Perfect Storm

[InnocentBystander]

So, I've now experienced the Turbo Prop Wonder boy trained by the TRI who just became a Captain himself a couple of months prior (Not an assumption, he confirmed that). Full of "techniques" and other bull**** that can only be explained by "making **** up to appear competent".

3/4 of the time he didn't even understand what the EU ATC wanted from him, and that was only the PM leg.

The PF leg was even worse.

The perfect storm.

Edit: And, just to clarify, the guy had a great attitude and will eventually be a good SFO. It's just that the training department has let him down.

[donpizmeov]

Write your concerns with details to your fleet training manager not here.

[sluggums]

Please... For all our sakes. These things need to be highlighted.

[glofish]

Write your concerns with details to your fleet training manager not here.

And what exactly do you expect from such a letter?
After all it was those same managers who trained the FO, the captain and the trainer and gave them the nod!

I know nothing will change with a rant on here, but nothing changes anyway with such a rotten and sometimes even corrupt system in dire need of bodies. So at least we can vent some anger here, it's relieving .....

[donpizmeov]

Glofish,

The managers have probably never flown with the FO, nor the LTCs if they are new. They rely on someone getting a 2 to highlight that something is wrong. If that don't happen they are clueless.

I can think of several trainers that have been removed from training when reports ( that's plural) stated they were no good. So yes, writing does make a difference.

[InnocentBystander]

Write your concerns with details to your fleet training manager not here.

Yeah, it's like writing all those CSR's, fatigue reports and ASR's, right? All the great changes those have caused. I can tell you that the only things that cause actual change at this airline, are KIS reports.

[harry the cod]

IB

Well, having a Bangalore, Chennai and Male now as layovers as well as extending SEY beyond min rest is proof that reports DO work. When people say they can't be bothered because nothing will change, they're right. If you don't bother, nothing will change. :ugh:

At least by submitting a report, something MAY change. Writing to the head of training with the concern will not only highlight the problem, but will make them culpable when things go wrong. Without doing so, there's no email trail and plenty of excuses that 'they didn't know because nobody told them'!

Just do it and copy in AAR too. Not only will the policy have come from him but he wants to hear from us......remember!

Harry

[Wizofoz]

I can assure you that if TM got an email saying a TC had bollocked someone for being courteous in leaving charts accessible, at a MINIMUM the offending TC would get a talking too.

Well worth reporting that kind of crap.

[InnocentBystander]

Well, having a Bangalore, Chennai and Male now as layovers as well as extending SEY beyond min rest is proof that reports DO work. When people say they can't be bothered because nothing will change, they're right. If you don't bother, nothing will change.

The head of human factors begged us once at a CRM recurrent to write more reports, because only more reports will lead to change. A similar request has been made to me by the CP-B.

This is like saying we need more accidents, because only accidents will lead to change.

I'm sorry, but I won't do the job of these high paid managers for them. They're simply passing the buck, because they won't risk their cushy job and maid and driver and second maid.

[Panther 88]

The head of human factors begged us once at a CRM recurrent to write more reports, because only more reports will lead to change. A similar request has been made to me by the CP-B.

This is like saying we need more accidents, because only accidents will lead to change.

I'm sorry, but I won't do the job of these high paid managers for them. They're simply passing the buck, because they won't risk their cushy job and maid and driver and second maid.
Sorry IB, can't agree with your final assessment. ONLY through data will anything get done without the smoking hole. The higher upstairs have been told over and over again about issues we complain about here. All they want to see are the reports, no reports, no data, no problem, no changes. So what the head of human factors said and the CP-B said, if true, reflects their frustration as well. They are not passing the buck.

[WrldWide]

It sounds like the problem is indeed the training environment as well as the on-line attitude and not the applicants background. I went from a turboprop straight into a hvy trijet, as did alot of my peers, and adjusted very well,we all did. The transition training was stringent, but we also had good, competent support from the line captains. If a line captain expects perfection from a newhire, then the disappointment of said captain is to be expected. Back in the days when we were pilots, we supported and mentored the new guys. I guess those days are becoming but a memory for some who forget they were also less experienced once.

[CAYNINE]

World Wide........ "LIKE"

[crewmeal]

Why write ASR's etc when management can read all about it on here? Next time you're called in for 'Tea and biccys' and a manager asks 'I've read a report on a forum.........is it true that........?

I suspect some managers reach for their pads to read after a 9 hour beauty sleep to see what's been written about them.

[harry the cod]

Fully agree with Panther88

IB

Second maid? What, for the HF manager? Don't think so pal, you might be surprised to know that he's taking home less than a junior F/O.

When you say that you're not prepared to do 'their' job for them, what is 'your' job exactly? I would think that as a professional, and particularly as a Captain, you would take the responsibility of submitting these reports because whether you like it or not, it IS your responsibility. As the commander of the aircraft, you are required, and expected, to highlight actual or potential threats in our operation, square and simple. The whole point of these reports is that we're trying to avoid the accident you think is necessary before people listen.

By throwing your hands up and saying 'not my aisle mate', you become just as negligent as those that you criticise. Ironically, you're protecting these 'high paid managers' by not highlighting problems. The Challenger disaster, Chernobyl, Herald of Free Enterprise are just a few examples of where management were informed on many occasions of systemic and design defects but chose to do nothing. They were the ones that became culpable in the investigation, not the individuals at the pointy end.

Harry

[Talparc]

Guys those introduced layovers are not really a consequence of your reports its more of the company beeing nowadays scared of foreign oversight as those flights/layover simply were illegal concerning flight duty.
Its hiding their muppet ****.
The truth is getting closer and more changes will happen as the outside pressure is getting stronger.

[QCM]

Not understanding network accents has nothing to see with ex turboprop experience,just network inexperience.
Otherwise yes Innocent unfortunately the core of the problem is connected with lack of staff,expanding airline,...etc...

[fatbus]

Classic, complain about long night turns . They get changed to a layover. Some of the US ULRs changed to longer layovers. Now the complaints are about only 9 days off in a month. Boys it's time to face reality. 100 hrs/ 900 hard hrs and 9 days off. 777 is now duty limited, 380 still hours limited. That is not going to change.

[kingpost]

Fatbus

According to the Regs, that's 900 BLOCK hours, not stick hours, which is what they work on!!!

[troff]

Fatbus

According to the Regs, that's 900 BLOCK hours, not stick hours, which is what they work on!!!

Got the reference for that 900 hour limit?

[pfvspnf]

At the OP, out of curiosity how do the local cadets do at EK? Are they trained under a completely different program , more sim, more sectors ?

The turbo prop driver must have had a lot more experience than the kids just starting out?!

[harry the cod]

Before they even start flying, all will have an extensive English language course, some for over a year. Lot's of training done in house before being sent away to flying schools, currently Oxford in UK followed by the US for flying, then back to Oxford for final exams and twin IR rating. Back to Dubai for more intensive fixed base sim, classroom and full motion sim before starting line training. This is a minimum of 120 sectors, sometimes up to 150 if needed.

Experience they may be short of, but for training and knowledge to fly a commercial airliner, they are not. It's a 3 year course, minimum. It's not a guaranteed pass. Those that fail to reach the standard are removed, some even as late as line training.

Harry

[dhc8d]

And some are sent to flight training europe at Jerez de la frantera spain (ex BAE Systems)

[Schnowzer]

Got the reference for that 900 hour limit?

CAR‐OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Time and Duty Period

a. No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;

(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or

(2) during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:

[Talparc]

so are they following this rule?
Guess not!

[JAYTO]

they are following THEIR rules as approved by THEIR regulator.

whats your point?

[Talparc]

funnily Their rules and Their regulator are the same person
so does it ring a bell for you or are you too fatique to use your brain properly?

[Emma Royds]

Line training in any airline is there to equip one with the basics so that they can operate safely but finesse and overall polish is not what line training is designed to create. These qualities mature with time and mainly due to two reasons. Firstly improvement though greater experience thanks to self learning and learning from mistakes and secondly and most importantly, by observing colleagues and seeing how they operate.

Whilst we are bound by a myriad of company procedures and rules, we all add our own personal touch to the operation. These personal touches often enable us to go above and beyond what is expected to make us compliant with the various policies and rules. It's this that creates the finesse and attention to detail and this evolves over time and not overnight.

Once equipped with the basics and released to the line from training, then any new F/O in any company will then spend nearly all their time flying with line captains. So guess what the main source of knowledge and guidance will be to allow your new F/O to improve?

I would hazard a guess that the new turboprop pilots coming here to EK are aware that it's a big step and are hungry for advice and knowledge, since they are grateful for the chance of going straight onto a widebody jet, despite all the ills that the company faces. That is for a separate thread! The experience spectrum of pilots joining from turboprops is varied with some holding TRE positions previously and have amassed more than a few hours over the years. Dismissing them as 'boy wonders' is unfair to your new colleagues. If you see something that could be done better on a flight, buy them a beer downroute and share your knowledge and chat about it. They could very well repay you with more than a few beers if you ever fly together again.

[dhc8d]

That's very well said Emma Royds

[fatbus]

I've said this before , I would take an experienced TP Capt/TRI/TRE over most of the 2500 HR320/737 wonder pilots.