The dramatic A380 landing

[JammedStab]

Can I assume that this dramatic(also labelled as scary) landing on CNN was pretty much as it is supposed to be done.

Pilot makes scary sideways landing - CNN Video (http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/09/26/plane-landing-wind-dusseldorf-airport.youtube-com-cargospotter/video/playlists/planes-near-miss/)

[CanadaKid]

A "trainable" moment .... to use a new catchphrase?

CK

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Yes it was. Totally normal crosswind landing made dramatic by long lense.

[Wizofoz]

Q for A380 drivers- where is the localizer antenna? On the 777, if you slavishly track the LOC while crabbing in a crosswind, you actually end up slightly on the downwind side of the runway, as the antenna is near the nose.

Same on the Whale?

[north flyer]

I can't take it anymore.

I have been flying for 40 years, and have flown more different types of airplanes than I can remember, but what I do remember is that I have never, and I mean never, known where the localizer antenna was on any of them or any other antenna, because all I did was look out the window and land, that's just the why it is done.

And if the day comes that I know where the localizer antenna is, and talk about it like the dip**** asking this question, take me out back of a hanger and shoot me.

[vfenext]

North Flyer, I want to buy you a beer!

[helen-damnation]

Hahaha.

Don't have 40 years yet, do know where one of the antennas is but....

I do know to also look out the window and put myself upwind of the centreline (purely as a technique...)



(Not intended as a critique of this op btw)

[Wizofoz]

So- I notice that having the LOC centered put's you a little down-wind, and thus it's a good idea to include this fact when making sure I'm on the C/L and I'm a dip****?

I know where the loc antenna is because I've watched endless students in the sim de-crab only to find themselves downwind. Digging a little deeper I found it was because they where using the LOC to line themselves up, as they often didn't know how much the length of the aircraft displaces their picture from the centerline.

Terribly sorry to offend your sensibilities, north flyer, by trying to help my students.

[delorean79]

We didn't have enough with the FDM's, Safety Departments and ASR's ... Now we have PPrune!

We are our worst enemies... :ugh:

[Enos]

It was just a question!

[glofish]

The localizer symbol is magenta ......

By the way: Where has the de-crabbing technique gone?

[Monarch Man]

I know where the loc antenna is because I've watched endless students in the sim de-crab only to find themselves downwind. Digging a little deeper I found it was because they where using the LOC to line themselves up, as they often didn't know how much the length of the aircraft displaces their picture from the centerline.


And therein lies the rub, the SIM whilst being a valuable tool is a pinball machine when it comes to realism and feel with respect to crosswinds and using a technique.
Unfortunately Wiz, a good proportion of your colleagues utilise little in the way of finesse when teaching students because they themselves are woefully inadequate or inexperienced when it comes to operating in marginal or limiting conditions. It's sadly a reflection of the lowest common denominator, and hence your perfectly reasonable and sensible technique is lost in the jumble of poorly thought through SOP adherence, miss handled aileron inputs and worst of all an inability to use the rudder properly.
5 hrs of bumps and circuits in 10kts of xwind in a chipmunk would instill some reasonable piloting.
The other issue relates to a huge over reliance on automation, how often do you see people get out of shape on the line thanks to disconnecting at 500' and being blissfully unaware of the forward slip that is applied?
In any case, I'm a huge advocate of flaring slightly upwind which maintains the centreline and allows for a margin of error when coping with gusty conditions i.e. AMS, DUB, BHX, GLA etc etc

[misd-agin]

Drifting downwind, downwind gear touched down first, and in a crab with no cross control.

Scary? No. Acceptable? Yes. High marks? No.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

That was one of my better landings. :E

[JammedStab]

I can't take it anymore.

I have been flying for 40 years, and have flown more different types of airplanes than I can remember, but what I do remember is that I have never, and I mean never, known where the localizer antenna was on any of them or any other antenna, because all I did was look out the window and land, that's just the why it is done.


For those who fly larger aircraft such as the 747/777, knowing that it is on the nosegear doors(at least for the final approach phase means understanding why the wing low method is used exclusively for autolands. If you care to know.

Back to your Cessna now.

[olster]

wizofoz ' s question was perfectly reasonable and is certainly not the dip**** here.

[CanadaKid]

@MonarchMan

Likewise a few splash & go's in a seaplane would emphasize decrabbing prior to touchdown. Otherwise its just the one splash, LOL!


Not sure about other large types but the Boeing 777 FCTM does allow crabbed landings except when nearing the 'demonstrated' crosswind limits, (as seen on YouTube).

CK

[emratty]

Food for thought that we now have Captains on the A380 who have never landed a plane in more than 20kts crosswind.

[Speedbrake]

North flyer - you pride yourself on ignorance. Seriously? :ugh: Although there is a lot to be said for using visual cues (when available) to fly the plane, the question initially posed is valid and shows some forward thinking.

Wizofoz, the A380 LOC antenna is in the radome.

For the benefit of those who prefer to get their info from Pprune rather than from a reliable and approved source -
Flight Crew Training Manual

FINAL APPROACH
In crosswind conditions, the flight crew should fly a "crabbed" final approach wings level, with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare.

FLARE
///

The recommended de-crab technique is to use the following:
• The rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading during the flare
• The roll control, if needed, to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The flight crew should counteract any tendency to drift downwind by an appropriate lateral(roll) input on the sidestick.

In the case of strong crosswind during the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The flight crew can land the aircraft with a partial de-crab (i.e. a residual crab angle up to about 5°) to prevent an excessive bank. This technique prevents wing tip or engine nacelle strike caused by an excessive bank angle.

As a consequence, this can result in touching down with some bank angle into the wind, therefore, with the upwind landing gear first.


If you have a problem with the aforementioned, I'm sure Airbus would love to hear from you. Airbus.com*| Airbus, a leading aircraft manufacturer (http://www.airbus.com)

Nicely shot video though.

[THRCLB]

Yup ur right same in the A330/340 and 777 ....except in the sim :E

[Monarch Man]

777 FCTM

Crosswind Landing Techniques

Three methods of performing crosswind landings are presented. They are the de-crab technique (with removal of crab in flare), touchdown in a crab, and the sideslip technique. Whenever a crab is maintained during a crosswind approach, offset the flight deck on the upwind side of centerline so that the main gear touches down in the center of the runway.

Had to point this out to the SFI/TRI etc on my last manual handling sim when he mentioned I was slightly left of the centre line in a crabbed landing :ugh:
You got to love it when the teachers don't even know what they are teaching :ugh::hmm::ugh:

[harry the cod]

MM

Maybe he was trying to be subtle, rather than directly point out your nose was actually over the grass! And for the record, a TRI and SFI are different.:ugh:
You got to love it when line guys don't even know who's doing their teaching! :ugh::hmm::ugh:

Harry

[Payscale]

The A380 s flown on centerline and decrabed in the flare. In high winds a approx 2 deg bank into the wind is possible to stop drift.
North Flyer, there is nothing wrong with actually knowing facts about your airplane. After 40 years in aviation maybe it time to sit behind that hanger all the time anyway...Skaal:ok:

[Praise Jebus]

Monarch your quote and presumably what you so knowledgeably pointed out to your TRI says to aim upwind so the main gear touches down on the centre line, the main gear...are you serious? The technique mentioned by Speedy from the FCTM is of course correct. Its the same way the autopilot achieves it in an autoland, rudder to decrab and a little into wind to prevent/correct any drift...The autopilot applies the wing drop as it is straightening and as such stays tracking the LOC. In a manual landing your nose "appears" to drift down wind as you straighten so you should apply wing drop in the same manner. The technique error arises by pilots not recognising or anticipating this drift early enough, as the AP does and therefor applying wing drop after straightening from a downwind position. They then think by aiming upwind next time all will work.....and it does but all they and you are doing is masking poor technique.

[Monarch Man]

Nice one Harold
MM

Maybe he was trying to be subtle, rather than directly point out your nose was actually over the grass! And for the record, a TRI and SFI are different.
You got to love it when line guys don't even know who's doing their teaching!

Harry

Play the man and not the ball eh? Given that YOU weren't there, I'll assume your comment is based on ignorance, otherwise I'll make an assumption just like you have, you are speaking out of your rectum and what spouts forth is bovine manure.

Jebus, I'm struggling to make sense of your comments given that I am very serious in that to make sure the mains touch down on the centreline whilst crabbed, you must, given a couple of geometric certainties offset the nose of the aircraft upwind to ensure that this happens. What have I missed? The instructor or TRI/SFI etc, was not only ignorant of this reality, he went as far as to suggest that this was an incorrect technique. My point to him was the exact opposite and I mentioned that his opinion/technique/personal preference/feeling in his bones was mistaken.
What you describe with respect to maintaining the centreline is the technique for de crabbing in the flare and tracking the centreline with a combination of aileron and rudder inputs. A forward slip approach tends to make the poor punters in the back sick which is why I haven't practised it in anything other than the 777F.
It's not about poor piloting technique, it's what's appropriate for the conditions.
It's not that hard if it's taught properly by people that actually have a clue about what they are doing, which brings me back to my original point.

[harry the cod]

MM

Actually, my comment was based on a little humour and a wind up hence that last line. Keep the blue side up old boy and maybe a few chill pills with a beer or two wouldn't harm you. :cool:

Harold

[motley flight crue]

Actually thought the landing was ok. I haven't done a real x-wind landing in ages. Maybe 1 or 2 a year. We're not exactly doing it alot.

[donpizmeov]

MM, when flying a CAT 1 to minima do you offset from the LLZ to upwind if there is a crosswind?

[Schnowzer]

Looked alright to me. Nice stable approach, slightly late taking the drift off but safe landing in the right place. It always amazes me how wrapped up some people get about expecting perfection in relatively unusual circumstances. Yep, I reckon I do at most 2 or 3 landings a year with a serious crosswind (outside of the sim).

I never look at the localiser below minima, the instrument outside the window always seems much more interesting. I know the manuals say reference the localiser but personally I always drift a tad upwind on short final to try and put the main wheels down on the centreline but that is only because the bogey on the big bus is so wide. It is not SOP but it makes me feel more comfortable. The outer downwind wheel is 7 m from the centreline without wind so maybe 15m away at max crosswind. Any drift downwind puts it quite close to the edge on a 45m runway and I remember from board games it is critical to keep the dice on the IPS.

[jack schidt]

LOC antennae is located in the nose of the A380 and it looks pretty much as though the cockpit was tracing the centreline all the way down to the flare. Doing a strong crosswind landing on the A380 (especially on a 45m wide runway) is a challenge (take a 60m runway if available). The aircraft does not like landing with side force on the gear and it is critical to get it straight at touchdown for that reason.

The crosswind training in the sim is nothing like the reality of the real thing, the sim = 700fpm on any approach for the slope and in the real world with gusty variable winds that RoD requires adjustment. The HUGE tailplane/rudder is very effective at getting the aircraft straight very quickly. The whole postioning of the aircraft into the flare/decrab is a skill which is not practiced or used that often, that makes it harder still.

The Bus has an ability to pick up a dropped wing itself and that can be compounded by the pilot wanting to naturally input roll into the sidestick when using rudder to straigthen the aircraft which compounds a roll problem if done like so. Practice makes perfect and we don't get that much practice.

J

[Dropp the Pilot]

"The aircraft does not like landing with side force on the gear and it is critical to get it straight at touchdown for that reason."

What a delicate and mincing device that must be. You may compare it to the competition:

"The airplane can land using crab only (zero sideslip) up to the landing crosswind
guideline speeds"

Good thing all the geniuses and astronauts are on the whale.

[BigGeordie]

Well, it certainly isn't built like a tractor....

Seriously though, the FCOM does allow 5 degrees of crab on touchdown. I think much more than that would start to get uncomfortable for the passengers anyway.

[glofish]

It looks like a notch more than 5 degrees to me .... and touching with the downwind struts first which would't usurp a "nice" from me.

[Fearless Leader]

The amount of experience shown by the posters here make me soo HAPPY to know that you "Astronauts" will make sure that I have the "Ultimate Flying Experience" and be in "THE" most capable hands, whilst flying in the back (with an Adult Beverage of course).

Now stop all this nonsense!!
I'm bored already:ugh::ugh:

[ibelieveicanfly]

I did 3 or 4 landings on 380 this year with xwind around 30kt... Concentration required and much room left for error

[captainsmiffy]

Dropp......that would be genii......

[Schnowzer]

I, I, Captain

[jack schidt]

@ Fearless, I think the correct spelling is "Austronauts" to be precise. It is a true fact that the Australians were going to be the first country into space back in the 60s. The only reason they never made it is because they are still briefing!

j

[ExDubai]

Aussie bashing :)

[Monarch Man]

Don,

MM, when flying a CAT 1 to minima do you offset from the LLZ to upwind if there is a crosswind?

No, but after transitioning to the visual, if there is any significant crosswind and corresponding drift, then I do as a matter of technique ensure that the mains touch down on the centreline, which may or may not require offsetting the nose to the upwind side of the centreline. It's a minor correction to make.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I was shown a demo auto land in the a380 sim with 30 kts xwind. It tracked the loc dead centre, with wings level and crab. During the flare it aligned the aircraft with the centreline for a perfect on centreline touch down. The rate of de crab was a lot slower than I would have thought you would need.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Mea culpa.

Prior to typing I should have stopped at one martinus.

[Fearless Leader]

Martini's are like women's breasts;
One is not enough, and three is too many!!

(I assume you meant Martini's, and not martinus)