Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Helideck aiming (TD/PM) circles

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Helideck aiming (TD/PM) circles

Old 15th Sep 2016, 15:24
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,673
Helideck aiming (TD/PM) circles

I see CHC have modified their line training when it comes to how to land on helidecks...


As a reminder:
Touchdown/Positioning Marking Circle. Described as the Aiming Circle in earlier editions of CAP 437, the TD/PM Circle is the aiming point for a normal touchdown (landing) so located that when the pilotís seat is over the marking, the whole of the undercarriage will be within the landing area and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any
obstacles by a safe margin.

Note: It should be noted that only correct positioning over the TD/PM
Circle will ensure proper clearance with respect to physical
obstacles and provision of ground effect and provision of
adequate passenger access/egress
212man is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2016, 17:17
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sometimes here, sometimes there
Posts: 386
Exactly what I thought when I saw the photograph.

Must have been an ex-EC225 pilot
Variable Load is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 01:06
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 63
Not that I'm anywhere near the greatest at landing on a deck but I fail to see how one photo taken in time constitutes a normal practice of the entire CHC compliment of pilots. Really I think the purpose of your post was simple to stir the pot. I feel confident saying that you are indeed the best pilot out there and have never landed in outside the circle. Bravo, and kudos to you sir!
SARBlade is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 02:25
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,319


9 inches?

No knowledge of what you guys require, but it seems none of the items in the Note have been transgressed, and he/she is certainly clear of obstacles.

Perhaps the following discussion is taking place in the cockpit. Captain to copilot, who has just flown his/her first approach in a 92 to an offshore platform, "Son/Lass, you need to land further forward in the circle, else 212man is going to chew your ass".
megan is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 07:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
212man,

Tut, tut ....... to ensure clearance from obstacles but durrrrr - his/her tail is in the obstacle FREE sector!!!
tistisnot is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 07:52
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,673
....so located that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking....
9 inches?

No knowledge of what you guys require, but it seems none of the items in the Note have been transgressed,
So, looking at the H as a reference distance, it's about 12 ft short, not 9 inches!

Not that I'm anywhere near the greatest at landing on a deck but I fail to see how one photo taken in time constitutes a normal practice of the entire CHC compliment of pilots. Really I think the purpose of your post was simple to stir the pot. I feel confident saying that you are indeed the best pilot out there and have never landed in outside the circle. Bravo, and kudos to you sir!
Slight stirring intended - yes - although I would have posted regardless of operator, and maybe been even unkinder if it was my previous employer! No, I am not the best pilot out there, but do/did try and maintain a consistent standard.
212man is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 07:54
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,673
"Son/Lass, you need to land further forward in the circle, else 212man is going to chew your ass".
No, next time you may not be pointing in the same direction, it may be dark and your tail rotor may be chewing a crane!
212man is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 10:56
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
212man,

Sorry but these are remarks from a retired or office-bound pilot ...... if the crane was there he would have hit it on approach BEFORE landing ....... the CAP437 notes are for ensuring clearance if manoeuvring on the helideck. I bet at night this pilot would have landed out of wind / at right angles to the chevron to ensure his tail clearance, and allow passengers direct egress to the exit where the cameraman is stood ....... and if the wind was too strong would have used his initiative to employ your technique if required
tistisnot is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 11:16
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,319
You may have your SOP 212man and have your standards/aviation adviser hat on, but I think given the deck layout you are being a tad anal on this particular occasion, with all due respect. Absolutely nothing unsafe in the aircrafts positioning on this particular occasion, the only obstructions I can see is the superstructure inboard, and I wouldn't be landing with my tail pointing in that direction in any event.

megan is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 12:10
  #10 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,673
if the crane was there he would have hit it on approach BEFORE landing ....... the CAP437 notes are for ensuring clearance if manoeuvring on the helideck.
Yes, I know what the markings are for - thanks. But how many pilots are aware of how small the margins are when manoeuvring over the deck?

You may have your SOP 212man
your technique
Err no, not MY SOP/Technique at all!

Sorry but these are remarks from a retired or office-bound pilot
Which has a bearing on what, exactly?
212man is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 13:22
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,319
so located that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking, the whole of the undercarriage will be within the landing area and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any obstacles by a safe margin.
Definition: Landing Area: A generic term referring to the load-bearing area primarily intended for the landing and take-off of aircraft. The area, sometimes referred to as the Final Approach and Take-Off area (FATO), is bounded by the perimeter line and perimeter lighting.

Think the guy/gal achieved all that, U/C is within the landing area. Poor wording of the quote, or the definition of "landing area", a bush lawyer could have a field day. Imagine the result if the U/C wasn't within the landing area, as per the definition of same.
megan is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 13:39
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 75
Posts: 767
Time to use HFDM to monitor accuracy of deck positioning or perhaps get the HLOs to score each landing like they do on aircraft carriers.
Shell Management is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 13:45
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the sea
Posts: 1
Surprised at some of the responses here.

ICAO Annex 14 - Volume 2

5.2.9.1 A touchdown/positioning marking shall be provided where it is necessary for a helicopter to touch down or be accurately placed in a specific position.

5.2.9.2 A touchdown/positioning marking shall be located so that when the pilot’s seat is over the marking, the undercarriage will be inside the load-bearing area, and all parts of the helicopter will be clear of any obstacle by a safe margin.

The only time that the safety of the helicopter can be guaranteed is when the pilot is positioned correctly on the TD/PM. For those who wish to make their own assessment of obstacle clearance, read the Brent Spar accident report (G-BEWL) & the human factor issues therein
1FD2 is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 14:06
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
And there lies a problem of HFDM ...... mobile vessels / rigs are not fixed landing runways - the deck heading is not known by the system at the time!!? Shelly you know that?!
tistisnot is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 15:15
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 75
Posts: 767
I also know Mariner B is a fixed installation.

But in the case of floaters the HLO could just hit a button (1 to 10 or red, amber or green) to grade the landing and that could be set up to send an e-mail to the Chief Pilot, OIM/Master and of course the company aviation advisor.

Such real time compliance monitoring would certainly improve standards.
Shell Management is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2016, 20:52
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,054
Put yer ass over the yellow line ..
Most short landings occur because pilots focus on the H instead of the opposite (upwind) edge of the helideck.
Just my humble opinion.

Last edited by albatross; 17th Sep 2016 at 14:53.
albatross is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2016, 00:55
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,319
I also know Mariner B is a fixed installation
So there is, but in this case it is the ship. You need to get out more.

megan is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2016, 07:45
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 282
212man: you'd be amazed to see how many line training captains and senior captains have absolutely no clue about this - in my experience though, and in fairness, those were mostly GOM pilots. One LTC told me with a dead serious face that I should trust him, because he had been involved in helideck certification and CAP437 supported his view - bit of Kafka moment there really. You'd be more forgiving with those who have never heard about CAP437, than those who pretend to know the content and yet have absolutely no idea of what it recommends.
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2016, 08:51
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 72
Posts: 1,305
We are once again in danger of being a trifle EURO/US - centric in our views. Anyone who has lived offshore with their machine for any length of time will tell you that the key thing about deck markings is to understand why they are there and how to use them when you need to know how much room you have to play with when manoeuvring on the deck.

I have observed that there are many who operate safely without the slightest idea what that yellow/white aiming circle means. Sad but true because that lack of knowledge may one day cost you dear.

When operating a machine on a minimum sized deck for that size of helicopter the pilot can only be sure he can move the tail into the 150 deg. obstacle sector safely if his bum is kept over the aiming circle whilst keeping the centreline of the helicopter through the centre of the circle. Why would he want to do that? If you have to ask that question you have lived a sheltered life or not been in the business long enough. ;-)

Outside Europe/US there are parts of the world where they have no idea what you are talking about when you ask them how to use the deck markings correctly.

Having said all that those that operate to/from decks built for larger types are not really involved in the same debate but it still helps to know why the circle is there and how to use it when you need to.

G.
Geoffersincornwall is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2016, 09:34
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,319
Outside Europe/US there are parts of the world where they have no idea what you are talking about when you ask them how to use the deck markings correctly.
Hand up to that until this thread came along. Long retired, but we seemed to operate OK by being cognisant of the layout of the platforms (someone mention airmanship?). Same as if you were operating into a restricted area. If someone broke down, the aircraft was positioned on the very edge of the perimeter, and the rescue landed alongside, with the "H" twix the two aircraft. I know some of you are going to cringe, but it had the full approval from the highest of the high. Times do change but.
megan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.