Logging Night time [Archive]

Victo

29th Sep 2015, 11:07

Good morning,
I've been looking on the searcher and on google but I don't find the right answers to my question. In a flight from the US to Moscow, for example, taking-off daylight from the US, just before sunset, and landing in Europe again daylight, after having "crossed the night" over the ocean, how shall i log the time? Is it only the part that I really have flown in the dark? For example, 4 hours? Appart from that, I know in the US it says things about one houre after sunset and one hour before dawn (30min in EASA), but on flights West to East and East to West this doesn't make a lot of sense. Some colleagues tell me that if more than half of the flight was night time, then all the flight can be logged night time, but I don't find anything written on that. I am interested on both FAA and EASA rules for this.
Thank you.

Bobermo

29th Sep 2015, 12:12

Get a digital logbook and it will calculate the night time for you.

My understanding is that it is time actually flying between sunset and sunrise at the actual position of the aircraft. So if flying west to east indeed only a couple of hours actually "in the dark".

Not in the position at the moment to look up the definition, sorry.

Skyjob

29th Sep 2015, 13:57

Digital logbooks invariably help a lot in this.
Effectively they draw a great circle route from departure to arrival field and divide the distance over duration, thus incrementally calculating down to the minute when your great circle track encounters night time according to FAA/EASA regulations.
Some logbooks even log takeoff and landing time, enabling further calculation of ground time in Day/Night calculations.
There are plenty of websites giving you location based times, such as sunrise-sunset (http://sunrise-sunset.org).
For a route calculator have a look at this crewlogbook utility (http://www.crewlogbook.com/utilities/night_calculator.php)

misd-agin

29th Sep 2015, 14:28

If you don't have an electronic logbook do it the old fashioned way, do you need the instruments lights to see them? That's night time. It can be a long time after sunset at altitude. Not does the lights make it easier but is it impossible to fly without the instrument lights.

U.S. to Europe is all night time in the winter and less than 4 hrs in the summer time.

Where's the regulation stating that 51% night time allows you to log 100% night time? I love to interview guys with fake time in their logbooks.

It's like IMC logging. You can't see a cloud and log instrument time. Flying above an overcast isn't IMC. Flying between layers isn't IMC. Guy said 30% of his jet flying was instrument. With leg/sector sharing that meant 60% of his jet time was IMC. He'll never get hired.

Citation2

29th Sep 2015, 21:06

I will open a new subject here but IMC does not mean necessarily in the clouds. VMC is 5 km , 1500 ft from clouds vertically and 1000 m horizontally.

If you don't have these minimas you are by default in IMC . So BKN at 6000 and you flying at 5000 out of clouds , is called IMC. 4 km visibility is IMC regardless of in or out clouds.

misd-agin

29th Sep 2015, 21:16

^^ No. You have to be on instruments.

FAR 61.51

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

If you are at FL 350, 100' above a solid overcast, you are in VMC on an IFR flight plan. You can't log instrument time because you can fly without looking at your instruments.

Citation2

29th Sep 2015, 22:06

At FL350 you are not operating the aircraft according to instruments ? So according to what ?visual flight rules ? Come on be real . If you are not using instrument to navigate at FL350 , how are you navigating? Most probably You will be flying in RVSM and RNAV which is pure instrument flying , or using RAW data from VOR to VOR . Definitely complying with FAR regulation as you are not only in IFR flight plan but also navigating using instruments.

You dont have to wait to be in the clouds to start using instruments. Having a nice view outside at Fl350 does not mean you are not using instruments as a primary and sole source of navigation.

AerocatS2A

29th Sep 2015, 23:24

Logging IMC time has nothing to do with navigation, it's all about keeping the aircraft right side up. Don't confuse IFR with IMC.

misd-agin

30th Sep 2015, 02:33

Citation - using your logic there is no need to log instrument time because total time = instrument time. Why? Because every modern jet has instruments that you look at to fly effectively.

Cak

30th Sep 2015, 02:40

@ misd-agin

It's sad that you are interviewing anybody and making decisions about somebody elses life. You would need to go again on basic flight training and learn the basics again.

AerocatS2A told you right, IMC and IFR are 2 different things and besides, in most of the countries in the world, it's forbidden to fly commercial jet according VFR rules. Even visual approach is a part of the IFR procedure

And in your logbook, I don't think that you log IMC flight time

Victo

30th Sep 2015, 08:48

Uplinker

30th Sep 2015, 09:13

@Misd-agin, I don't think vitco was talking about flying a Cessna 152 around at 2000'.

Flying a commercial jet at FL350 above the clouds with the autopilot in. Are you flying VFR or IFR?

Well if you claim to be not using your instruments, then how are you monitoring:

your speed?

your altitude within 200'?

vertical speed?

your pitch attitude? (you can't see the horizon - you're not relying on cloud layers I hope)

your roll attitude? (ditto horizon?)

your rudder balance?

your fuel state and distribution?

your fuel temperature?

your engine parameters?

the cabin atmosphere?

the winds and TAT, SAT?

MMo?

Vls?

your heading?

Anyway, back to the OP. Just be pragmatic. If I have flown 2:24 from Malaga to Luton, and roughly the last half hour was in darkness - I log 2:00 of day flying and :24 of night flying.

If I have flown 8:37 from Tobago to Gatwick, I will typically log 1:37 of day flying and 7:00 of night flying, 'cos it got dark about an hour and a half after take off.

If you are trying to work this all out months later, the AERAD grey supplement has tables of sunrise and sunsets, so on your next longhaul flight you can go through your log book and work it out.

:ok:

zlin77

30th Sep 2015, 10:54

I would usually pick a reasonable number and log it, it's funny how a good percentage of my night command time was logged, "dozing for dollars" in crew rest..if you have 10,15,20 thousand hours, does it matter...?

A Squared

30th Sep 2015, 10:54

I think that some of the disagreement here comes from a number of different people from different countries applying different sets of regulations.

I have no idea what the regulations are governing the logging of instrument time and night time in the UK, Australia and France, and I wouldn't presume to tell anyone from there what it correct under their regulations. I do, however know that the regulations are in the US, and misd-agin is correct for the US, Under the FAA regulations you may *only* log instrument time when the conditions actual or simulated, would prevent adequate control of the airplane using. Misd-agin quoted the relevant regulation governing this:

FAR 61.51

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

The intent is pretty clear, but in case someone is tempted to try to quibble about the meaning of "actual instrument flight conditions", a legal interpretation by the FAA's Chief Legal Counsel clarifies exactly what is meant by that : "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft.

So, if you were able to keep the airplane right side up by looking out the window, as you can in clear conditions above a solid cloud layer, you are not entitled to log instrument time under US regulations. Perhaps other countries' regulations are different.

Also, for the US, logging of night time is not sunset to sunrise, it is from the end of evening civil twilight to the beginning of morning civil twilight. Granted, the original question about night time was from someone in France and the EASA regulations may say something different.

Capt Fathom

30th Sep 2015, 12:14

Sunset to sunrise?

misd-agin

1st Oct 2015, 00:52

The U.S. regulation was posted. If it doesn't apply to your country log time per your country's laws.

Here's a couple of things to think about -

1. If you think that by looking at your instruments in VMC allows you to log IMC time what happens if you lose your instruments? Can you still log IMC time?

2. Aerobatics often requirements specific and exact speed, altitudes, G's, bank angles, and headings. Does that qualify for instrument flight since aerobatics are conducted in VMC?

3. Low level attack to pop ups geometry required exact speed, headings, pitch attitudes, dive angles, airspeed checks, aimpoints/aim-offs, and then release altitudes. And in the old days it required manual updates to you mil settings (HATS anyone??). All using instruments. Do they people that believe referencing instruments in VMC would allow fighter pilots to log IMC time on those missions?

Yes, in the U.S. you can't log time as the nay-sayers that have posted on here believe. We're interviewing in the U.S. A basic review of a candidate includes flight time review. Flight time outside of the legally defined time might indicate one or two possible reasons - 1. a lack of knowledge of the FAR's, or 2., a desire to 'pad' their flight time. Neither comes across well in an interview.

One guy had 30% of his flight time as IMC(instrument). That meant 60% of his entire career was spent in IMC(two pilot operations). I've seen hundreds of resumes. No one, not one, had that percentage. No one came close to that percentage. We're hiring less than 5% of the candidates. Why should he make the top 5%?

Bobermo

1st Oct 2015, 20:01

Thank you very much for the answers to everybody. Those digital logbooks you are talking about, can I buy one and log the flights I did 6 months or 1 year ago and it will calculate my night time? Only with the airport indicators and the UTC time of departure? If so, it has to be a huge data base insinde. I'm not familiar at all with this kind of tecnology. Could you recommend me any of them? Thanks.
On the other conversation you are having, I can just say that on my logbook, EASA, there's nothing like IMC flight time, only IFR flight time.

Yes you can add your previous flights and it will automatically calculate the night time flown.
The two most used are MCCpilotlog and LogtenPro. I use MCcpilotlog but I hear great stories about logten as well.

Once you get used to your electronic logbook you will never look back!

No Fly Zone

1st Oct 2015, 22:18

Come on ladies and gents! Several folks bend his question and offer potential software solutions, but only ONE comes anywhere close to answering his basic question. I hope @Victo can glean what he needs, but he'll probably have to make some assumptions in the process, exactly what he apparently does not want to do. I cannot answer his question. If I could, I'd do so without distractions, at least until his modest question was fully answered. I think we can do better. Just as carpenters measure twice and cut once, perhaps we can read twice and answer once, responding to the question asked. Thank you, one and all.;)

ExDubai

1st Oct 2015, 22:54

@Victo have a look at MCCpilotlog, the basic version is for free. At the end of the day you'll need to purchase a upgrade. I'd recommend the ENT/Enterprise version which cost about 69 €. You can run it with your single license key on diffrent devices (Desktop, Laptop, Tablet).
As Bobermo said "Once you get used to your electronic logbook you will never look back!"

viking767

1st Oct 2015, 23:30

Victo

10th Oct 2015, 18:41

Hello, sorry for those days without replying to "my post". I've had some problems with my computer screen. It started with some dead pixels, I touched it with the fingers and then more dead pixels... I went to the shop were I bought the computer and it looks like HP will take care of the problem... So I am now without computer at home.
Thank you very much for all the replys and all the info, I will purchase the digital logbook as soon as I get my laptop back, I've been thinking for a long time to buy one, and the sooner I start with it the better it will be. I will try MCCpilotlog, as two of you recommend it to me.
Regards, again thank you!

FullWings

10th Oct 2015, 19:42

If you are flying across the Atlantic in a jet, why would you possibly care about logging night or instrument time? If you do recurrent training it takes care of the currency requirements, and if you are bringing your logbook to a job interview I doubt any one would care how much night time you have if they see you have been flying a transport jet across the pond.
Yes, quite.

Instrument time, night time, inverted asymmetric partial-panel NDB holding time, whatever. Since I obtained my licence, no-one (including me) has been the slightest bit interested in any of it. They only get excited when I'm approaching the limit for flying/duty/workdays.

If you’d done a lot of night freighting you might end up with more night hours than someone who’d done mostly aerial photography. Just a guess. Airlines are generally interested in two things: can you pass an LPC/OPC and could someone sit next to you for 12hrs and not want to punch your lights out.

Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot? :E

oceancrosser

10th Oct 2015, 21:32

Citation2

12th Oct 2015, 18:28

"Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot?"

I would call this visual , visual with the flight directors

AerocatS2A

13th Oct 2015, 02:27

"Would you call following a flight director “instrument flying” any more than doing it on autopilot?"

I would call this visual , visual with the flight directors

I like that.

Seriously though, you still have to monitor that the FD is giving correct information and that requires an instrument scan. Some older types can get you into serious trouble if you blindly follow the FD.

Check Airman

13th Oct 2015, 04:10

Seriously though, you still have to monitor that the FD is giving correct information and that requires an instrument scan. Some older types can get you into serious trouble if you blindly follow the FDAgree 100%, but is that really how it's being taught? The last time I was in the sim, the trainee was new to the type, and was having difficulty with SE ILS approaches. The instructor kept pushing the guy to follow the FD, even though doing so made the job harder. I use the FD bars as guidance, however it seems that many instructors teach the FD as a command.

Heaven forbid you should turn off the FD when cleared for an approach...:ugh:

Rick777

13th Oct 2015, 04:37

I sure hope I never have to fly with missed again. If he thinks he can operate a jet at 350 over a cloud deck 2000 feet below and fly without instruments he is going to wind up dead.

Check Airman

13th Oct 2015, 05:11

One guy had 30% of his flight time as IMC(instrument). That meant 60% of his entire career was spent in IMC(two pilot operations).

Nope. You don't need to be PF to log IMC. IMC is a condition of flight. Both pilots log IMC simultaneously, just as you would day or night time.

Anyway, who cares how much IMC his logbook says he has? How did he do on the sim assessment? That's far more important than the numbers in the column.

Mikehotel152

13th Oct 2015, 07:42

What a peculiar discussion. I do hope nobody is being prejudiced against during recruitment for airline jobs because they don't separate their log book hours in accordance with an irrelevant criteria?

With respect, I think A Squared's quotes from the FAR 61.51 and the FAA's Chief Legal Counsel are a red herring. I don't think it's just a FAA thing either. I suspect many authorities have these out-of-date legislative passages and interpretations which don't fit with the modern airline operation.

Surely for airline pilots the 'outside conditions' would include the rules by which you are flying an airway, the radar heading assigned by ATC or the STAR/SID tracks? These rules do not require or imply any outside visual reference but they most certainly do require flying on instruments because without the instruments you could not comply.

Sub-dividing hours in to day/night and VMC/IMC conditions is quite possibly of relevance to GA or regional operators who fly primarily to small fields without instruments approaches, but to the airline industry it's arguable wholly irrelevant.

A Squared

13th Oct 2015, 08:10

Agreed that the definitions and the flight time classifications really only have significance for airman certification, and perhaps for hiring at an entry level. If you were involved in hiring at an airline which is typically hiring GA pilots, instrument time might be a means of separating applicants who have done significant IFR flying from those who have been primarily flying VFR like banner towing and carrying skydivers. For an airline far enough up on the food chain that applicants are from other airlines "instrument time" probably doesn't have much meaning. Once you have your ATP, and a couple of years of airline flying, "instrument time" and "night time" are probably pretty irrelevant.

That said, the regulation and Chief Counsel interpretation I quoted is *the* official stance of the FAA on the issue. The interpretation exists, precisely because the FAA has been asked the question, and the Interpretation is the FAA's official legal stance on what constitutes "instrument flight time".

I'm kind of at a loss for what basis you have for claiming that this is "out of date" or a red herring. Do you have anything at all to support your claim that the FAA has changed it's official legal stance on this issue? The current regulation is still worded the same, and as far as I know the FAA's Chief Counsel has not issued an interpretation which supersedes the one I quoted.

So what is your basis for claiming that this is no longer true?

Check Airman

13th Oct 2015, 08:54

I'd have to check the regs, and perhaps it varies by region, but I recall a very clear statement in a company manual around pilot recency that only Captains can log Actual instrument time as PNF back when we needed Instrument time for currency.

Perhaps that was true at one time, but the current FAA stance is that both pilots may log IMC.

misd-agin

13th Oct 2015, 14:56

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/1999/carpenter%20-%20(1999)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

SIC/PNF/PM can log instrument time if two crew members are required.

1999 ruling.

My comment about logging instrument time while SIC was wrong.

Mikehotel152

13th Oct 2015, 21:28

So what is your basis for claiming that this is no longer true?

'Red herring', because it's not relevant to airline flying, which was the context of the night logging query and the comments on logging IMC time.

'Out of date', in the sense that the airline industry has generally moved on and I don't think the definitions were intended to be used for modern airline operations.

So, while I'm sure it is still 'true', I don't think it's necessarily 'right'.