EK - AAR meeting, sensible points to make.

[helen-damnation]

So, we all have our thoughts on why there is a problem, who caused it etc etc.

If you had been invited, what would you tell him he needs to do and offer (not interested in the "tell him to ........ off" brigade, start your own thread).

Some points for me:

Substantial pay rise on basic to improve the provident fund.

Reduced overtime trigger point.

Education payments to 21 in line with Qatar.

Managers promoted on ability to manage.

2nd ALT.

Part time rosters.

Continue....

[alwayzinit]

H-D
In just about everywhere else on the Globe, in industry when a company has major retention problems, brand "slip", bad press etc etc, the person at the top is changed along with his cronies.

Cannot see that happening here imho.

AAR's opinion of those who fly "his" jets is well documented. Opinions that negative and extreme are deeply set and unlikely to be altered. There is no trust or mutual respect now, hence the train will continue on its current path until the "driver" is replaced. :ouch:

[ExDubai]

In just about everywhere else on the Globe, in industry when a company has major retention problems, brand "slip", bad press etc etc, the person at the top is changed along with his cronies.

After a failed attempt to "get ship back on track"

But you're right that won't happen.

[Trader]

80 hour month roster again. Pay OT (at an approriate rate) till crewed to a level where that can happen.

Tweak the rostering system so it works with more choices. Should be no issue when the hours are back down.

Credit for all duties - sim, gs and leave.

Fix leave. Credit for leave so they are more than just days off. PROPER credit for leave.

Pay increase.

etc

[AlanPardew]

30% pay increase

[in freedom]

not sure why you opened a second thread on this. Anyway, if you go through my detailed post in the other thread I think the main questions for EK management must be:

- Do you think flying 43% more than a Lufthansa pilot is permanently safe ?
- Do you think flying 43% more than a Lufthansa pilot is healthy ?
- How do you think our families are coping with this situation ?
- How can you be surprised that we want to escape ?

And the questions from the big boss to AAR should be:

- If I am more than 1,500 pilots short today what do I do if the authorities start to hold me to the same standards as all the other big airlines ?
- Do we hire 1,500 pilots over night ? - or -
- Do we cut the programme by 30% ?
- How much is your brilliant idea going to cost me to order airplanes but stop hiring drivers in 2013?
- Are you the right person to fix an airline that wasn't broken before your derailed it ?

[ekwhistleblower]

This would be my dream sheet but I haven't been invited. Constructive debate leading to a better company and a safer organisation.

Working Practices:
1. Credit returned to productivity scheme for leave and ground duties
2. Productivity level returned to 84 Hours / 31 days
3. Long term commitment to increase crewing levels to avoid unnecessary overtime
4. Sign-on time to match actual on duty time
5. Job Share/Part-time available after a certain number of years service

Safety:
6. FRMS to actually be implemented.
a. 6 years it still isn't a living system
b. Fatigue is a long-term issue but the EK SAFE model is short-term
c. Fatigue reduction measures must be implemented and not cancelled due commercial expediency
d. Flight Safety to be a truly separate entity from Fleet
e. Fatigue to be dealt with by Safety, and not coercive Fleet managers

7. Real no penalty safety reporting system to remove fear factor
8. Recognition that errors are made and honest errors should not be punished

Remuneration:
9. Increase to basic pay to reflect cost of living increases since 2008
10. Recognition that the increment is contractual and not a pay-rise
11. Productivity payment increased to reflect drafted for duty outside of contracted hours (2 1/2 x Pay minimum) and fiscally punitive to company as encouragement to resolve crewing levels

Management:
12. SVP+ to be able to communicate upwards directly to board level to raise serious concerns.
13. Managers/Commanders given authority to act rather than just accountability and responsibility for when it goes wrong
14. Cross department communication encouraged

In a nutshell, "put the sticks away and buy some carrots!"

[helen-damnation]

in freedom

Because yours is not the only opinion!

I'm hoping that someone who is going may put these points to AAR.

[A320CaptDav]

I don''t mean to sound negative.. this is all business strategy
They already have a preplanned of action...having the meeting is a mean to justify that they consulted the pilots before initiating their changes.

Their plan would most likely be an increase in pay ( keep in mind money is how they buy your time ), and better work rules. They are not gonna reduce your productivity in anyway.

All this is taking place only caz of ppl leaving to go back to their 'first world ' countries...had the airlines not been hiring ....nothing would have changed

[in freedom]

HD, I don't claim to have the only opinion. I would have just preferred to keep the discussion in one thread.
I assume that no one who attends the meeting can truly speak his mind unless he is leaving anyway. In Dubai there is no concept of free speech or a constructive dialogue.
I see this meeting as nothing more than a first crack in AAR's absolute rule. The effects of what he has done to the company are becoming too obvious.
But it's good to share on this forum what we would like to say in the meeting. And sometimes our thoughts here end up sort of in the right place ;-)

[BobDole]

It's all going to be a scam anyways... First hiccup in the world economy and they will steal anything they "give" and it will be status quo again.

Yelling at the wall will probably have a larger impact.

[north flyer]

CaptDav hit the nail on the head,

EK has a business strategy, they know how many pilots they need and can train, they have no plans to change the working conditions except to get back to 42 of days of non credited vacation and maybe drop the overtime threshold to 84 or 85 hours, the industry average in most parts of the world.

The only thing EK can not figure out is how much, or better said, how little money it will take to stop the bleeding.

AAR can't ask the local pilots this question, they can't leave except to other GCC states, plus their pay and retirement package is different to ours.

AAR can't go to the expat management or training pilots, they live in a different world then the expat line pilots.

AAR has to find out from the expat line pilots how much it will take to buy us off and we can all be bought for some amount of money.

AAR will have these meetings and sit there and listen, but the only thing he will be listening for is a number.

[fatbus]

Does anyone else think this years Profit share meeting will be delayed as they might have to re calculate next years pilot wage package as well as training costs. Also if done in March can it be used as a operating cost in this year. Ie lower the overall profit .. In years past this time of year saw expenses differed til the next financial year.

[helen-damnation]

in freedom

Fair point :ok:

My thought was to keep the thread on one topic with people being able to put in their ideas and keep the other stuff separate.

One further idea; in increase in the number of pay increments. We have a number of folks who are at or nearing the top of the scale.

[Rather Be Skiing]

Well my top three would be:
1) Money
2) Money
3) More money!

I, too, was of the opinion the other 'lifestyle' issues were more important but I have re-evaluated.

For one, in almost 9 years, I have had all 42 days of leave exactly one year. Don't think that will ever change.

At the first fleet forum, JA said two things that gave me pause; pilots don't really do this for the money and Dubai is a great place to live.

EK thinks people are coming here because they desperately want to live here. I know, for me, that is far from the case. Dubai is an ok place but not close to being one of the places in the world I would 'choose' to be. It certainly doesn't earn a 'home town' discount!!

Which also means if I am going to be living somewhere that isn't really where I want to be, then, yes the money is important. I need to prepare for life after this place and I don't get the luxury 'local' pension.

So while the other things are considerations, I think a significant boost to our money is the one thing that might help improve retention and recruitment. That will enable some improvements in the other areas.

[Aluminium shuffler]

RBS, well put!

[Calmcavok]

Money
Rostering
Leave

As RBS said, Dubai isn't high on my list of aspirational places to live either. The fact that it is ok is the reason that I'm here for the money, and not China or Saudi. And the money could be better.

[kcar]

RBS
Throwing money at me, alone, would only make me happy until I've found another job!

[donpizmeov]

So it should be attacked "young ones" style...Dear fascist bully boy, give us our money you b@st@rd.

Should work.

[Kapitanleutnant]

A320CaptDav is correct in my opinion...

EK already has a plan to the pilots to stop the outflow of crew, and this meeting is just a way to show (hollywood style) to mostly media and possibly company minions that they're concerned for your well being.

Don't be naive to think they're looking out for you. When in history has EK ever done something for the complete positive to the pilot??

It's already a done deal whatever it is.... This is just for show.

K

[VLS with ice]

Between 2000 and 2005 there was a massive influx of pilots at EK. Most of them are reaching the 15y service and 50y old mark. A lot of them have started their exit plans. The nr of pilots leaving will only increase in the years to come. If they would like that experience to stay a bit longer there are two things they need to start working on:

Part time work and reverse rostering to outstation of choice, preferably a combination of both? It's a win win option if they work out the nrs. Free up accomodation, save money and happier pilots.....

It's ok to dream.....

[Rather Be Skiing]

RBS
Throwing money at me, alone, would only make me happy until I've found another job!

As true as that is, money is the only tangible thing they can offer. They can promise all the other bits on the wish list but can't deliver most without more crew. If money entices you, me and others to stay longer and helps recruitment, then maybe some of the other issues will start to be sorted.

A bigger deposit in my account is something I can see, everything else they offer will be smoke and mirrors. Since they are far less than trustworthy, hollow promises won't cut it for me. This time next year the discussion will be the same.

[Craggenmore]

Can someone ask for the profit share target to become a rolling profit share target with the limit of 12 months removed.

Therefore once the amount is reachd, something is shared.

[glofish]

The logic is striking:
Too many left, even more are leaving and not enough coming. This leaves the remaining work even harder and incite them to throw in the towel even faster (my case).

They can't ease up on the workload unless they would have to park even more metal on the Sharjah side. Debts and incredible greed, as well as loss of face make this unrealistic. Only recent and tragic events might force some relief upon us.

They can try to throw money at us, to lure us into staying/coming, but again, incredible greed and a vindictive attitude against pilots is a major inhibitor, so don't hold your breath. But at least a substantial increase on all fronts should be on the table simply to make up what they have stolen from us so far.

Reverse rostering would be an interesting incentive, however it might prove challenging for certain destinations, for good and for bad, and the attribution might sparks some ugly battles. I don't give it a chance.

As a short term carrot, i would suggest an increase in ALT/ELT and some cheap, bookable friends tickets for our relatives and friends to come and visit us (bookable more than 3 months in advance and with a healthy contingent). This represents a tiny cost for them and would give us some relief for not getting leave, as with the pathetic rostering standby travel is impossible.

Any babble about intentions to do this and that, any hollow promise that they plan to implement improvements for this and that, that they have already instructed internal Costa-Squatters to apply this and that will fall on deaf ears, because we all perfectly know that it's smoke and mirrors for the greatest part and that implementation will take longer than the decay rate of staying of 90% of us.

Thus NO ONE is interested in any dribble from AAR or other managers.

[Gillegan]

I left 4 1/2 years ago when they began stealing leave. I've had no regrets but as I'm posting here, I'm obviously still interested in the ongoing soap opera (a lot of very close friends are still at EK). I've asked myself, what would it take to get me to consider returning - perhaps a bigger hurdle than recruiting newbies as I'm quite familiar with cynical lying and cheating that have become SOP with EK management.

1. To fix the rostering and get it to something reasonable (long haul rosters really shouldn't average more than 76 hours a month with more being only used for exceptional circumstances) it's going to take BIG BUCKS to attract and retain the numbers they need to staff the expanding fleet to a reasonable monthly roster.

2. Leave: the main reason I left in the first place. If the contract says 42 days, then IT'S 42 DAYS! In just about any other civilized country, they would be dragged into court with no chance of winning for what has become routine and at least 1 block of leave MUST BE at least 28/30 days. It's an expat airline and everyone deserves enough time to get back to their home country for an extended rest. Again, this is going to impinge on manpower so back to point 1.

3. A change in management ethos. The attitude that crew are "lemons to be squeezed" until they are used up and that "if you don't like it - leave" has got to end. While this is most important for retention or for someone considering returning, the word is out on EK and there's just not enough people who would consider going there if they don't have to. For this to happen, it would take 2 people to stand up and acknowledge their part in making this mess, AAR and TC (I refuse to add the "S". IMO he deserves a lot of the blame for this mess. A micromanager like him can't claim he didn't know what was going on. He deserves much of the credit for what EK has done well but also much of the blame for the mess made since he took over.). I honestly don't see much chance of this happening.

Things like extra ALT's would be nice but are band aids on a gaping wound. Crap like bumping people on their ALT's would be fixed with point 3. When it started happening under SMF's watch, he fixed it right away. If I sound a little bitter, it's because I went to EK with the plan of staying until retirement. My life since leaving is infinitely better than my last few years there but it hasn't been without significant difficulties that could have been avoided but for the greed and dishonesty that has become commonplace.

Unfortunately, it appears to me that with Dubai once again in silly mode (how much is that stupid canal through Jumeira costing them?), and with EK as their only cash cow, their hands may be effectively tied anyway.

[Desert Camel]

- 75/80 hours maximum, with credit for leave, sim and all training days, and look at fatigue issues.
- Bidding system with many more choices than 5.
- 42 days (no less and as per contract) leave a year.
- Salary increase, but the main thing is a major increase in the productivity hourly rate.
- Better medical benefits, school allowance, ALT/ELT/other tickets, accomodation, etc...
- Overall change of attitude towards staff.

One can dream.....

[Osprey55]

All the points that are being made are valid, but... What we really need is a voice.

The pilots need an association that can present valid and pertinent information about the needs of the pilot group to management in a coherent and ordered manner. Of course, I'm well aware that unions are not legal here, but this would not be a union, it would be a collective channel that could present the opinions of the majority to the company in a constructive way.

Here we are trying to tell a bunch of un-named select few what we want through an anonymous and limited forum that most don't read anyway. But what one person wants may not be in line with what the majority wants. A pilot association could colate opinions and ideas and present them to the company in an unbiased way. The company would hear the views of the pilots without one or two individuals having to stick their necks out. Once a proper channel is established the true issues can be addressed in a far more meaningful way as the company would know that the opinions presented represent the views of the majority. Not only this, but the company would have to pay attention because they would be aware that we are all aware of what they are being told rather than the current situation where we aren't invited to the meeting and don't know exactly what is being discussed. Why should my job conditions be affected by a secret meeting that I'm not invited to and haven't even been asked what is important to me?

We are not going to have a chance to have meetings like this very often... Ask for what will allow us to address our issues on an ongoing basis rather than just this one-off stab in the dark. We need to set up a collective voice for the pilot group. And then... we can address the real issues.

[Trigger Happy]

Great post, your on the right track IMHO. I've worked in countries where Unions are strictly forbidden but also experienced first hand how a pilot "Association" has been able to support the pilot body successfully. Best of luck guys.

[trimotor]

Setting up a union or association? A naive suggestion. No chance: even when the EPC/APC was being formed it took quite a bit of convincing the powers that be that it wasn't a front for a union...