View Full Version : Dam Buster Training & Raid Routes
vhrsfvhojb
8th Aug 2016, 05:44
Hi, Does anyone have details of the training routes used by 617 Squadron in the low-level pre-raid training in the UK?. I'd like to plot them using Google Earth to make Google "Tours" and also to create Flight Plans for use in Microsoft FS X.
Also if anyone has access to the Appendices in the Operation Order No.B976 which detail the planned inbound and outbound routes of the actual raid... I have already plotted those using the best info I can find - Helmuth Euler's books, but they're certainly not as precise as I'm sure was given to the Navigators, or on the charts they used for map-reading at the time.
Have any of these actual used strip-charts survived in Official Archives or Museums?
Linedog
8th Aug 2016, 08:25
Have you tried "Just Flight's" Dambusters Sim add-on? It includes flyable routes, aircraft, weapons, and incoming flak.
tartare
8th Aug 2016, 08:58
Watched the film yesterday.
Did some reading afterwards - interesting to learn that the effect of the raids only lasted a few months - with Ruhr industrial production almost fully restored by that point.
Which is not in any way to undermine the bravery of the men from 617.
Or Barnes Wallis' extraordinary persistence in the face of sceptics.
Great movie... especially Nigger... oops.
Poor pooch.
connoisseur
8th Aug 2016, 09:05
https://dambustersblog.com/2011/09/21/dams-raid-route-%E2%80%93-a-modern-re-creation/
hth
'Cept his name wasn't Nigger....it was changed for the film from....errr C..t so I am told
*ahem* GAZSD := ;)
Anyway, an interesting bit of Nav history.
vhrsfvhojb
8th Aug 2016, 22:52
Thanks to all replies so far.I have seen all of the above, but am looking for much more detail on the routings. So far, Euler's books, and the ref above at https://dambustersblog.com/2011/09/21/dams-raid-route-%E2%80%93-a-modern-re-creation/ have given most detail. I'm trying to follow up on the latter to get a copy of the actual plan he used. I know pretty well where the turning points were, but the implications of the above link are that there were very specific objects at the TPs. Many are obvious - coastal features, canal junctions, river bends, etc. It looks as though wherever possible they selected water features as showing best in moonlight, whilst trying to avoid known airfields, flak spots etc. Still hoping for more... Flying FS X at night by moonlight on the date and time is challenging. I'm still talking to Forum techies about how to remove all ground lighting - towns, roads etc, as there would have been blackout condits on the ground. Terrain flat most of the way, but after the final turn to the Mo(e)hne it's much tougher trying to terrain-hug with a sluggish a/c and not much vis ahead.
kghjfg
9th Aug 2016, 22:24
I was talking to someone recently who actually served at Scampton during the war. They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.
Warmtoast
29th Nov 2018, 09:56
The new “The Dambusters” is taking a long time to get airborne as BBC reported way back in 2011
The Dam Busters’ dog will be renamed for a new version of the classic war movie, it has emerged.
Stephen Fry, who is writing the film’s screenplay, said there was “no question in America that you could ever have a dog called the N-word”.
In the remake, the dog will be called “Digger” instead of “Nigger”.
The black Labrador was the mascot for RAF 617 squadron, which during World War II destroyed dams in Germany with Barnes Wallis’s famous bouncing bomb.
Owned by the squadron’s wing commander, Guy Gibson, the animal was run over and killed during the planning of the Dambuster raids, and was buried at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire - from where the operation was launched.
Fry told BBC Radio 5 live: “It’s no good saying that it is the Latin word for black or that it didn’t have the meaning that it does now - you just can’t go back, which is unfortunate.
“You can go to RAF Scampton and see the dog’s grave and there he is with his name, and it’s an important part of the film.
“The name of the dog was a code word to show that the dam had been successfully breached.
“In the film, you’re constantly hearing ‘N-word, N-word, N-word, hurray’ and Barnes Wallis is punching the air. But obviously that’s not going to happen now.
“So Digger seems OK, I reckon.”
Phil Bonner, from Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire, said: “I think for the Second World War generation that word was acceptable.
“But with my daughters growing up in Lincolnshire, they have been taught that the word is unacceptable now.
“The film is not about the dog. My big concern would be if they watered down what the Dam Busters had achieved.”
The 1955 film, which starred Sir Michael Redgrave and Richard Todd, told the story of Barnes Wallis’ struggle to develop the bomb and the subsequent raids on Nazi Germany - codenamed Operation Chastise.
The remake is being produced by Lord of the Rings director Peter Jackson.
Nige321
29th Nov 2018, 10:34
New report today...
I know, it's the Daily Mail... (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6440769/Oscar-winning-director-Peter-Jackson-reveal-secret-truth-iconic-Dambusters-raid.html)
Oscar-winning director Peter Jackson is set to reveal the secret history of the iconic Dambusters raid in a film remake after purchasing the rights to previously declassified information.The new movie will include details that had previously not been featured, as they had been protected by the Official Secrets Act.The original 1955 film, starring Richard Todd and Michael Redgrave, told of the Operation Chastise which set out to destroy three dams deep within Germany (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/germany/index.html)'s Ruhr valley in order to set back the Nazi's war effort, a task that was thought near impossible.However Mr Jackson has now said the movie was a 'romanticised' portrayal and skipped out on vital details due to the secrecy act that was in place.He has now confirmed his plans for a remake after trying to get the project off the ground for almost ten years.
langleybaston
29th Nov 2018, 18:49
I was talking to someone recently who actually served at Scampton during the war. They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.
Difficult to believe. I served at/ visited Scampton on and off through the 1970s and 1980s and the grave was there throughout. Not a lot of tourists in those days, and a great deal of security,
They told me they could show me where nigger is actually buried. Apparently there's a memorial thing for tourists. It's not where he actually is though.
As Trump would say - fake news.
Nigger's grave is outside one of the hangars. It used to be a secondary duty of the most junior officer at Scampton to tend the grave. There are several images available.
An emotive picture:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2u7r638.jpg
DaveReidUK
29th Nov 2018, 20:58
Nigger's grave is outside one of the hangars. It used to be a secondary duty of the most junior officer at Scampton to tend the grave. There are several images available.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x590/raf_scampton_022_1780d0988fb577824dd0805d46974171ae4534d8.jp g
For some reason I found it quite emotional to stand outside the railings surrounding it.
There were no tourists then.
The dog was nothing special, but at the same time very special.
Per Ardua…...
PAXboy
29th Nov 2018, 21:42
I can only hope that the next film of the raid never gets made. It was what it was and Britain does not need to look back any more. They did great things and they got the praise they deserved. Another film is just a way to make money.
Barksdale Boy
29th Nov 2018, 22:16
During my time on 617 Sqn it was the duty of the squadron's junior crew to tend Nigger's grave, which was located just in front of the squadron's offices. So, typically, you did it for about a month. It was the accepted wisdom, however, that he was actually buried somewhere behind the airmen's mess.
DaveReidUK
29th Nov 2018, 22:35
I can only hope that the next film of the raid never gets made. It was what it was and Britain does not need to look back any more. They did great things and they got the praise they deserved.
Hmmm.
Another way of looking at it is that it was a daring and ingenious raid about which, we now learn, there are many things that were not in the public domain at the time the original film was made, but now are.
Another film is just a way to make money.
Films only make money if they tell a story that's worth telling.
PAXboy
29th Nov 2018, 23:25
My concern is that the film will draw people for the reason of 'good old battling britain blah blah'. If there are new facts - make a documentary.
Pontius Navigator
30th Nov 2018, 14:18
My concern is that the film will draw people for the reason of 'good old battling britain blah blah'. If there are new facts - make a documentary.
An interesting pov. Would there be enough money in a pure documentary to do the subject justice?
They shall not grow only wasn't made as a big feature film but has certainly been well received. The difference between that film and a DB documentary is the lack of sufficient contemporary film.
chevvron
1st Dec 2018, 03:20
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x590/raf_scampton_022_1780d0988fb577824dd0805d46974171ae4534d8.jp g
The late 'Mr Grubby' and I were air traffic assistants together at West Drayton in the early '70s. Before joining NATCS, he had worked as a civilian employee at Scampton as a sort of general factotum and one of his jobs was keeping the area around Nigger's grave in good condition.
If you can find a copy of his autobiography (limited edtion - only about 12 printed at his own expense) he goes into further detail.
b1lanc
2nd Dec 2018, 03:02
An interesting pov. Would there be enough money in a pure documentary to do the subject justice?
They shall not grow only wasn't made as a big feature film but has certainly been well received. The difference between that film and a DB documentary is the lack of sufficient contemporary film.
I'm trying to imagine what 'facts' have been held secret beyond those that had already been released (such as the actual specs for the weapon) decades ago. The statements that the original was 'romanticized' and he purchased the rights to previously declassified information bothers me in terms of what to expect from the next version. If there is much more to the story, I do hope it is told in a docu-drama mode, which from my perspective, I believe the original film was actually very close to. Incredibly popular here.- a historical drama (though a compressed time-frame of events was unavoidable, and deliberate story line stretches were made to make Gibson's character more appealing). What I've found profoundly compelling since are the surviving crew interviews, most of whom have since passed on - Les Munro, Johnnie Johnson, and particularly Ken Brown.
I've been watching the original film in the US since it was first broadcast on TV in the 1960s (and yes the dog's name was faithfully true for a long long time). At one point, the broadcast stations changed the name to Trigger. Dam Busters was one of the first VHS tapes sold when VHS players first hit the market - I was astonished to see it on the store shelf in the late 70's. I still have my original. Dog's name is accurate on the VHS as well as the subsequent DVD. I'll also say that I watched the movie on Turner some months back and the showing was faithful to original production.
Haraka
2nd Dec 2018, 16:56
Then there was the incident where "Gibson" waving "chocks away" had to be reshot because Todd's face was partly obscured by a mic.tel.lead. (Not surprising since he was wearing his headset back to front ).
Warmtoast
2nd Dec 2018, 20:58
And there was I thinking I was unique because I'd gone over the dam at head-height, but of course I wasn't because I'd walked over the dam with my family on a day trip out to visit this memorable landmark whilst stationed at JHQ Rheindahlen.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x527/mohne_20see_zpsvmpl2u19_39150c28b655ba555bc4b19e746b74fb18c9 4525.jpg
Photo taken at the time (summer 1973) with no obvious signs of damage caused during the raid.
Pontius Navigator
3rd Dec 2018, 16:35
b1Lanc, I think you are right about the declassified material that was omitted from the original film. I think there were two aspects. One was the spin rotation and the other concerned the potential for High Ball to be used against ships.
In a more recent documentary they dealt a problem with the explosive filling. It had to be evenly distributed one the cylinder, ie balanced. I think that was something omitted from the reason for early failures.
b1lanc
6th Dec 2018, 00:22
b1Lanc, I think you are right about the declassified material that was omitted from the original film. I think there were two aspects. One was the spin rotation and the other concerned the potential for High Ball to be used against ships.
In a more recent documentary they dealt a problem with the explosive filling. It had to be evenly distributed one the cylinder, ie balanced. I think that was something omitted from the reason for early failures.
It was interesting to see the mine shown in the movie vice what it really looked like - a cylinder for Upkeep. I first saw the real one on a model in a hobby shop in the 70's after Upkeep was declassified and thought boy did they get that wrong. If I recall the smaller Highball dropped initially from the Wimpy and Mossies were just about what the movie portrayed as the original Upkeep. I forget who, but one of the surviving crewmembers recalled in a video that the plane shook like mad once the rotation began.
Interesting 2017 story in the Sun, with some pictures, of attempts to raise a couple of Highballs this last year. Don't know if they ever did.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/1145381/daring-attempt-to-raise-dambusters-highballs-from-the-depths-of-scottish-loch-near-bute-for-75th-anniversary-next-year/
chevvron
6th Dec 2018, 06:32
Highballs were that shape because of the rubberised 'jacket' allowing it to be dropped on land without detonating prematurely.
Haraka
6th Dec 2018, 12:07
The original "Upkeep" bomb was externally spherical as desired by Barnes Wallis ,the cylindrical steel cylinder being faired by wood into a sphere. Examples were dropped three times between April 16th and 22nd 1943 by ED 365 off Reculver. Each time the fairing disintegrated on contact with water. It was then dispensed with and a successful drop with the steel "core" achieved on April 29th. The extended development history of the smaller , Mosquito borne, spherical " Highball " ended shortly after the end of the war .
Pontius Navigator
6th Dec 2018, 15:15
But Highball could bounce over anti-torpedo nets. Whilst we still development there remained the risk that its design could be used against us - viz Pearl Harbour.
The new “The Dambusters” is taking a long time to get airborne as BBC reported way back in 2011
Wouldn't renaming the dog 'Digger p*** off the Ozzies?
b1lanc
8th Dec 2018, 23:06
Just perusing Amazon and came across "Enemy Coast Ahead" Uncensored published 2006. Has anyone read that version? I have the hard copy of the original which I bought decades ago. Curious what other information might have been censored.
Wouldn't renaming the dog 'Digger p*** off the Ozzies?
Possibly, but it would certainly upset those in headquarters, who were expecting "N*gger". "Are you sure you copied that correctly, Smith?"
chevvron
9th Dec 2018, 07:29
Just perusing Amazon and came across "Enemy Coast Ahead" Uncensored published 2006. Has anyone read that version? I have the hard copy of the original which I bought decades ago. Curious what other information might have been censored.
The story that whilst on his honeymoon, the pub they were staying in fried his smoked salmon.
Fantome
16th Dec 2018, 15:25
In Tasmania in 1998 I met an Englishmen, Ray Rhodes, who said he was a Lancaster pilot with 617 SQN at the time of the Dam's raid. He said his nav, his best mate, was Nick, who was killed as a result of flying through heavy flak.
Was Ray telling the truth? Or did he lie to me?
Frying the smoked salmon? Hilarious. As good as the batman who polished his colonel's small change as he did not have time to do the fiddly bits on the Sam Brown and other items of uniform. (The aim was to distract his boss at the time of his getting dressed. "My God! He's polished my coins.")