P8 Manning

[Flying Wild]

How likely is it for the MOD/RAF to create a reserve Sqn/Flt given the number of RAFVR personnel out there flying the 737-800 at the moment? I know of a handful. All they'd need was a conversion course and special to role training and then you'd have a cheap-ish source of suitably qualified and experienced pilots?

[Tourist]

All they'd need was a conversion course and special to role training.....


That is true of typhoon pilots and chinook pilots too. We call it "training" and it is not cheap. The idea that Ryanair pilots are practically P8 pilots is foolish.

[Evalu8ter]

FW,
Flying an aircraft is relatively easy - operating a highly complex military aircraft in a variety of roles with advanced sensors, weapons, comms and, doubtless, different flight regimes is very difficult. To use Tourist's approach above, could a CPL(H) fly a Chinook? Absolutely, it's actually a very simple aircraft to fly (AFCS in....) and he/she could probably hover and fly a circuit in very few minutes. Now, take that CPL(H) and ask them to fly at night, on NVGs, at low level, in poor weather, in a hostile EW environment and risk being shot at in the landing zone....well, I don't recall many of those skills being on a Commercial syllabus. I imagine for the P8 there is still a requirement to fly low level over water for various tasks, and to deal with a very complex weapon system (albeit with help). In short, conversion to type can be pretty straightforward, conversion to to role and achieving Combat Ready is an entirely different matter and where most of the expense is. However, if there were ex-Kipper fleet guys out there currently flying the 737-800 it might help to have a RAuxAF flight in the early stages to help build the available front end pool. My guess is that the pinch point is actually going to be with the highly specialised rear crew, only so many of which went on seed corn or remain in the RAF......

[Wensleydale]

My guess is that the pinch point is actually going to be with the highly specialised rear crew, only so many of which went on seed corn or remain in the RAF......


...and live in the far north of Scotland of course!

[Rossian]

..........the rest of us just went to seed and ended up in the Beastie on the last Friday of each month.

The Ancient Mariner

[Shack37]

..........the rest of us just went to seed and ended up in the Beastie on the last Friday of each month.


Bragging or complaining:E

[Heathrow Harry]

"Flying an aircraft is relatively easy - operating a highly complex military aircraft in a variety of roles with advanced sensors, weapons, comms and, doubtless, different flight regimes is very difficult."

Well the US National Guard manage it all the time................

[Tourist]

US National Guard do not fly for Ryanair.....

I'd love to see the discussion where you go to O'Leary and suggest that you deploy for 3 months every year.

Even BA and Virgin only give 2 weeks for reservists. Good luck remaining competent on 2 weeks a year

[Flying Wild]

US National Guard do not fly for Ryanair.....

I'd love to see the discussion where you go to O'Leary and suggest that you deploy for 3 months every year.

Even BA and Virgin only give 2 weeks for reservists. Good luck remaining competent on 2 weeks a year

However they do fly for the likes of Air Southwest which operates to the same model. The difference is the USA has more robust legislation where reservists and time off for reserve duties is concerned.

And regarding your earlier comment, I wasn't proposing that the RAF take a commercial pilot and plop him on the flight deck of a P8. I was referring to the ex-RAF, current RAF VR, former fast jet/nimrod/c-130 pilots who work for the airlines flying the 737-800.

[Duchess_Driver]

Most of the FR drivers I know are VERY competent operators, but competency isn't going to be the issue here...

FR drivers are worked to FTL max as it is and get a month off so they can work within that limit. Negotiating an extension to those FTLs with the airlines would, I suspect, be very problematic and getting an extension to those FTLs through the legislative process with everybody commenting on fatigue.....probably easier to nail blancmange to the ceiling.

Nice thought though....

[Flying Wild]

BTW, FR aren't the only 737-800 operator out there you know! There are others where hitting FTL limits aren't such an issue, plus if you're flying an aircraft on the military register, does it count against your civilian FTLs?

[Tourist]

Yes, it most definitely does I can tell you from experience.

[5aday]

does it count against your civilian FTLs?
Most definitely. I was flying VR on CXX at Kinloss as an AEOp late 80's /early 90's and Current Ops in BA were 'forward' calculating my trips and making allowances for time done at Kinloss. I seem to recall they only reckoned on a possible 80 hours per month that they could roster me. (not that they ever did!)

[5aday]

ps. I was licensed as P1 on 737.400. Any use? ha ha:bored:
pps. I'm 69 yrs old this weekend. :ok:

[oxenos]

5aday
I did 5 tours on kipper fleet and 14,000 hours on 73's, and I'm only 73. We should team up. Old age and treachery and all that.

[A and C]

IMO my 6000 hours on the B737-800 is very poor preparation for the military role that the aircraft will undertake ........ Anyhow why should I want to change, the pay is better, the crew in the back are easier on the eye, the crew food is passable and the worst detachment is likely to be a few days in a four star Malaga hotel.

Added to this there are no secondary duties and my family don't have to live in a mismanaged company slum.

The conclusion I come to is the RAF are likely to have a problem with P8 crews exiting to the airlines rather than a rush of airline pilots wanting to fly the P8.

[Professor Plum]

A and C,

Your post is spot on IMHO

[Krystal n chips]

" Added to this there are no secondary duties and my family don't have to live in a mismanaged company slum.

The conclusion I come to is the RAF are likely to have a problem with P8 crews exiting to the airlines rather than a rush of airline pilots wanting to fly the P8.

And at some point, it may also begin to dawn that the above will also apply to engineers.

[switch_on_lofty]

To answer the OP who I think has made a sensible suggestion(!) I don't know but I do have the contact details of the future kipper manners somewhere if you want to ask them?

[5aday]

I'm asking?

[switch_on_lofty]

If your profile is to be believed you are probably too old to be honest. Nice try though!

[5aday]

Lost - totally. I don't have a clue what you are on about.

[5aday]

Swich on Lofty,
Please elaborate.
Was this intended for me or another?

[switch_on_lofty]

Me: "I don't know but I do have the contact details of the future kipper manners somewhere if you want to ask them?"
5aday: "I'm asking"
Me "you are probably too old to be honest"
5aday: "I don't understand".

My point was that if you are 69 yrs old then the P8 manners are unlikely to be interested in having you in any kind of flying role.

[5aday]

OK. I think I got it. I wouldn't want to go back to a twin jet - even if I could.

That was a joke.

At sixty nine I've been retired for fourteen years now.

[camelspyyder]

69?

Not terribly old. I could fly the P8 too - I've been invited by Manning to stay to 60; My reply rhymed with rabbit!

[thunderbird7]

I didn't know kippers had manners...

[5aday]

Switched on Lofty -
I am hoping to be shortlisted for a job as a UAV operator (pilot?)which
could be a really nice litle earner. Should I be interested or not? It could pay for my DB9or finish the overhaul on my ford. It's not really military so I guess I won't need any manners, something I'm not really famous for anyway.
Fly me to the moon, and let me play amongst the stars............

[brakedwell]

I flew Ansons on the Coastal Command Communications Flight and B737/200 with Air Europe. Does that qualify me
:8

[Heathrow Harry]

right now Ansons would be a reasonable stand-in until the P-8's arrive

better than nothing at all

[switch_on_lofty]

5aday: "I am hoping to be shortlisted for a job as a UAV operator (pilot?)which
could be a really nice little earner. Should I be interested or not?"
I'm somewhat honoured that you ask my opinion on your career plans. Is that the Zephyr?
The real question (assuming that you are offered the job) is whether it will improve your life/lifestyle. I assume that you don't really need the money, why not just sell the ford/DB to pay for the other? You can only drive one car at a time and you could always get a bus pass for when it breaks down.
Personally I'm at a career crossroads and could have gone down the UAV route but decided that it's all that I don't like about flying (being indoors, planning, looking at screens and potentially killing people from x miles away) with none of the good stuff (the view, other aircrew, travel).

[Flying Wild]

To answer the OP who I think has made a sensible suggestion(!) I don't know but I do have the contact details of the future kipper manners somewhere if you want to ask them?
How about if you pose the idea to them and let us know what they say...?!

[Yellow Sun]

To try to get some sort of perspective on things, the Nimrod went out of service in 2010 and the P8 is due to arrive 2018. Given that the first priority will be to train regular crew and attain operational capability it would be most unlikely that there would be any capacity for training reservists before 2020 at the very very earliest. By that time any potential Auxiliaries would be 10 years away from role and for flight deck at least, their previous experience might be of very limited value. So, realistically, we are in looking at Auxiliaries with no role experience.

Now a pilot with no role experience but current on the 737-800 would clearly not require DS 1-12 + L1-8 (in old money) but some element of differences training and say 4 simulator sessions to thoroughly cover SOPs. However how to deliver applied training, both theoretical and simulated and airborne would present a considerable problem.

Most of the discussion relating to duty limits for civil licence holders has centred on flying hour availability. However I would foresee cumulative duty hours\period and mandatory days off being a more limiting factor. To overcome this is would be necessary to negotiate release for a 4-6 week periods. There would be little or no option of positioning to Lossie on a Friday night for a quick sim and flight over the weekend then back down south to pick an early Belfast rotation on the Monday morning.

Some posters have asked how the Air National Guard do it? Probably a better question is "How did the USN Reserve do it?" Although my experience is very old, a analogous situation still exists. The reserve squadrons had much older equipment. Basic P3Bs when the front line had the P3C update 3. Think Shackleton compared with Nimrod MR2. Consequently they expected much less of their reserve units and they would be tasked accordingly. It was a numbers game and we have never had the resource to play.

At the end of the day one has to ask "What would be the increased benefit to the service to have auxiliaries fulfilling some flying roles in maritime force?"

I have not even touched on the transferability of qualifications. I really would not wish to open that can of worms even though as a Nimrod QFI I had to complete all the ATPL exams except Perf A.

YS