layout you are being a tad anal on this particular occasion, with all due respect. Absolutely nothing unsafe in the aircrafts positioning on this particular occasion, the only obstructions I can see is the superstructure inboard, and I wouldn't be landing with my tail pointing in that direction in any event.

7N3YAIVyKeQ#t=19

[212man]

if the crane was there he would have hit it on approach BEFORE landing ....... the CAP437 notes are for ensuring clearance if manoeuvring on the helideck.

Yes, I know what the markings are for - thanks. But how many pilots are aware of how small the margins are when manoeuvring over the deck?

You may have your SOP 212man
your technique

Err no, not MY SOP/Technique at all!

Sorry but these are remarks from a retired or office-bound pilot

Which has a bearing on what, exactly?

[megan]

so located that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking, the whole of the undercarriage will be within the landing area and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any obstacles by a safe margin.Definition: Landing Area: A generic term referring to the load-bearing area primarily intended for the landing and take-off of aircraft. The area, sometimes referred to as the Final Approach and Take-Off area (FATO), is bounded by the perimeter line and perimeter lighting.

Think the guy/gal achieved all that, U/C is within the landing area. :E Poor wording of the quote, or the definition of "landing area", a bush lawyer could have a field day. ;) Imagine the result if the U/C wasn't within the landing area, as per the definition of same.

[Shell Management]

Time to use HFDM to monitor accuracy of deck positioning or perhaps get the HLOs to score each landing like they do on aircraft carriers.

[1FD2]

Surprised at some of the responses here.

ICAO Annex 14 - Volume 2

5.2.9.1 A touchdown/positioning marking shall be provided where it is necessary for a helicopter to touch down or be accurately placed in a specific position.

5.2.9.2 A touchdown/positioning marking shall be located so that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking, the undercarriage will be inside the load-bearing area, and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any obstacle by a safe margin.

The only time that the safety of the helicopter can be guaranteed is when the pilot is positioned correctly on the TD/PM. For those who wish to make their own assessment of obstacle clearance, read the Brent Spar accident report (G-BEWL) & the human factor issues therein

[tistisnot]

And there lies a problem of HFDM ...... mobile vessels / rigs are not fixed landing runways - the deck heading is not known by the system at the time!!? Shelly you know that?!

[Shell Management]

I also know Mariner B is a fixed installation.;)

But in the case of floaters the HLO could just hit a button (1 to 10 or red, amber or green) to grade the landing and that could be set up to send an e-mail to the Chief Pilot, OIM/Master and of course the company aviation advisor.:)

Such real time compliance monitoring would certainly improve standards.:ok:

[albatross]

Put yer ass over the yellow line ..
Most short landings occur because pilots focus on the H instead of the opposite (upwind) edge of the helideck.
Just my humble opinion.

[megan]

I also know Mariner B is a fixed installationSo there is, but in this case it is the ship. You need to get out more. ;)

XLW4--VB5PM#t=20

[Peter PanPan]

212man: you'd be amazed to see how many line training captains and senior captains have absolutely no clue about this - in my experience though, and in fairness, those were mostly GOM pilots. One LTC told me with a dead serious face that I should trust him, because he had been involved in helideck certification and CAP437 supported his view - bit of Kafka moment there really. You'd be more forgiving with those who have never heard about CAP437, than those who pretend to know the content and yet have absolutely no idea of what it recommends.

[Geoffersincornwall]

We are once again in danger of being a trifle EURO/US - centric in our views. Anyone who has lived offshore with their machine for any length of time will tell you that the key thing about deck markings is to understand why they are there and how to use them when you need to know how much room you have to play with when manoeuvring on the deck.

I have observed that there are many who operate safely without the slightest idea what that yellow/white aiming circle means. Sad but true because that lack of knowledge may one day cost you dear.

When operating a machine on a minimum sized deck for that size of helicopter the pilot can only be sure he can move the tail into the 150 deg. obstacle sector safely if his bum is kept over the aiming circle whilst keeping the centreline of the helicopter through the centre of the circle. Why would he want to do that? If you have to ask that question you have lived a sheltered life or not been in the business long enough. ;-)

Outside Europe/US there are parts of the world where they have no idea what you are talking about when you ask them how to use the deck markings correctly.

Having said all that those that operate to/from decks built for larger types are not really involved in the same debate but it still helps to know why the circle is there and how to use it when you need to.

G.

[megan]

Outside Europe/US there are parts of the world where they have no idea what you are talking about when you ask them how to use the deck markings correctly.Hand up to that until this thread came along. Long retired, but we seemed to operate OK by being cognisant of the layout of the platforms (someone mention airmanship?). Same as if you were operating into a restricted area. If someone broke down, the aircraft was positioned on the very edge of the perimeter, and the rescue landed alongside, with the "H" twix the two aircraft. I know some of you are going to cringe, but it had the full approval from the highest of the high. Times do change but.

[Captain Catastrophy]

I'll stand by 212 man with this - if the deck is marked correctly it is the safest simplest thing to do to follow the guidelines. 'I know best' sadly is the last word in a lot of accidents. it doesn't matter whose SOPS they are you divert from them at your peril - east or west.............

[check]

212 has a point, if the helicopter turned 90° to the left and maintained the deck position in relation to the aiming circle, the tail would be compromised in the 150° sector. By landing correctly each time it becomes second nature especially at night with a side on landing with the tail towards the 150° sector.

The H is an important indicator as it is set up to indicate the 150° sector, plus there is no excuse not to know the landing details as all rigs/vessels certainly in Europe have drawings and mobiles give wind and ships heading so the crew are fully aware of their landing direction in relation to obstacles.

That said I introduced an Helideck test into a training exercise and it was met with blank stares so the lack of knowledge regarding helidecks is I believe widespread. The fault lies both with the pilot, for the information is available, and the training departments for not ensuring all crews are familiar with the deck markings.

[GKaplan]

if the helicopter turned 90° to the left and maintained the deck position in relation to the aiming circle, the tail would be compromised in the 150° sector

The fault lies both with the pilot, for the information is available, and the training departments for not ensuring all crews are familiar with the deck markings.
So you just assume they're ignorant, don't you?

Didn't it occurre to any of the hair-splitting deck-positioning regulation-quoting gurus here that it was just a case of being a bit short initially but that having touched the main gear wheels in what is (given the conditions at the time) a safe position the pilot just preferred to let the nose wheel down and stay there rather than bringing it back up in the hover and pushing forward a bit.
A case of "well, not great, but I'll do better next time".


Yes the position is not ideal, but it's still safe and don't start all the BS about "IF there is a crane", or "IF it's night", or "IF it does a sudden 90° pedal turn", because you know what? IF anything had been different I'm sure the pilot would have been taking it into account and been much closer to the ideal position!

2 pages thread for that! Geez, get a life!

[SARBlade]

People, have some perspective, it is a photograph taken in time and does not in anyway allow armchair critics to decide the dangers in any practice out there, all this photo does show is that the pilot landed outside of what the circle is intended for. Was he/she safe? Looks that way doesn't it. Is it SOP for operators to always land outside the markings? No idea, but would assume no. Is training by any company outside the standards authorized? Again, I have no idea but highly doubtful, customer audits would certainly take care of that.

The positive from this topic, its a cool picture, discussion has been generated, albeit a bit negative and defensive, but a discussion nonetheless, and another picture was posted. God one has to love pictures of our work, n'est pas?

[check]

GKaplan,
Who is talking about ignorant, you, not me? Being unaware is not the same as being ignorant. When you are on the road road signs give information and by observing them you are less likely to have an accident. As part of your driving test you must learn about the highway code.

What is the difference when you strap a helicopter to your backside? Rules of the Air, Air Law, Instrument Flight Rules are followed and pilots are checked numerous times over the flying career, but come to an offshore lading area rules go out the window, not because pilots are ignorant, but because they don't have understand the signage. Don't get me wrong I was one of those too, but once I started to fly in Europe I came acros the Helideck Manual, read it and saw the light.

Before I retired I had access to a number of videos of helicopters sticking their tail rotors into obstructions, all preventable if the deck indications were followed.

Back to the photo, yes the landing easy safe, what is safer is using the H and the circle so no matter your approach direction you will always be safe. Moving cranes are another story!

[whoknows idont]

There have been made some good points pro following procedures and landing in the right spot. Having said that, I still absolutely agree with the following.

2 pages thread for that! Geez, get a life!

[Geoffersincornwall]

We have an old saying that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. I translate that to mean that a man is deemed to be wise if he knows and understands the purpose of the deck markings and how and when to use them. There are those that wrongly believe that everything out there in the offshore world is well organised, well designed and homogenous. It isn't. We can wish for a world that works according to a simple set of rules but the ingenuity, initiative and resilience of the crew are still required skills. More in some parts of the world than in others.

G.

[check]

Just to confirm the use of the "bum line"

The pilot reported that she was making a normal approach to the oil platform. Both cranes were shut down on the oil platform, and she received a green deck for landing. The helicopter was over the landing circle when she turned the helicopter’s tail and felt a severe shudder. She immediately landed and shut down the helicopter. The examination of the helicopter and landing platform revealed that the tail rotor blades had struck a handrail on the east crane davit, which resulted in substantial damage to the tail rotor gearbox and drivetrain.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to maintain tail rotor clearance from a handrail on a crane davit on an oil platform during landing.

[212man]

Check - obviously you don't get it. But, after reading some of the other posts I feel suitably re-educated:
It's not important to understand what the markings mean, or how small the margins they afford are

If I do know what they mean but am incapable of actually getting within 12 ft of where I wanted to be, that's ok and I can hope for better luck next time


Having realised I'm in the wrong place, it might be dangerous to actually enter the hover again, so I can adopt the "it's good enough for government work" stance and leave it there.


Being told where I should land is a breach of my fundamental human right to use airmanship in lieu of SOPs, so God forbid I actually use them.


I shall now consider that all those thousands of times I have put an aircraft down with my bum over the circle can be ascribed to a hitherto unknown case of OCD, so thanks for highlighting my illness and I shall seek a cure through the pages of this forum.

As an aside, to illustrate my belief in the importance of airmanship: in my last job (when writing the SOPs and checklists for the S92) my single sheet checklist for inflight use did not contain 'cruise' checks. My view was/is that the typical contents of such checks (as found in most North Sea operators' lists) constitute items that are intrinsic in 'airmanship'.

[check]

212 man,
I am not sure "what I don't get" but what I do know after many years in Flight Safety and investigating accidents/incidents is that knowing and using the deck markings is an integral part of airmanship.

[212man]

Sorry Check - I assumed my sarcasm was obvious and my points were not aimed at you but at other posters........

[Democritus]

Being a long time retired old codger, for what it's worth I'm 100% behind 212man. Having spent 27 years on the North Sea I made damn sure my bum was on the circle every single time I landed offshore whether I was sure the tail was clear or not. I bet the crew of a S61 back in 1990 thought their tail was clear of obstructions when landing on the Brent Spar. Sadly they and 6 of their passengers died not knowing why it went horribly wrong.

A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.

[212man]

Being a long time retired old codger, for what it's worth I'm 100% behind 212man. Having spent 27 years on the North Sea I made damn sure my bum was on the circle every single time I landed offshore whether I was sure the tail was clear or not. I bet the crew of a S61 back in 1990 thought their tail was clear of obstructions when landing on the Brent Spar. Sadly they and 6 of their passengers died not knowing why it went horribly wrong.

A comment was made recently during my training for the Advanced Driving Test because I always signalled my intentions even though being on a country road no traffic was around. My response was that it was standard for me - I was signalling for the guy I hadn't seen and the point was accepted. SOP's - do them whether you think they are needed or not. They were created from other people's experience. Learn from them rather than learn from your own mistakes.

Thanks Democritus, as a trainee old fart I look up to the genuine thing.

[megan]

212man, personally I've found it an enlightening discussion, and worth the two pages, despite what others apparently think. I was forced to dig out our procedures, and include pertinent parts here.

All our platforms had the circle and H, but I have no idea what standard they might have complied with, if any. One platform had at best 120° arc for T/O, landing, rather than the 210 splay called for in the CAP. Single pilot, with the wind in an unfavourable quarter, it was necessary to come to the hover along side the platform, looking across the cockpit, and slide to the left to get over the landing area. We did go two crew later. Checking just now, I see the authority has published a document which is almost word for word of your CAP.

You can see from the following why I said the operation relied on airmanship. In my 27 years there was never any incident.

HELIDECK PROCEDURES
The Pilot in Command shall ensure that objects (other than those exempted) are clear of helipads and platforms during take-off and landing operations.

Prior to touchdown on platforms, the Pilot in Command shall ensure that the tail rotor is clear of the helideck floodlights and access stairways. The helicopter should be positioned in such a way that a crewmember has the access stairway visible.

On platforms where obstacles exist close to the northern edge of the Helideck, a black line will be painted across the Helideck on the southern side to assist pilots with tail rotor clearances when hovering with a southerly aspect. With the pilots’ bodies over that line, and with the aircraft in the hover, there will only be 3 meters clearance between the tail rotor disc and the edge of the steel deck.

On Platform X, the black line has been positioned so that with the pilots’ bodies over that line in the hover, the tail rotor disc will be vertically above the edge of the steel deck. On Platform X, there should be no obstructions above Helideck level between the north edge of the steel Helideck, and the "hitching rails" on the main deck. At least 3 meters tail rotor clearance if the black line is used. (Comment: this implies to me that the bum over the circle was not a viable option, and a NS person with his/her SOP would have been in a great deal of trouble. Know the local rules/standard seems to be the lesson. See following para as well).

The black lines are advisory only, and are not intended to imply that 3 meters tail rotor clearance to platform obstructions is considered satisfactory.

Freight on Helidecks
Under certain circumstances, e.g.for manual handling considerations of platform —personnel, freight weighing at least 100 lbs may be left on the NE or NW corner ’ of the Helideck during helicopter operations. All freight on the Helideck is required to be strapped down to prevent movement from wind or rotor wash. The maximum height of the freight is one metre.

The Pilot in Command shall be the final authority for operations with freight on the Helideck.

The Pilot in Command shall ensure that at least one pilot will be able to maintain visual contact with the freight at all times during the take-off and/or landing, and shall confirm with the platform that the freight has been secured against movement.

Helideck Floodlights
Four floodlights are used to illuminate each helideck. These lights, two on north side, two on south side, are situated on the outer edge of the safety netting, and extend 42 cms above helideck level. They therefore represent a significant hazard to tail rotor clearance when terminating on the approach, and in the hover.

CRITICAL PROCEDURE LINKED TO HELIPORT RISK SCENARIO HX08, WHICH IS CLASSIFIED AS LRM.
COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PROCEDURE IS A KEY PREVENTION MEASURE IN REDUCING THIS RISK.

lf in doubt about the suitability of any platform for landing or take·off, the Pilot in Command shall abort the operation until satisfied.

[steve_oc]

Hey 212man, I bet you never thought you would stir up such a hornets nest😀. Good job I landed in the centre on the Forties D, I didn't know anyone was going to take "that" picture...

[Geoffersincornwall]

I want you to imagine that whilst sitting in your comfortable business class seat on the 747 landing at LHR the Captain comes on the PA and explains to the pax that he is now handing control to the co pilot because from his seat he cannot actually see the runway.

Crazy - yes.... but it's what the offshore captain has to do when it's a LHS landing for he cannot see the deck once he gets to LDP.

The greatest number of incidents offshore are caused by the helicopter striking an object in the vicinity of the helideck.

G.

[212man]

Hey 212man, I bet you never thought you would stir up such a hornets nest😀. Good job I landed in the centre on the Forties D, I didn't know anyone was going to take "that" picture...

I would not have expected anything else from you Steve! Not sure whether to laugh or cry at some the posts though, although pleased some have learned something.

Whilst on the main topic, something to bear in mind is that alleviations will be in place to allow the AH175 and AW139 to use 0.83D decks. This will make the margins even smaller, and positioning even more important.

[megan]

212man, just a query, did you pick up the phone to the operating base and inquire as to the story behind your photo? Would seem a sensible thing to do if you regard it as such a safety issue. Conduct you walk past is conduct you accept as OK, as one Australian famously said.

[Old Farang]

Put yer ass over the yellow line ..
Most short landings occur because pilots focus on the H instead of the opposite (upwind) edge of the helideck.
Just my humble opinion.
I am also long retired, but recall discovering this very early in my training.