It IS possible.

[Spgl]

Hey everyone,

I've been looking at the posts in here for quite some time now, never felt the need to share too much. I just wanted to say, that there's a lot of negativity in here. It wasn't without big doubts when I entered the job market a few months ago. Reading through the posts made me question the career path I've chosen. It seemed nearly impossible to get any job with a fresh CPL and no experience. However, no more than a month ago I've managed to land a FO position with a national, European carrier. TT 250h. Brand new, 50 ton jet, a decent salary, but most importantly, no P2F and a reasonable bond.

I'm not saying that it's easy, I guess I was just lucky and at the right place/right time. I understand the struggle some of you have and the market isn't fair for everyone. BUT there are other opportunities than Wizz/Easyjet/Ryanair extremly costly MPL's and some P2F's. Just don't lose your motivation and believe people in here, who say it's impossible.

Best of luck to everyone.

[hazholmes]

Many congratulations.

[neutralpoint]

well done, who with?

[AMS]

to help everyone with positivity, please help by giving info who with, how so people can try different thinks and not moan.

You are correct too much negativity, but faced with no hope and options sadly its inevitable to become negative.

congrats on your job and best of luck

[Tomasz]

Its LOT that is hiring, 40 or so this year and probably 100 pilots next year

[LandingConfig]

Its LOT that is hiring, 40 or so this year and probably 100 pilots next year

I was thinking LOT E195 with regard to the national carrier and the 50 ton jet.

[PropDude]

I think you need to be fluent in Polish for LOT:cool:

[Swept]

It really is a tough world out there with a big fence between US and THEM. Those in the game and those struggling to cross over. I am ex-military, 4000TT, CPL (fATPL) and it took me over 2 years to get a job as my experience counted for nothing in the eyes of HR Depts. Eventually due to some networking, a bit of cheek and a lot of luck I managed to secure an interview and am now flying 757's in the ME. All the FO's in my current company have a similar story where networking and a little bit of luck has played it's part in them securing a contract.

There's not much advice to give but lansen is doing the right thing by keeping flying, building those hours and trying not to give up. There comes a time though when enough is enough and I was already considering a new career in teaching and had given it another 2 years before saying goodbye to the commercial aviation market.

FYI:
Quals: 4000TT (2500 fighters, IRE, instructor) fATPL
Job: 757s Cargo, ME

Good luck

[P40Warhawk]

Lansen does the wrong thing, by Paying to fly. Ruining our job market. Not the best pilots get the RHS but the ones with biggest wallet and taking away chances for REAL pilots.

[lansen]

Well P40, have fun in the cabin for the rest of your life. :8
Fyi, I had well above average grades in both my integrated program, as in my type rating.

[P40Warhawk]

I wont be CC for the rest of my life. I refuse to ruin the market for myself and my colleagues. In some cases you need to be selfish yes, but this is from the lowest level. High Marks or not. No one cares. You take away chances for boys and girls who are also very good, but not having the funds. They are chanceless, because of guys like you.

And I WILL get my chance. And if it did not work, then so be it. But I dont let me get screwed over by an employer and work as a slave. Even worse then a slave. Because slaves did not have to pay to work.
I am very patient, and my time will come. Guys in the company I work for were also patient for like 3-5 years, but they got their job in the cockpit. Cabin Crew, Ramp Agents etc. I am finished since Sept. 2013. So 2 years ain't that bad yet. But still. I have a mission, and I will NOT give up.

[AMS]

P40:
Apologies but you cannot get aggressive on people that have the funds and get annoyed if you don't - it's life. We all face that - some get chances where others don't.

They ain't ruining it for others etx - they are all trying to do what we all would given the chance.... Sadly the industry is what it is..... You cannot ruin it anymore.....

Work hard to get your chance and do what you need to get your chance....

best of luck

[newb1112]

Well P40, have fun in the cabin for the rest of your life.
Fyi, I had well above average grades in both my integrated program, as in my type rating.

Wait... You're mocking him for working as cabin crew, yet you did integrated training, have paid for a type rating and you still can't find a job.

I know which one I'd rather sit next to.

[n.dave]

We are all slaves at the end. Paying taxes.

[dboy]

Frenchwannabe hits the nail: going on with private life!!! So important and many people ignore that. Wait untill they are in their cockpit, than they will now what we are talking about.

[lansen]

@FrenchyJealousy

And here we go again. Accusing all people who go for p2f are sponsored by their parents or are overall just spoiled brats. :D
I hope you guys rot in the cabin. Sorry to say, but accusing people who take the chance, rather then waiting for a miracle, of destroying the the business is just stupid. You would need everybody to stop p2f. And I am sincerely not going to bet the next 3-4 years of my life on that.

[speed_alive_rotate]

"I hope you guys rot in the cabin"

What an excellent future captain you are going to make lansen!!!!

[P40Warhawk]

In no way you have any respect for your colleague pilots as well your colleagues in the cabin.

Nice to know how you think about us. Very professional. :D . What an attitude. This shows enough about you. That will be noticed soon enough as well in the cockpit by the guy left of you and the company.

[Vipersrt10]

@FrenchyJealousy

And here we go again. Accusing all people who go for p2f are sponsored by their parents or are overall just spoiled brats.
I hope you guys rot in the cabin. Sorry to say, but accusing people who take the chance, rather then waiting for a miracle, of destroying the the business is just stupid. You would need everybody to stop p2f. And I am sincerely not going to bet the next 3-4 years of my life on that.

:D
And this my fellow aviators is the cancer in our profession. Guys like lansen destroy commercial aviation. The ''I want it right now'' mentality. No respect for people who do it differently and no patience and discipline to work your way up. P2F is also a gamble, a 40000 euro ( or even more ) gamble.

You go take your ''chance'' lansen, let's hope you don't take the ''chance'' when you are on your crosswind limit with 180 people in the back. You're probably too lazy to do a go around and fill in the paperwork afterwards so you take the ''chance'' instead.

[rogerg]

You go take your ''chance'' lansen, let's hope you don't take the ''chance'' when you are on your crosswind limit with 180 people in the back. You're probably too lazy to do a go around and fill in the paperwork afterwards so you take the ''chance'' instead.




I don't see the connection.

We all have our own way of doing things.

[lansen]

Yeah, you guys are absolutely right. I don't give a rats behind about people who are unable to afford a p2f contract.
Why would that though make me an unsafe pilot?
I am working two jobs on the side. Living on minimum monthly expenditures, simply because if the need would arise, I will have the possibility to afford a contract like this. Its far from being my prime option, but its somewhere on the table.

So, let me sum up some of your quotes to a logic here:
People who do p2f are lazy, spoiled, unsafe pilots who take risks, while all the pilots who are unable/not willing to go for a p2f contract are true aviators who just didn't get the fair chance.

[lansen]

@Frenchy

I wouldn't consider myself an aggressive person. Frankly said, I am just sharing my thoughts and if some people are intimidated by that, well then thats just how it is. My mailbox on pprune had 13 PMs since yesterday. All starting with something like "What company did you chose for p2f" "What did you pay" yada yada. If you guys are reading this now. I haven't chosen any. I am not in an active p2f contract. Simply put, its an option. An option I am someday willing to take if nothing else shows up.
Working two jobs, living on minimum expenditures. That is my life for the moment. Never would I take a loan for flightstudies, nor would I ever recommend it to somebody.

[lansen]

@P40

I admit that my wording could have been chosen in a more careful way there. Still I don't get it why people chose to work as dispatchers, cc or baggage handlers. I mean, there is simply no benefit with it, if you want to get into the cockpit. Well, you will of course tell me the opposite now, but I simply won't believe it, since I've seen my fair amount of examples that it ain't possible.
How much do you make each month? 1600€? 1800€ tops?
I am not saying that you are a bad person or that I wish that you'll never get a cockpit job. I sincerely hope that you will get a job in the cockpit soon. But what if not? What if you waste another 3-4 years in the cabin and nothing happens?
I've said it before, that I quit a job that was well paid. A job that paid more than most f/o jobs for the first 5-10 years. The reason I quit it, was to work in the cockpit. Not as a cc, a dispatcher or as a baggage handler. That said, I've already taken a HUGE risk. Why would I take another huge risk if it only costs me a certain amount to step in front of the line?

[parkfell]

The sooner P2F is confined to the history books the better.

The simple fact is that the SUPPLY and DEMAND balance allows the employer to exploit the market situation.

Once the DEMAND side of the equation strengthens, then P2F will be a thing of the past. It is simply wrong to expect junior birdmen to pay to fly the line, when by doing so, a revenue stream is being generated by the operator/employer.
How does this differ from slave labour? And, you cannot compare it to being an INTERN. They don't pay to work?


The employer is simply interested in maximising the bottom line, and don't give a to_s for the workforce.

The Regulators need to outlaw it, and ensure that there are sufficient anti avoidance regs to avoid an operator trying to circumvent the intention/spirit of the provisions.