Typhoon & Brimstone

[Lower Hangar]

Is Brimstone fitted on Typhoon ?

[Out Of Trim]

Not Yet.....

[Cat Funt]

Asking for a friend? ;)

[Easy Street]

Covered in depth here:

Typhoon? (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/570735-typhoon.html)

[Rotate too late]

Could someone remind me how much a single UK Hellfire, er sorry Brimstone missile costs.....circa £200K?

[Courtney Mil]

At least two more years, probably three, before Typhoon gets Brimstone, but Tornado carries the capability until then (lucky it was extended).

Dual mode Brimstone replacement round costs £106,000.

Similarity to Hellfire, just the appearance, RTL, despite its origins.

[Rotate too late]

Cheers CM. :ok:

[TEEEJ]

Brimstone - December 2018
Storm Shadow - August 2018

Maria Eagle

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, by when he plans for Stormshadow and Brimstone missile systems to be integrated with Typhoon aircraft.

Mr Philip Dunne

The Strategic Defence and Security Review included a commitment to invest further in Typhoon’s capabilities, including ground attack. Under current plans, the in-service dates on Typhoon will be August 2018 for Storm Shadow and December 2018 for Brimstone.

17865 - Guided Weapons: European Fighter Aircraft (Answered) - Think Defence (http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/11/17865-guided-weapons-european-fighter-aircraft-answered/)

See image of Typhoon during trial installation with Brimstone at following link.

https://www.eurofighter.com/multimedia/details/rs19426-typhoon-in-mutil-role-fit-with-brimstone-missile-and-paveway-ivjpg-1747

https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2014/12/typhoon-fitted-with-brimstone-missile-for-the-first-time

[Courtney Mil]

'bout three years then. I wonder if they might get a UOR.

[Cows getting bigger]

Oooh, I would think it's pretty close to the top of Santa's list.

[Background Noise]

Ah - Eurofighter 2000! So only 18 years late.

[AR1]

Why do people always boil it down to what a weapon costs....

[Just This Once...]

The desire is for a new store carrier that can carry both PWIV and Brimstone (up to 2 PWIV per carrier or up to 3 Brimstones).

Together with current clearances this will give Typhoon the ability to carry of mixed load of small, medium and large warhead weapons to match against the target, whilst retaining AIM-132 & AIM-120 / Meteor missiles.

[skua]

AR1

Because, in case you had not noticed we are in cash-constrained times.

Would it help to put it in other terms? Each time a Brimstone is fired, that's three primary school teacher salaries up in smoke (as well as , one hopes a few men waving black flags).

[Rhino power]

Ah - Eurofighter 2000! So only 18 years late.

Eurofighter, not, Eurofighter/bomber, so not really '18 years late'... Although admittedly the 'fighter' bit was actually late! ;)

-RP

[Rhino power]

The desire is for a new store carrier that can carry both PWIV and Brimstone (up to 2 PWIV per carrier or up to 3 Brimstones).

A bit of info on the, Common Weapon Launcher BAES are working on, that JTO mentions...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-to-study-common-weapon-launcher-for-typhoon-412903/

-RP

[AR1]

cash-constrained times

So lets use dumb ordnance and miss the target. How much does that cost? Such beancounting is the bane our lives. If we have to release any ordnance make it the most effective type.

Tabloid Units of measurement:
Length = football pitches
Height = Double Decker buses (UK) Elephants (elsewhere)
Cost of warfare = Schoolteachers or Nurses

[Tourist]

So lets use dumb ordnance and miss the target. How much does that cost? Such beancounting is the bane our lives. If we have to release any ordnance make it the most effective type.


I don't disagree that tabloid accounting is stupid, however beancounting is important in war.

Scenario 1

Typhoon launches £1m missile that shoots down £50m jet.

Win. The enemy goes bust before you do.

Scenario 2

Typhoon launches £200k missile at infinitely replaceable scrote in stolen landcruiser.

Lose. You go bust before enemy runs out of scrotes or landcruisers.


Arms company very happy though.....

[skua]

This is not a cheap conflict if the MOD release of ops on 30 Nov is anything to go by:

"UK GR4s were once again in action, supporting the Kurdish peshmerga south of Sinjar. Three heavy machine-gun positions were identified, and each struck accurately by a Paveway IV."

So that's £30k to knock out each machine gun position!

[AR1]

So that's £30k to knock out each machine gun position!

That's only slightly more expensive than dropping a band 5 Nurse on them, but considerably more effective.

[Tourist]

This is not a cheap conflict if the MOD release of ops on 30 Nov is anything to go by:


So that's £30k to knock out each machine gun position!

A little bit of research might show you that £30k is actually very reasonable in the context of what a kill cost in any war of the last couple of hundred years..

I have read that in Vietnam it was 50,000 rounds per kill, plus you need to pay all the wages etc.

Read "On Killing"

[Courtney Mil]

So, every time the UK Armed Forces fire a Brimstone, the U.K. loses a nurse. Every time they drop an LGB a teacher has to resign and go on the dole. Every time ISIS loses a Landcruiser with four murdering bastards in it, they come closer to beating the West through economic attrition.

I'm surprised the Government hasn't added a statement to go with SDSR to say you can have your new carriers, but don't fly anything from them or all the schools will have to close.

I hate to think how many dog rescue centres will face the chop just to fly the six Typhoons to Cyprus.

[Pontius Navigator]

Background Noise, not just Eurofighter 2000:

SA80, AS90, MS 2000, Nimrod 2000 just a PR Media 'good idea'.

Just to even things up, AK47 and AK74.

[AR1]

Not forgetting 'Plant a tree in 73'

[KenV]

I don't disagree that tabloid accounting is stupid, however beancounting is important in war.

So fighter pilots should close to short range and use "cheap" Sidewinder/ASRAAM and avoid using "expensive" AMRAAM. Or better yet, close to gun range so they can use even cheaper gun rounds. And only drop cheap dumb bombs and never expensive guided weapons. And should mostly fly cheap Jaguars, avoid flying expensive Typhoons, and NEVER fly exhorbitantly expensive F-35s.

And when flying MPA, the crew should limit their sonobuoy fields to three or four buoys to cut down on costs. And use only "cheap" LOFAR buoys rather than expensive DIFAR buoys and heaven forbid exhorbitant Active Buoys. And only fly cheap C295 MPA aircraft and not expensive P-8 MPA aircraft.

And infantry should use handguns as much as possible because 9mm ammo is much cheaper than 5.56mm ammo. And avoid using machine guns altogether because the vast majority of machine gun rounds miss their target and that's just a waste of ammo. And forget about using weapons that require exhorbitantly expensive 7.62mm or heaven forbid 12.5mm ammo.

Makes sense to me.

[Davef68]

Not forgetting 'Plant a tree in 73'

Watch it grow in '74!

[Pontius Navigator]

And when flying MPA, the crew should limit their sonobuoy fields to three or four buoys to cut down on costs. And use only "cheap" LOFAR buoys rather than expensive DIFAR buoys.

Didn't realise you were on Nimrods in the 70s. No buoys if you had used your allocation, Don t drop CH x, x1 x5 etc. Dont drop a 1c buoy on a contact lost over 5 miles. Don't drop a second even if first u/s.

[Yellow Sun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenV View Post
And when flying MPA, the crew should limit their sonobuoy fields to three or four buoys to cut down on costs. And use only "cheap" LOFAR buoys rather than expensive DIFAR buoys.

Didn't realise you were on Nimrods in the 70s. No buoys if you had used your allocation, Don t drop CH x, x1 x5 etc. Dont drop a 1c buoy on a contact lost over 5 miles. Don't drop a second even if first u/s.

I knew things were getting tight when they started to limit the use of Free Markers;)

YS

[Roadster280]

If that machine gun position isn't taken out, and it kills one of your guys or brings down one of your aircraft, you have just lost considerably more than 30 grand.

On the "that's three primary school teachers" argument, it would only hold true if the money that the munition cost were to be allocated to the education budget. But since the rounds have been bought whether they are fired or age out on the shelf, the money will never go to fund more teachers. It's already been spent.

Now granted, the ammo will be replaced if expended, but perhaps a better metric would be how many immigrants can be kept on state benefits per week.

[strake]

Just saw an interview with the Staish of Marham saying that the blast area of a Brimstone is " a very small dining-table size". Does he mean the damage area because the pics I've seen show something a little bigger? Genuinely interested.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34985628

Interview starts at 1:21

[Royalistflyer]

An Amy friend of mine got the MC for taking out a machine gun emplacement single-handed - I must remind him to go and claim his £10,000

[JointShiteFighter]

So that's £30k to knock out each machine gun position!

It would have been cheaper to ask Corbyn to send them a letter.

[Pontius Navigator]

Royalist, but they would have to deduct 50,000 bullets from his invoice unless he could prove that he hadn't expended any. :)

BZ

[ORAC]

Winning a war, however, is far less expensive than losing one.

[Training Risky]

Or instead of wasting a £200k PW4 on an Islamic State landcruiser, we could always start using cheap, unguided weapons with a wide frag pattern: cluster bombs! :ok:

(Provided the collateral damage estimate shows there would be no risk of civcas...)

[Easy Street]

Collateral damage estimates only measure the short-term risk of civcas. Cluster bombs were not banned because of their short-term effects; they were banned because of the high proportion of bomblets which failed to explode, leaving a long-term problem which no collateral damage assessment could possibly account for.

[VX275]

the Staish of Marham saying that the blast area of a Brimstone is " a very small dining-table size".


Is that an Imperial or Metric dinning table?
How many dinning tables does it take to cover a football pitch? or Wales for that matter?
Blast usually has a radius, so I take it the dinning tables have to be circular rather than rectangular.

[dctyke]

'Winning a war, however, is far less expensive than losing one.'

Did we win in Libya and Afghanistan, I really don't know. What I do know is that it was expensive whatever the outcome was.

[Training Risky]

Thanks for reminding me of that Easy...

I was thinking that the tricky issue of legacy bomblets affecting civilians could be easily mitigated against by actively noting where each CBU was dropped, then going to account for every bomblet once the ground environment allows. Maybe the desert roads of Syria far from established dwellings may reduce further the very real risk of kids coming across a UXB next to a smoking wreck of a landcruiser!

Being a very efficient military, we would obvs make a better job of tidying up bomblets than the Cambodians/Argentines did in previous conflicts.

[Pontius Navigator]

TR, fine in theory, if they were all lying exposed on bare earth. All you need is one in the long grass. The frag range is 30 yards, there are 144 of the little b*offers in each store. How do you know you have accounted for all of them.

I don't know, but I expect the plasma bolt could still work too.

[hoss183]

Quote:
So that's £30k to knock out each machine gun position!
That's only slightly more expensive than dropping a band 5 Nurse on them, but considerably more effective.

I don't know, if the said nurse is sufficiently tubby, or particularly pissed off, she could do some damage :)

[bcgallacher]

Hoss - my wife is a little chubby nurse and I can assure you that pissed off she would make a paveway look insignificant!

[Pontius Navigator]

Bcg, please post again after she has confirmed your statement, after you get out of A&E.

[sitigeltfel]

When debating the cost of missiles you should also consider the cash required to get sufficient troops, their logistic support and back up into the areas concerned and out again. Add the cost of dealing with the inevitable casualties and I think you will find that missiles are cheap by comparison.

[Courtney Mil]

All the answers have been available in open source for years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXnMux6118

[SWBKCB]

my wife is a little chubby nurse and I can assure you that pissed off she would make a paveway look insignificant

I was thinking something similar (although I can assure bcg I was thinking about a completely different nurse... :ok: )

[Turbine D]

CM
All the answers have been available in open source for years.

Ha, Ha, Ha! I often pondered the F-35 program and the basis for its structure, with a little imagination, this was as good an explanatory discussion as any:D:D:D

BTW, for those pondering the cost of Brimstone, etc., wait until the new carrier exits the harbor fully outfitted and crewed with a deck load of F-35s to pay for, service and maintain, the value of Brimstones will seem trivial...

[Two's in]

But the real point is not really "cost per munition round" is it?

The real point is that over 30 years of defence budget erosion by successive Governments and a fatal lack of vision or imagination in the defence strategy has left the UK ill-equipped to counter the current threat. Asymmetric warfare has been a growing threat since the mau-mau, but instead of developing effective counter insurgency techniques and supporting equipment, the UK has become obsessed with big-bang, high-tech, unaffordable cost items that will only ever fit one scenario.

It's one thing maintaining a deterrent against a high tech threat, but it's quite another to squander and bankrupt the country's defence capability against a far more likely threat. Good luck getting that LO BVR capability into the air when you can't even ensure the safety of the crew's families because of a very low tech but very real threat.

Brimstone against Toyota is the very symptom of short-sighted complacency and utter incompetence over many years.

[Courtney Mil]

TurbineD,

Explains everything thing, eh? :ok:

Two's In,

Yeah, I'm with you all the way. I guess (no, I hope) we all feel that way about the lack of investment and continual salami slicing. I'm sure NHS folks, teaching folks and the Police, Fire Brigade, Civil Servants et al would agree.

The good news is that the UK Armed Forces have actually not done that badly compared to other departments and there is at least some hope for the future. Fortunately, our people are nothing if not adaptable and have been engaging in asymmetric warfare for a while now. For now, it's OK. The test will come with the mission creep.

The threat back home has been there for ages. Perhaps best to leave that for now?

[taxydual]

Have we got a air weapon that could be employed take out people who use Twitter?

[Courtney Mil]

Depends who you mean by "we."

[downsizer]

The good news is that the UK Armed Forces have actually not done that badly compared to other departments and there is at least some hope for the future.

There is, but we need to urgently address the gushing outflow of experienced personnel and operators. Sadly very little is being done on this front and there is a real danger we will have a fair bit of kit and no-one to operate and maintain it. Recruitment can only solve so much of the problem.

[Courtney Mil]

Absolutely, Downsizer. Lots of squadrons coming up that will need manning and ships for the Navy. Manning is the elephant in the room in my opinion.

[Danny42C]

Reverting to Courtney Mil's point (#22)
... Every time ISIS loses a Landcruiser with four murdering bastards in it, they come closer to beating the West through economic attrition...
They don't necessarily lose the Landcruiser. This old Post of mine, which I have put in several times already on various Threads, is still relevant:

(Reported by Daily Telegraph 9.1.15):
"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket" (RPG ?) "attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010. There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket at their accommodation block. They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb. The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues. The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground".
Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon.

You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing). So that he can come back later and try again ? (Better luck next time ?)

Danny42C. :confused:

[crackling jet]

Probably the wrong site for this but it does involve costings, i have read in several locations that we could have purchased 3 x FA 18 Super Hornets for each Typhoon or F35 Lightning 2, is this correct or just the Gutter press at it again ?

[Rhino power]

Probably the wrong site for this but it does involve costings, i have read in several locations that we could have purchased 3 x FA 18 Super Hornets for each Typhoon or F35 Lightning 2, is this correct or just the Gutter press at it again ?

The last part of your question (my italics/underlining) just about sums it up...

-RP

[bcgallacher]

Pontius - I may not be the sharpest knife in the box but I am not that dim!!

[Pontius Navigator]

bcg, thought not :)

[just another jocky]

The Quality of Mercy is not strained........ Reverting to Courtney Mil's point (#22)
Quote:
... Every time ISIS loses a Landcruiser with four murdering bastards in it, they come closer to beating the West through economic attrition...
They don't necessarily lose the Landcruiser. This old Post of mine, which I have put in several times already on various Threads, is still relevant:

(Reported by Daily Telegraph 9.1.15):
Quote:
"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket" (RPG ?) "attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010. There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket at their accommodation block. They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb. The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues. The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground".
Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon.

You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing). So that he can come back later and try again ? (Better luck next time ?)

Danny42C. :confused:


Danny, I know nothing of this particular event but could it have been collateral damage was an issue?


And these were not Da'esh, they were Taliban and winning the hearts & minds of the local populace by not trashing their village was probably more important.


Just a thought.

[glad rag]

Watch it grow in '74!

And watch it bulldozed in '16 for refugee new build....

[Martin the Martian]

I used to be a nurse, and can testify that an ISIS machine gun post would stand no chance against some of my ex-colleagues, dropped from a Typhoon or not.

Think of the ride of the Valkyries in scrubs.

[glad rag]

All the answers have been available in open source for years.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXnMux6118

Or even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0jgZKV4N_A

:E

[peter we]

The fact is daesh have very limited resources and they are being constantly depleted.

How many Terrorist have they actually managed to deploy in the West over the last decade? Those that do, seem to far less common than the normal distribution of psychopathic/schizophrenics within the population.

A human life is valued at a million dollars or thereabouts, so $50k for a daesh psyco seems a fair price to pay.

[crackling jet]

Thanks Rhino, Thought it was not quite right but with all the BAE over runs and overspends, just curiosity got the better of me and thought i'd check, again, as they say "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story", worthless bunch