Bad news after GA crash - 2 RAF Pilots

[ditchvisitor]

Awful news

Two RAF pilots killed in north Yorkshire after attempting 'crash landing' in field - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-raf-pilots-killed-north-7872593)

RIP Fellas

[NutLoose]

:( RIP guys,

I worked on that one years ago, such a tragedy.

[Rigga]

Such a pity. RIP.
I recall that the T67C had some handling issues. I wonder if the M had similar issues? Either way, these guys seem to have had the worst of luck.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

RIP.

Duncs

[Above The Clouds]

Condolences to all families involved.

[Ken Scott]

Some of the tabloid coverage of this sad event is a bit inflammatory:

Tucano planes are used by the RAF to perform displays at airshows and also to train jet pilots.



Others have mentioned 'stunt flying' and seek to make a link to the Shoreham crash. But then I guess there's not much journalistic interest in 'two die in crash, no one else involved'. It's a pity though that they feel the need to stir up controversy over a tragic accident.

RIP chaps.

[pontifex]

I flew the Firefly extensively as a civil FI following time as a tp. This was in the days when students were given realistic instruction in unusual attitude recovery. I have lost count of the number of times that my students were capable of recovering from the most extreme flight conditions (with the exception of inverted spinning - expressly banned by the release to service). In no case did I ever experience any problems or delay in the aircraft being returned to a normal flying attitude and IAS when traditional and correct handling measures were used. I believe it unlikely that two Tucano QFIs would have mishandled the machine to destruction.

p.s. I am also familiar with the Tucano as I did the initial trials before it was selected.

[Hueymeister]

But what appears to be skin de-lamination and separation from the lower wing surface on the starboard wing is very disturbing.

That may well be from hitting something?

[CoffmanStarter]

Gents ... Out of respect for the deceased ... Let's not preempt the work of the AAIB.

[Hueymeister]

Chipmunkstartingmechanism.

Concur.

[jayteeto]

Coffman, mull of kintyre/Glasgow etc etc. I'm afraid rumour networks are akin to this

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

The police have now released the names of the two young men who died in this tragedy. It is a difficult time for all involved. Thoughts are with family, friends and all on the squadron.

Their whole, bright futures ahead of them. Rest In Peace.

[Avtur]

Guys/Girls(Mods),

Can we maybe set a standard on this site for what is and what is not allowed to be posted regarding accidents: This is the Nth post relating to a tragic accident in the 18 years I have been a member of Pprune where someone wants to report/speculate on the cause on an accident/incident, and where someone else immediately wants to restrain or silence them. We all get that the AAIB, NTSB, TSB, et al, are the authority on such findings once known, but this is a rumour network where such conversation, whether wanted or not, is actually quite healthy and provokes conversation and some hard-fact discussion.

Perhaps the Mods could decide once and for all on this topic, as I am now bored of the "stop speculating- wait for the official report" auto-response that seems to be generated within seconds of these postings. Either embargo entirely these posts or allow full discussion. For those who don't like this; there is the choice not to respond to them; and I do get that there are some personal connections (I have several to those previously posted), but have bitten my tongue.

I am not trying to provoke or be insensitive, but just I am just becoming bored with this regular automatic response to any incident that is broadcast on this site. The realist in me however, knows this request will be ignored/ridiculed and I will continue to be bored by the same arguments going forward.

Had to say this; sorry!

[Mach the Knife]

. I believe it unlikely that two Tucano QFIs would have mishandled the machine to destruction.

They were Not QFIs

[The Old Fat One]

RIP to the two young guys, thoughts with the families for their tragic loss.

Also Avtur, very well said. Learning from accidents is a vital component of flight safety (none more so than in GA, and this is a GA accident).

Respectful, professional, sensible and informed discussion is a must. Throughout the investigative process and beyond.

It's the MODs job to police out of order and uniformed trolls, and everybody's job to ignore them.

[Capt Scribble]

Agreed Avtur. Those who do not want to read rumours would be better staying away from a rumour network. It is a modern phenomenon to be offended on behalf of others, indeed, our Government has legislated to make it so in law in certain situations.

[Mystic Greg]

Devastating news. The RAF has lost two bright young officers. Condolences to their families.

[3 bladed beast]

Avtur - I agree with you mate.

Perhaps we could just make this PPNE if rumours, discussions and thoughts are to be stopped.

No one has named any names in this thread, no one has been insulted and it's all been respectful.

RIP guys.

[Onceapilot]

Very sad for all closely involved. :(
Avtur, as far as asking for a more liberal attitude towards reporting such sad events, I think you are onto a loser. In this particular occasion, I posted on the GA thread that the reg of the a/c was visible on press coverage of the crash. Funny old thing, my post was removed . I guess PuN might be more apt (Professional uninformed Network)?

OAP

[JulieAndrews]

RIP
AAIB are pretty busy at the moment.
My thoughts are also with the inspectors, I often wonder why they do it but grateful they do......

[Wander00]

Only once been on a crash site shortly after the event, and would not wish to repeat the experience. Hats off to the guys and girls who do it as part of their regular working life, and thereby make it safer for the rest of us.

[airpolice]

Wander00, I know what you mean.

Jaguar into a tree near Boulmer 1977. We were on site within an hour of impact, it was all still very ripe.

A truly horrible situation. I had to photograph the remains before they were bagged. We were at it for an hour before we were sure what we were dealing with. We found a rail saying "Rear Seat" & "Lossie" so we knew it was a Jaguar, then we found a second right hand, so knew both seats had been occupied.

Gathering evidence, treating the remains with dignity and staying calm. Balancing act.

Happy to never need to do that again.

[Haraka]

Years ago ( and they might still) the ambulance crews in London had a "big five" of stomach tighteners, ranging from attending childbirth, through RTA's, "ripe" remains, suicides etc. up to the top one: recovery of a body from under a tube train.
For them and the Police I have the utmost respect in their having to deal with such issues as being almost routine in their tasking.

[Madbob]

Airpolice


On July 29th 1977 both 226 OCU crew on board T.2 XX148/M were killed when the aircraft crashed near Whittingham, Northumberland. They were Flt Lt Hinchliff and Fg Off R F Graham. RIP.


MB

[sharpend]

I knew Taff very well as I had previously served with him on 3 Sqn 226 OCU. I was the Effects Officer assigned to assist Dee his widow and attended his funeral on a dank Scottish afternoon.

[andyy]

I wonder if the aircraft is one of the ex Babcock DEFTS fleet that was sold off about 9-10 years ago?

[Haraka]

I wonder if the aircraft is one of the ex Babcock DEFTS fleet that was sold off about 9-10 years ago]
According to " G INFO" . Yes.

[airpolice]

MadBob & Sharpend, that's the one. As I recall it was a Friday, my girlfriend was coming down to stay for the weekend.

I only got involved as I was one of only two members of the station camera club, the other was with me when we passed the fire engine going the other way as we left town. On arriving at camp a few minutes later, the Snowdrops were already looking for us, and suggested that we make our way to Whittingham crossroads, armed with as much film as we could find, and photograph everything in situ.

I had seen deceased people before, funerals and road accidents, but nothing could have prepared me for the carnage.

We were told later that as part of an FRA, the profile called for a high speed run at 250 feet, climb while inverting, to 500, look ahead, still inverted, to see an IP (pretty much to confirm the NAVWASS Position) and roll wings level as the aircraft descended back to 250.

According to eye witnesses, sitting outside the pub and well used to seeing that same profile, at that point, the Jag was confronted with a flock of birds just as it got to the top of the inverted roll.

The aircraft pulled, then rolled nearly wings level. At that point the first seat came out but with a large -A and sink rate to match, the aircraft was almost in the ground by the time the seat cleared the canopy.

One 'chute did deploy, but only just clear of the airframe and not the tree line. The other occupant was still in the aircraft at impact. The subsequent explosion made a crater, which I was still able to find find ten years later when in the area.

This wasn't just a crash, it was a loss of colleagues. Although I didn't know the crew, they wore the same uniform as us, and had perished doing their part of the job that we were all paid for.

We handled the remains as we would have wanted ours to be treated. There is a grim dark humour to getting through such tasks, fortified by the knowledge that the deceased are well out of it, and things can't get any worse for them. A bin bag is still a bin bag.

Thinking back, we had no information on armament or pyrotechnic impact of a recently crashed and still smouldering wreck. There was no H&S brief on unexploded weapons, and a real urgency to photograph and recover remains asap.

Once the light had faded, having handed over all of the film to the RAF Police, we went straight to Alnmouth train station to collect my girlfriend. I had to explain that we were at the end of a non standard day, and that things were going to be less than representative of a normal weekend at Boulmer.


I don't suppose we will ever know why the Jag went into that field, and we may never know why the Firefly ended up as it did at the weekend.

Sometimes we just never find out. I think it is healthy to look at possible causes, but very unfair to suggest that Pilot Error is likely, simply because there is no evidence of mechanical failure or other interference. When an airframe is effectively destroyed, evidence is going to be lost.

To issue a warning about not instinctively pulling up while inverted, well that might be handy. But to decide, on the basis of people who are sitting outside a pub on a sunny afternoon, drinking, that the pilot pulled to avoid a bird, forgetting he was upside down, that's a stretch.

A great many beers were consumed in the bar later, by us, and by the crash guard who assisted in the tagging & bagging, but I don't recall any of us getting drunk, we just drank the beer and felt lost. I couldn't find the words to describe to Catherine what we had seen that afternoon, but I'm sure she got the idea. Almost 39 years later, I still remember some of the details with horrible clarity.

[Simplythebeast]

Amazed that the local RAF camera club were instructed by RAF Police to go to a crash site and take as many photographs as they could.
Fancy sending anyone into a crash site where you didnt have any idea even what aircraft you were dealing with and what live armament/seat components may be scattered about.
No proper scale measuring equipment to photograph along with any wreckage/remains.
Can't imagine anything less professional. I bet the Coroner was well impressed.
I had left the RAF In 1976 and thought they had photography sections and slightly more professional forensic capability. How things have changed.

[airpolice]

Simplythebeast, we didn't have a station photographer.

It was us or nothing, and time was against us. I understood the decision to send us came from SHQ, and was conveyed by the RAF Police as an instruction, which I was not inclined to dispute.

[Simplythebeast]

Nowadays time wouldnt be a factor. Body recovery will take as long as it takes. Much more important to have proper forensic quality evidence than "all the pictures you can take".
But we live in a different era I suppose.

[Chugalug2]

airpolice:-
I don't suppose we will ever know why the Jag went into that field, and we may never know why the Firefly ended up as it did at the weekend.

Sometimes we just never find out. I think it is healthy to look at possible causes, but very unfair to suggest that Pilot Error is likely, simply because there is no evidence of mechanical failure or other interference.

You have succinctly put your finger on the difference between these two tragic accidents, one military and investigated by the operator/regulator/investigator, the other civilian where operator, regulator, and investigator are all separate from, and independent of each other. The first arrangement is now surrounded by scandal and cover up, but the second will ensure a professional and thorough investigation that we may have confidence in to ensure the primary aim, which is always to prevent a recurrence. That at least should bring some comfort to the bereaved loved ones to whom we can but offer our deepest sympathy.

[Rigga]

Nicely stated, Chug.
I've seen a few whipped frames after going through trees and bushes. Not nice.

[The Old Fat One]

Followed this link from the thread in PF on this accident and thought, as it appears to be from an authoritative source, that it would interest many of the pilots on here.

I know nothing of this type, so if it is irrelevant for some reason, I apologise.

https://robrobinette.com/T-3A_Firefly.htm

He comments on the accident in this thread on his site, so it obviously being kept up to date.

[50+Ray]

TOFO
Strongly suggest you disregard anything written on that website. I have over 4700 hours on the Firefly, instructing RAF, RN, AAC, & RBAF, and I do not believe the aircraft ever killed anyone. Poor training, or lack of, and incompetence can cause death in any airframe. As the old saying goes - even the family dog will bite if you kick him often enough!
With well over 6000 military Instructional hours I can state that the Firefly 260 was the best EFT trainer I ever flew, but like any other aircraft a flying accident can be your last.
Ray

[The Old Fat One]

^^ I have absolutely no insights to offer and I know nothing on the subject. I posted it for information value for others. If I were an "interested party" I'm not sure I would "disregard all" given...

a. How complete and detailed is the account.
b. The CV of the author in aviation terms, which is frankly pretty impressive.

Given that the guy is willing to document and publicise it all, it would be a stretch to believe any of it is made up, would it not?

Are you saying his account is untruthful? Or is it matter of different types?

I totally bow to your knowledge and experience on type of course...but may I be impertinent enough to ask a question.

During your 4700 hours on type was normal practice for you and your students to wear a parachute?

Also this quote from your post....

Poor training, or lack of, and incompetence can cause death in any airframe.

....kind of opens up more questions in view of the nature of this specific tragic accident.

But not for me. I'll bow out. I don't wish to be accused of morbid curiosity and there are many others far better placed than me to have an informed discussion on this matter.

Thanks for your insights.

[airpolice]

50+Ray, that website is about the T3a not the Firefly.


The US Air Force's T-3A was derived from the Slingsby Aviation T67M260 Firefly. Slingsby is an England based company which has been building small aircraft since the 1970's. The T-3A has several differences from the T67M260 including the addition of air conditioning and a smaller rudder.





I decided to weigh the aircraft anyway. I put a T-3 on the scales with full wing tanks and oil, plus me and a cadet in the seats with our parachutes on with the canopy closed--exactly the situation for a normal takeoff. The aircraft was scaled inside a hangar with a known level floor. The weights at all three wheels were taken and the numbers crunched. We were over two inches rear of the rear CG limit! I tried to push this info up the chain of command but because the aircraft wasn't leveled to Slingsby's specification (whatever that was) no one believed the numbers. I know that leveling the aircraft will move the CG but there's no way it was going to shift the CG two inches forward--you'd have to stand the aircraft on it's freakin' nose to do that. The bottom line is we were flying the aircraft with an extremely aft center of gravity and no one wanted to admit it.


Big and Small Rudder

Some T67 Fireflies have a "big rudder" while all T-3A's have a "small rudder." Here's a pic of the two rudders for comparison:



https://robrobinette.com/images/T67_Big_Rudder.jpg

https://robrobinette.com/images/T-3A_Rudder.jpg






Note how bottom edge of the T67 "big rudder" (left photo) follows the angle of the bottom of the empennage and so has about two inches of rudder below the trailing edge position light. The T-3A on the right has a smaller rudder that angles up to the position light.

If we estimate the bottom length of the rudder to be 14 inches that gives us: (14 x 2) / 2 = 14 square inches. Fourteen square inches of additional rudder that's in the best possible location--mostly at the trailing edge below the elevator in clean airstream during a spin. If I owned a T67 with the small rudder I'd look into replacing it with the larger rudder.


I'm not sure that everyone reading this gets the differences between the T67 & the T3, but it's interesting that the crash aircraft from last week has a small rudder.

[tmmorris]

The stats he quotes don't take account of the mission profile of the different aircraft. You can't compare C152 to T67 as the latter will do a lot of aeros/spinning.

There's a thread in Private Flying on this one...

[tmmorris]

I'm not sure that everyone reading this gets the differences between the T67 & the T3, but it's interesting that the crash aircraft from last week has a small rudder.

Of course it does - it's a T67C with the smaller engine. The T67M has a bigger engine so needed a bigger rudder area.

[SFCC]

Nonsense. It was a T67M mk2

[airpolice]

I think the point of the USAF Instructor, is that the effect of the larger rudder area was required regardless of the engine.

[tmmorris]

SFCC you're right, as someone else explained in another thread. Sorry.

[Rallye Driver]

The 72 Squadron Association held its annual reunion at North Weald over the weekend. On Sunday morning a four-ship missing man formation of four Tucanos from Linton-on-Ouse passed the Airfield on their way to a memorial flypast for one of the students at Loughton.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/YakRider034/Tucanos%201-1000_zpsgto147dd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/YakRider034/Tucanos%202-1000_zpsyn4x5usp.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/YakRider034/Tucanos%203-1000_zpssgczzmvi.jpg

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Hopefully this will work. My son has forwarded this link to me, he is currently at Linton and a good friend of both of these young men. Jo was looking to be running the Edinburgh Marathon anyway, but last week her whole life derailed. I am not expecting everyone to donate but can I ask that you at least click the link and share on facebook.

A truly tragic event happened that day, let's help in whatever way we can.
Thank you
SWB

https://www.justgiving.com/Jo-Scouler1?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=fundraisingpage&utm_content=Jo-Scouler1&utm_campaign=pfp-share

[The Old Fat One]

Done and done.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Thank you.
Incredible to see this is up at £5200 already.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Update: This weekend Jo completed the Edinburgh Marathon with a lot of (surprise) support from guys on the squadron who travelled up from Linton.

Well done Jo, achieving a £12,000+ boost to the Benevolent Fund is no mean feat and at a very difficult time too.

Total respect to you young lady.:D