Overtime anybody ???

[Numpo-Nigit]

Now that Prospect has dropped its long-standing blanket opposition to ATCOs working overtime, you'd think that NATS management would be rushing to agree appropriate terms and conditions.

Apparently not, as it appears that NATS cannot afford to pay any staff to do voluntary overtime.

That must come as good news to all those aircraft operators with expensive hardware sitting on the ground waiting for slots through UK airspace where the promulgated reason for the restriction is SE82 STAFFING.

[crowman]

As NATS enroute charges are levied equally whether a flight is on time or delayed for 3 hours it is not in NATS financial interests to employ a dozen controllers on overtime to reduce delays if these flights will subsequently operate later. It makes more financial sense for NATS to operate with the minimum amount of controllers on duty and to hell with the delays.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE ECONOMICS OF THE MADHOUSE!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It's no use complaining about being overworked and fatigued and then wanting to do overtime! I've never worked overtime in my life and would never ever consider it. Being at home with the family is six million times more important than earning an extra few quid.

[Roger That]

Crowman,

Not so :eek: Look at Condition 21 of the NERL licence ( http://www.caa.co.uk/erg/ergdocs/nerllicence.pdf if you can get it to work) and you will see that that NERL (NATS) is exposed to financial penalty if it's performance does not meet certain criteria specified by the regulator [ERG] i.e. a proportion of it's income cannot be recovered and must be "factored back" into the charge formula in future years.

I think the performance targets set by ERG are that average delay per flight must be 1.21 minutes of less (reducing year on year to 1.16 over the first 5 year "control period") and the financial exposure is about £0.19 per CSU (chargeable service unit) rising after 2 years to remain steady at £0.49 .

As income from each flight represents the "sum" of CSUs x distance flown x weight index, the effect of having to reduce your charging rate (by even 19 p per CSU) multiplies into quite a large amount. I think the overall "cost" of this is capped at between £2m (£0.19) rising to £5+m (£0.49) per year.

As NATS' delay per flight figure is likely to be above this value (inevitable but for reasons I won't go into) NATS controllers do indeed have good reasons to minimise delays (if it helps, that's why the CE said that everyone (not just the "overheads" in the company) had the opportunity to help save cash post-9/11).

Hope this "simple" :D explantion helps but if you need more - quote this to your watch manager and ask them to explain it :D :D :D :D :D

RT

[Undercover]

Still doesn't address the excellent question of how ATCOs who've been complaining of being over-worked and stressed out for many a month could now complain that they're not allowed to work MORE?!? :confused:

[Bigears]

Roger That, Maybe a good case for NERL to be further split with each area of Operations a separate company! ScACC, OAC, MACC & TC would then be able to attract investment <stir stir>

[120.4]

I believe the union should continue to object to overtime. The truth is that we are understaffed and working ever increasing traffic levels (Heathrow new record 1360 on 21st June). The effect of this over a period of time is/will be significant cumulative fatigue and is not in the interests of safety or quality of life.

To now turn around and ask to be allowed to do more not only flies in the face of our supposed safety culture, it makes us look greedy. Neither does it encourage management to address the issue of staff shortage in the longer term.

I agree with HD. Family, home and golf course (in that order) are far more important than a few quid. We might also think of the impact this could have on length of retirement. Not me!

Point 4


:)

[250 kts]

Numpo.

Where do you get the impression that Prospect has dropped its' opposition to OT. As far as I'm aware the situation has not changed at all.

NATS can offer OT but ONLY at the staff handbook rate and in exceptional circumstances. Simply being short of staff is not a good reason.

Of course we can't stop members from doing it,but let's just say that it would be pretty naive for anyone to do it in the present climate.

I understand that there is another pay meeting next week with the onus firmly on NATS to come up with a realistic offer or they are fully aware that industrial action is a very real possibility from early September.

[120.4]

But the, as yet, unanswered question is:

What do we consider to be a "reasonable offer"???? I don't understand how the union can negotiate unless it knows the answer to that.

Point 4

[Cavemonster]

On the subject of delays and statistics....

....bear in mind that we can do our bit to help NATS meet its delay target by using MDIs rather than application of a Flow Regulation at every opportunity

MDIs don't count as NATS-attributable delays. Flow regs do count.

If you need to sort out a large peak of traffic and you're a good chap then try and encourage everyone to manage the situation with MDIs.

:)

[radar707]

MDI's whilst wonderful things for you area chappies, cause no end of problems for us at the airfields.
Queue at the hold trying to juggle them around to get the right sector splits.
Let the Belgians sort it out, that way if anybody asks, it's a slot and we'll speak to Brussels to sort it out.
MDI's mean we take the blame on the RT. Sorry the Sector can't take you for another 10 mins!!!

[Big Nose1]

Sorry but this thread is about overtime. HD response is absolutely correct, anyone who prostitutes themselves, and their colleagues, by working overtime at any of NATS busy units just to make a fast buck should be ashamed of themselves.

MDI`s, delays, reasonable offers etc....start a new thread.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Two points -

1. my information came from a Prospect rep at NERC so I have to assume that the assertion is true.

2. in no way am I suggesting that folks should work overtime. My views are similar to those of HD. My point was to highlight the apparent anomaly that in 2001 NATS were desperate to get people to work extra days at LATCC (in some cases offering the earth), but now that it might have a greater benefit (in terms of opening additional NERC sectors to reduce delays) they have gone very quiet. I'm sure the airlines are still unaware just how desperate things are in terms of staffing, both now and for the foreseeable future.

[250 kts]

The OT deal agreed for last Summer was purely to get NERC open.

Management knew that with OCT going on thay could not maintain service provision and that also a slippage to O date would occur if a deal was not done. The negotiators were far from happy to do the deal but considered that a further slip was not good for the workforce as so many were by then "down south". Also wouldn't it have been wonderfful for NATS to blame another slip on the union??

So thie deal was agreed with a pretty good daily rate but even then the take up rate was not good for operational OT, but much better by members of the NTT doing non-op OT.

The deal finished at the end of OCT and has not been mentioned since. I consider that ANYONE doing it now even if it were for just handbook rates would be seriously undermining the chances of maintaining a sensible WP agreement. There is no doubt that the AG would like to renegotiate this and we would be shooting ourselves with a machine gun if we were to agree to OT.

On a slightly different matter. I hear that a former southbank "troubleshooter" has been sent to LACC to try to sort out the problems. He has been asking how people would like to do ,wait for it---- A 12 HOUR NIGHTSHIFT FROM 2200 TO 1000 WITH A 5 HOUR SLEEP FROM 0000 TO 0500 GUARANTEED :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

This just goes to show how desperate they are at present and there's still only 2.2% on the table for this year. We must not give ANYTHING away at all.

I also hear that the Chief Operating Officer( Cheese & Ham) wanted all the SVCs cancelled as we can't afford the instructors. Aren't we suposed to be short of staff and need new people valid asap?????????????- the short sightedness is mind blowing.

NN go back to the rep and check that info.

[crowman]

Well, in the light of recent negotiations, Numpo was right, maybe a month early but he was right!! Our union have dropped their opposition to overtime and rather belatedly NATS have taken up the offer. Thoughts please?

[Direct HALIFAX]

Although the glossy circular I got from Prospect says that the deal is until end 2003, and will not act as any precedent, the fear is that overtime will eventually be introduced as part of any new WP package and we will all be expected to do it.

Thin end of the wedge comes to mind, and why should we give up our days off anyway. Remember not 12 months ago Mr CC stated that there was NO shortage of ATCOs for Swanwick - indeed there was an extra 50 in the system.

If we do this, who gets their 6 figure bonus next year ?

[Direct HALIFAX]

Looks like the money will convince the younger element at LACC to accept the offer - a sad day if it happens.

[BwatchGRUNT]

Direct HALIFAX.....what planet are you on???? Its the younger generation at LACC that will have to put up with this for the rest of our careers, I for one am fighting for every 0.1% as the difference to my retirement salary and pension in 30+ will be considerable.

Is it not the 'older guys and girls' who have had enough and are just marking time until their BIG DAY arrives that don't want to fight and will probably BLOW for us 'young uns' the best chance we will ever have to improve our pay and working conditions??

That is, if our so called negotiators do not give everything away first. How can a couple of people speak on behalf of the rest of the union reps without discussion first????

HOW MUCH LONGER BEFORE THE ATCO'S GET TO NEGOTIATE THEIR OWN SECTIONAL CLAIM WITHOUT THE REST JUMPING ON THE BANDWAGON????:confused: :mad: :confused: :mad:

[Direct HALIFAX]

My post regarding the intentions of the 'younger element' of LACC was based on my discussions with some of them.

I hope they are a minority and you are right.

I can usually be found on Planet LAKES.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Regardless of age, I think we ALL have to worry. I believe that there was a management meeting at NERC today to discuss various issues "that the union won't like". Whatever it is (combined T and P at certain times of day, three hour positions, ab-initios doing planner only, etc, etc) they will push harder and harder as they perceive that ATCOs as a group can be fobbed-off with "half-a-crown to go to the pictures" instead of a reasonable recompense for a difficult job.

[Direct HALIFAX]

Numpo

If you are correct, then surely that's a change to the current Working Practices so must be subject to a negotiation with the Union.

Were they invited, or was the meeting a starter-for-ten by mgt.