Best GA IFR routing for EGLM-EGPK (Novice FAA IR needs help!)

[N Reg Aztec]

Folks,

Trying to draw on your expertise as an FAA IR pilot struggling to come to terms with the UK system (and the missing class E airspace! ).

I'm trying to plan a flight from EGLM (White Waltham) to Prestwick and then on to Dublin in a PA23 (Aztec).

Could anyone suggest a routing that would be acceptable (or is likely to be given) if I want to make this flight IFR with an appropriate service (not FIS) if the weather restricts me to FL80 or maybe FL100 if I'm lucky.

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone - I've always found the service I receive to be excellent - I just get worried that I'll have a repeat of a recent experience (IFR from EBKT- EGLM and cleared all the way only to be dropped out to 2400' and given FIS about 10 before BIG while still in IMC - brown trousers situation!)
I just want to do what I can to avoid that happenning again.

Any and all help appreciated.

[Captain Stable]

I'd suggest COWLY A1 NGY

PIK-DUB is TRN P600 DUB

[MacDoris]

As for going North to Prestwick, if you intending to go airways what we tend to do is join you on track to WCO or DTY depending on how busy the LTMA is and then get you on A2 or A20 (i think) depending on you requested level, you will then get a radar control service and transferred to Manchester further north. Coming back into Waltham appears to be the problem as when you get into the WCO area due TMA traffic we have to drop you outside CAS and usuall unable to offer much of a service outside due to workload. I know Brize give services to aircraft routeing down the west of DTY but i dont know if they are able to give you a service as far as Waltham?
No idea if this is any use at all???
If you are intending to remain outside the majority of the block of airspace north of WW at FL100 is Class A and busy.
At FL80 there are bits where you will just skirt underneath.

[chiglet]

At POL you would leave CAS and work Pennine Radar on a RAS/RIS depending on tfc, and rejoin CAS at DCS.
At FL100 your route could be [NAS] DTY SAPCO TNT POL TLA NGY
all in CAS;)
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[The Fat Controller]

After POL northbound, file A2 to DCS, NGY, TRN @ FL100 and you stay in CAS until Prestwick Radar vector you for the ILS.
We at Scottish would have absolutely no problem with this, as there is very little traffic at FL100, and I am sure my colleagues at Manchester will be be happy to route you that way.

[Flybywyre]

On your way back I would suggest leaving at WCO and then working Brize to get you back into Waltham. In my experience Brize have always given an excellent service ( I fly from Waltham )

Regards
FBW

[eyeinthesky]

I haven't measured the distances, but if you are coming back from EIDW without stopping at EGPK then you might prefer to follow R14 and then G1. You would work Brize and Farnborough as you leave at CPT towards WOD. You would have to be up at FL110 until about 30 before BCN, however. If you can't manage that, London Info will provide FIS beneath and they or Cardfiff will arrange a joining clearance if required approaching BCN. Don't be tempted to try B39 during the week: the military play games out there and it is not available.

[eyeinthesky]

Further to my last, I thought I should just comment upon the treatment you said you received on your flight from EBKT to EGLM.

If you look at a map, you will see that airfields such as EGLM, EGLK, EGTF, EGLF are badly placed for IFR arrivals from the East. The problem is that all levels up to 6000' are occupied with traffic departing LL and KK on SIDS. To stop those SIDS off at, say 4000' from LL to allow you to descend to 5000' on your way into LM will mean certain KK SIDS might have to be stopped at 3000'. The noise complaints and pilots' complaints would rocket. Therefore the only way in is to remain high level (FL 80+) until you are clear of the SID tracks, which would mean going almost to CPT before descending. LF inbounds from the East have to go CPT-HANKY-PEPIS (officially) for just this reason. There is also a procedure by CODEY but this is seldom used.

In addition to all that, the density of arriving traffic for LL can mean that blocking FL80 (say) at BIG and OCK is a big problem for the LL golden boys to cope with with their vectoring for approach.

Because of this, you will usually be offered the choice of a high-level transit and then a dirty dive for your destination (shockcooling a possibility:eek: ) or descending to leave CAS around DET and then routing with Thames Radar and/or Farnborough Radar. This is particularly the case for EGTF but is also valid for EGLM and others.

If you are departing to the east, you might consider that you will get a more direct route and an easier clearance if you stay underneath the TMA and join at DET or BPK/LAM as appropriate.

I hope this helps a bit.

[N Reg Aztec]

Thanks for all your replies.

I'll be flying on Friday July 5th so if you hear a struggling Aztec pilot with an Irish accent please be gentle......

[Crappy Headset]

I bet he wished he hadn't asked.:confused:

[Bright-Ling]

Did you tell the controller that you were IMC?? when 10 East of BIG at 2.4A??

Excuse my ignorance, but you were at least at an IFR safe level. How did you get into LM with no Inst approach or did the wx clear by then?

Althought he access for IFR stuff from the East isn't easy, were you offered another routeing? Or were you MADE to drop out of CAS? I take it previous to this you were airways?


B-L

[N Reg Aztec]

Bright-Ling,

Yes we were airways and cleared from KOK to DET to BIG. Only called prior to BIG and TOLD to descend out of controlled airpace due to the stacks at BIG being busy.

We weren't offered any options just descend and contact Lon Info as Thames Radar was too busy also. Did a freecall to Farnborough and they provided us with a RIS.

Re. approach into LM - we were planning to divert to Oxford but as we passed over Reading we broke out of cloud and into some poor vis and then headed for LM.

Like I said, didn't want to have a go at anyone but felt that things could maybe have been handled a bit better - as you suggested maybe an alternative routing or the option of a hold?

I don't know what the solution is with things being so busy in the area, but when you're cleared all the way (BIG - BLK - WOD - EGLM) it would have been nice to get a bit more notice or maybe a plan B?

:confused:

[Bright-Ling]

I know yr probs - and no offence taken me old mucker!

Me thinks, however, that you should take it as read that people are too busy to concentrate on light aircraft into a small airfield with no published instrument procedure. Even the Farnboro' inbounds (BBJ's/Gulfstreams etc) fly outside CAS for about 15-20 miles! That isn't meant to sound rude, is just facts.

Poblems run from the lack of LARS units - Thames isn't such a unit and is funded directly by City airport and Biggin Hill, and is busy enough with their traffic!

Even though Thames couldn't have taken you through their RMA due to workload, if you had said you were IMC outsdie they would probably have given you a limited RIS........better than nowt?!!? (you could have freecalled)

I am sure a member of the the TMA S sector will jump in here, but the last thing they need is a slow light aircraft in the area of CAS there. Sad, but the facts mate.

The prob with the BIG area is that between 2.5 and 4A, Thames use it for their inbounds/outbounds: LHR DVR SIDs climb to 6A in that area heading for DET and the stack then starts for LHR inbounds up to FL120 or higher). Above that (For yr interest) is the LTN/STN stuff decending in that area. See the probs?! Unfortunately, the system is driven by moeny, but we will help you when we can.

Visit the local units.........we are always happy to make you a coffee and explain the probs!

Good luck,

B-L

[N Reg Aztec]

Bright-Ling,

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Also, I would be very interested in visiting a local unit to see the "problem" from your side. Realise we little guys can be a pain in the arse - too low / too slow - but as I understood the above problem I had been given a clearance (no clearance limit specified) and the time to break the bad news to me would have been earlier if possible.

I'm sure my view on this is way too simplistic but like I said - any opportunity for an education on the topic would be most welcome!

:D

[Flybywyre]

Good trip ?
How did you get on :)

FBW