Comms in the Gulf

[ATCO1962]

Two pleas from this ATCO and I'm almost certain I speak for most units in the Gulf;

We have callsign confusion every day now in this neck of the woods. Please, please listen carefully for your callsign and don't answer if you're not sure the call is for you. Don't worry, we'll let you know if it's you we're after :E

Secondly, when you're given frequency change instructions, don't just select the new frequency and burst forth without thinking. Count 10 seconds or wait till you can definitely identify a clear break in comms and then talk. You wouldn't believe how many important exchanges are interrupted by needless thoughtlessness and safety is compromised.

If you do that, my blood pressure will resume normal ops.

Thanks for listening.

[Emma Royds]

When it comes to call sign confusion, please can you and your controller colleagues report all occurrences when you feel the similarity between call signs is too significant.

Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.

[Panther 88]

Emma, C'mon mate. They (EK) have a working committee on this. Well at least for five years or so. It should be solved shortly.:}

[goeasy]

I couldn't agree more. See it so many times, crew rush to reply only to find it wasn't their call/clearance in the first place, but they have blocked the correct recipient giving an incorrect read-back, or frequency.

Why are radio replies seen as some sort of race? Take your time - especially on the frequency changes!

[MikeAlphaBravo]

Two very good points ATCO. RT isn't a race and good manners cost nothing, especially during frequency changes. Monitor the frequency for a few seconds and wait your turn!

[Smirre13]

When it comes to call sign confusion, please can you and your controller colleagues report all occurrences when you feel the similarity between call signs is too significant.

Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.

Emma, I think we've stopped doing the reporting, don't see any results.

About 2 years ago a local airline decided to change all their call signs by removing the '0' as the 1st digit.
The reason apparently, to reduce call sign confusion.
Result, now a lot of this airline's flight numbers are exactly the same as another airline's numbers and on similar routes...and probably for the next couple of FIRs. :ugh:

When on the frequency, no problem if it's just 2 of you.
2 days ago, 7 aircraft on frequency, all the same airline, 6 with "similar" call sign, most having the same digit at start and end with only the middle digit differing.
That is 6 extra transmissions to point that out to each and everyone.

[Reverserbucket]

Roll on CPDLC ;)

[Outatowner]

Generally we don't need an ATCO to tell us what was learnt on day one of flying training about radiotelephony but sadly in this part of the world the basics are lost, especially with indians on the air, speaking at the speed of light, the definition of a millisecond being between when one transmission ends and theirs begins, a bit like when the light goes green at an intersection.

Callsign confusion - ironic when in 3/4 of calls no one even bothers using a callsign anyway..

ATC could lift the game a little too. Answer instead of ignoring a call as often happens leaving pilots to wonder if they're on the wrong freq, how about if busy, at least say "Standby." How long does that take? Saudi, India, Oman are the worst offenders. The 'S' in ATS means 'service'

The need to constantly re-establish contact before making a call does my head in around this place. You've just been speaking on VHF, then need to re-establish contact all over again back and forth just to make another routine call. This place really is full of retards.


PS: 1962 I've had transmissions from ARR and DEP I know are to my flight but addressed to the wrong but similar flight number. ATCOs need to think before transmitting when similar numbers are in the air. It does work both ways.

The bottom line 1962 is that some commercial departments overrule all operational considerations in the flight ops department run by toothless tigers who only have the balls to pick on their own pilots, not tackle real issues.
Ahhhh... there, 1962, like you I've had a cathartic outpouring. Feels good but nothing will ever change........... Let's all meet for a beer.

[ATCO1962]

Points taken, Outatowner. We're guilty and I don't know how to solve the problem of nonchalance. From what I've gleaned from 35 years in the business, most ATC training departments around the world teach their people to answer all calls as soon as is humanly possible (there are a few exceptions to that rule, as always, but you should get an explanation as to why e.g."I had urgent co-ord going on"). I am professionally appalled at the manner of many of our brethren who seem to think that it's OK to leave pilots hanging when they're trying to establish comms.

And, mea culpa, due to the many similar callsigns around here, I've messed up, too, and wondered why the guy I wanted to answer hasn't been there. In the heat of battle and sector loadings over the 30 mark, it's not hard to see why this happens.

As pie-in-the-sky as it may seem, it would be timely for a number of the ATS providers and main airline players to get together and do something to enhance safety. Less junkets; more substantive meetings with clear targets that benefit all of us. Dreams are free; if they weren't, we'd all be poor men.

Take care and apologies from us when you haven't received the service you paid for. Cheers.

[nolimitholdem]

ATCO1962,

Thanks for the classy and humble post. The callsign similarity blame has to rest completely with EK, who has done the sum total of nothing to address it. There was briefly an initiative to use alternate callsigns, it never came to anything and was quietly removed from the company NOTAMS. Keep up the good work, men!

For those who slag the level of ATC in the UAE/Dubai, I suggest in the interests of educating themselves they take one of the APC ("the organization formerly known as the Emirates Pilots Club") El Mundo cruises. Lots of ATCO/pilots aboard and besides being a great piss-up will enlighten you as to why a lot of things that seem to make no sense, are done. The controllers in the region are as good or better than any in the world, and if you actually understood the limitations they work under you might not be so critical. The faults are 99% with the infrastructure, not the operators.

And for the EK (SUPER) heroes who constantly check in with Dubai and proceed to tie up the frequency with 15 seconds of verbal diarrhea, please...READ THE BLOODY AOI! Give your callsign, your passing level, and your type. That's it! No need to give your cleared level, the ATIS, the QNH, your squawk, your blood type, sexual preference, and on and on. YOU are the problem, not the solution.

Just f-ing read it, it's not rocket surgery.

AOI 1-30
On initial contact with ARR report:
- ACFT callsign
- Passing LVL
- ACFT type

Geezuz I'm not even Australian and I can figure it out! :ugh:

[theidler]

READ THE BLOODY AOI! Give your callsign, your passing level, and your type. That's it! No need to give your cleared level, the ATIS, the QNH, your squawk, your blood type, sexual preference, and on and on.

Doesn't the DXB arrival ATIS say something along the lines of 'on first contact with approach advise ATIS received'?



On one of the other matters I reckon going on 50% of the people I fly with don't listen out before pressing the t*t on frequency change. Just how did they get this far in this job without being put right? Why did they start doing it in the first place?

Another thing, do I have to listen to the other guy give our squawk code, and with one radiostar recently the next waypoint too, on every single frequency change all the way from the UAE up to Europe and further. Why do these people do this?

EK by the way.

[NG_Kaptain]

Nobody talks about the "other" UAE carrier.

[Emma Royds]

We are in a situation at present where it feels like it's going to take an incident for EK to sit up and address the issue of call sign confusion. None of us want to see that.

As nolimitholdem has said, the company is not choosing to tackle this issue and for reasons that I simply cannot fathom either. I appreciate that there can be issues with overflight clearances with call signs that are not the same as the flight number but these are not insurmountable. There is one European operator that uses an alpha numeric call sign on their daily outbound flight to DXB. Therefore EK has no excuse for not at least tackling the call sign confusion amongst the late evening European arrivals, that all arrive at the DESDI hold at a similar time.

Call sign confusion will not improve unless we either have an incident involving lots of paperwork or pressure to act is applied from a third party. Internal ASRs simply get dismissed on the fact that since no specific safety event (loss of separation or an RA etc) took place, then there is no problem to rectify.

I know that ATCOs in the Gulf are being stretched and putting pen to paper at the end of a shift is perhaps not something that will be a high priority, unless an incident actually took place. A few minutes of form filling might bring us a step closer to seeing a solution, to this ever growing problem. The internal mechanisms within EK are ineffective at resolving this problem at present and some external pressure may help.

[White Knight]

That then NLH will be like the EK (Tractor) Heroes who are always asked by DXB Arrivals 'Emirates xxx, confirm you're a triple seven Whiskey?' - at least every time I happen to be on the frequency

Let's face it, we have pilots on all fleets and at all airlines who have gash RT discipline and useage. If we hear the guy or girl next to us mucking it up it's up to us to tell 'em...

And what is it with all the ELP Level 6 holders who can't actually understand the RT?

[QCM]

Just a question to ATCO...why is it so important for you to know our aircraft type? Does it change anything to your ops,and you probably already know it? Could understand to add EKxxx Heavy or Super for the wake separation,but aircraft type...can only be one of 4 anyway.
Thanks.

[Outatowner]

Emma, it's because those in the commercial side of things run the airline for money not safety. It's been put to them before but they won't risk a passenger not being able to buy a ticket because he couldn't find the flight number after flight ops had it changed. Apparently there is marketing value in a flight number. Eg EK1.

The solution offered was adding suffix "A" to the callsign which procedure is still in use as recently as less than two weeks ago when I heard it done. If not, the only other option is to stay awake and pay attention which does seem to be a problem as 1962 has pointed out.

As for type notification, I believe this has to do with approach speed awareness for ATCOs. Type is on the flight plan but presumably they don't have time to dig on the APP freq. Different SOPs for different countries and the pathetic shambles of a CCI and AOI doesn't help knowing when to say or not say it. Doesn't seem to make a difference here anyway as EK adjust speed when they feel like it without advising.

[harry the cod]

theidler

No ATIS is required to be given, however, ATC will respond to your initial call with the current ATIS as a confirmation to you that that's the one in use. Departure is even easier. Call sign and passing level. That's it!

Nolimitholdem.....I'm with you on this one.

Harry

[WherewasI]

The question was raised about the requirement to state aircraft type on first contact. Around 5 years ago there were an increasing number of instances where incorrect aircraft types had been entered into the flight plan.
In the approach/arrival sector we rely on this information being correct as we use this information to create our approach sequence based on the wake turbulence separation. A number of airlines operating into Dubai specifically, use multiple aircraft types on the same routes ranging from E170 to B744.
One airline based 3 hours ESE of Dubai, arrived 99% of the time with a B738. One evening an A332 was substituted. No one caught it until he called me on arrival and I noticed the type on the strip was not the same type displayed on the radar.
What's the issue? Huge wake implications when I am trying to stuff another B738 3 miles up his exhaust pipe.
Where does the fault lay...? Short notice Airline Equipment change, Flight planning, AFTN, Assistants oversight, Controllers Familiarity bias, Pilot's expectations,... sometimes finger trouble, such as... A320 vrs A340. One digit and you 100 tonnes off in your weight calculations.

It is a minor inconvenience but could save a nasty wake encounter.

[Emma Royds]

Outatowner - You are right in how this is another fine example of EK incompetence but the callsign that is used, doesn't have to have any similarity to the flight number on a ticket. In fact some operators have totally random digits for some callsigns which bear no resemblance to the associated flight number whatsoever. The EK flight numbers don't need to change. The only time I have seen a suffix added is when there has been significant delay of some kind and the aircraft goes back to DXB with a 'D' being added on to the callsign.

QCM - I am not a controller but will answer your question. The type check on first contact is done to ensure that the controller can apply the correct wake vortex separation. Take an example where an airline is operating a flight with an A320 and at the last minute there is a tech problem and an A330 is used instead. In amongst the aircraft swap, someone somewhere forgets to change the flight plan. Wind the clock forward and the A330 descends towards a busy airport but the information from the flight plan, which is available to the approach controller, says it's an A320. So separation behind a heavy needs to be applied here but the controller thinks it's a medium instead. It could mean the controller inadvertently positions someone closer behind the A330 than they should be.

The above scenario may seem a little far fetched but it is entirely possible. There is more scope for getting types wrong in other parts of the world but with minimum separation being used most of the time in DXB, it's in the controller's interest to verify what type he or she is dealing with.

[theidler]

harry the cod

Come back to me after you've read the DXB ATIS on your next inbound.

[Buckshot16]

Informative thread ATCO, agree with it all except "Rocket Surgery" ???

[QCM]

WherewasI and Emma...all clear regarding the type,in case there is unplanned acft change...got it thanks.

[Panther 88]

I do love it when FlyDubai is asked to mention their aircraft type after having forgotten to on initial call up.

[Fack5]

asked by DXB Arrivals 'Emirates xxx, confirm you're a triple seven Whiskey?'
oops - white knight, that'd be a B 77 Whiskey, not triple 7 - according to ICAO.

[White Knight]

oops - white knight, that'd be a B 77 Whiskey, not triple 7 - according to ICAO.

Nice try Fack 5 but I've never heard it called a B77 on the air waves... Whatever ICAO states. I'm just passing on WHAT I HEAR!

Too difficult to understand?

[Fack5]

Too difficult to understand? Possibly, but you'd be the better judge of your capacity. I expect it probably is judging by your response. Anyway nothing to get your knickers in a bunch about but maybe a read of the books might be in order for you if you want to throw stones. Have a Pimms and lemonade while you're at it old boy!

I've never flown with an ELP6 who cannot understand the RT. Perhaps your command style brings out something other than the ideal? If they're gritting their teeth you're doing it wrong.

[White Knight]

Too difficult to understand? Possibly, but you'd be the better judge of your capacity. I expect it probably is judging by your response. Anyway nothing to get your knickers in a bunch about but maybe a read of the books might be in order for you if you want to throw stones. Have a Pimms and lemonade while you're at it old boy!

I've never flown with an ELP6 who cannot understand the RT. Perhaps your command style brings out something other than the ideal? If they're gritting their teeth you're doing it wrong.

A bit close to the bone old fellow? I was merely stating what I hear from our esteemed colleagues on 124.9

If you want to talk about my command style on a public forum then make sure you are correct about it otherwise it is libelous. Like me saying you have a small.....



....brain for example

[Wingman82]

And to all lost Qataries and etihad: 121.5 Mhz seems to be your company frequency in middle east region, especially Oman Airspace!Every flight I do I hear at LEAST 2-3 QTR or Eti Flights with lost or forgotten freqs...

When will it stop?

[ATCO1962]

One last thing and then I'll go sit quietly in the corner. Please use your full callsign in comms that involve a clearance/freq change or the like. If you just use the numbers, it'll mess us all up sometime. Over the last few weeks, I've had quite a few exchanges that haven't even involved any part of the callsign.

One word, maybe two: professionalism and pride. Let's all up our games.

[Kennytheking]

ATCO, had a run in with one of your mates last night about this callsign business. You are correct.......how about a bit of professionalism and pride from that side of the mic as well.

My comms is better than average and yup. heaven forbid I should slip up and forget to mention my callsign in the heat of the moment.....but ffs, it was like I had pissed in his flower garden.

[Laker]

The AOI reads "state your call sign, type, and passing level on initial contact." It does not state "ONLY state your call sign, type, and passing level." The Dubai ATIS CLEARLY states "Report information X on first contact with arrival." It looks like, as with every major airport in the world, you are expected to state the current ATIS on first contact with OMDB arrival in addition to the items listed in the AOI. Not surprisingly every aircraft that checks on with just passing level and type is queried as to whether or not they have the current ATIS. This omission just adds one more exchange to a busy frequency.

The different ICAO definitions for a 777 are:
777 200/ER - 772
777 200LR/Freighter- 77L
777-300 - 773
777 300ER- 77W

Lets not forget our colleagues are worked to the limit crossing as many as 12 time zones and flying upwards of 90 hours plus ground duties month in and month out. Many have gone years with no more than 30 days of leave, often broken up into 7 days or less with 90 hours of flying built around the leave. Effectively making leave worthless. When people are chronically overworked they tend to make small mistakes. Lets not jump all over each other for being human from time to time.

[ATCO1962]

HI Kenny

We're slowly introducing the concepts inherent in CRM to our boys through human factors courses but the older guys usually haven't been to one of the courses and have come through pretty brutal training regimes to get to where they are today and don't suffer fools easily. All I can say is that it's such a pleasure to work with pilots and controllers who obviously love their work and try to ensure that their professionalism is exhibited on the frequency. You're going to always have the bad apples but let's talk to these guys and model good behaviour on the frequency.

Look forward to hearing from you all soon.

[Emma Royds]

ATCO, had a run in with one of your mates last night about this callsign business. You are correct.......how about a bit of professionalism and pride from that side of the mic as well.

My comms is better than average and yup. heaven forbid I should slip up and forget to mention my callsign in the heat of the moment.....but ffs, it was like I had pissed in his flower garden.

I find that the tension and stress felt by the controllers at UAE ACC when it's busy, can be very noticeable of the R/T. The rate of speech and tone that is used by the controller, are often good indicators. The staffing issues and low morale at SZC that are mentioned on other threads, give an insight into a workplace that seems to have more than its fair share of problems. We as pilots based in the UAE, know only too well that you as controllers are dealing with ever growing levels of traffic in a small area of airspace.

The airwaves are most certainly NOT the place to discuss the finer points of airmanship or RT etiquette. To our controller friends, if a pilot is not using their full callsign then just say 'Use your full callsign'. That is a short and clear message which should be easily understood. There is no need to say any more nor raise your voice as I have heard previously on the odd occasion. If someone really pisses you off then follow it up and report it but please don't enter into highly heated discussions on the R/T. If the offender is a UAE operator that is inbound, then ask the pilot to give you or your superior a quick call when they have landed. If it's a choice between a quick call to resolve an issue or starting a paperwork exercise, I suspect pilots and controllers would both probably prefer the phone call.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for the guys and girls that I speak to at DXB and also at UAE ACC. The standard of controlling is high in a demanding environment. We at EK are working harder than ever in a company environment that generates many challenges as well. Often when we are arriving into DXB we are very tired and work hard to ensure that we are operating to the high standard that we have personal pride in maintaining. We are only human and can make errors and welcome when errors are pointed out. Please do so in a concise and composed manner and it will be very much appreciated. :ok:

[springbok449]

Sometimes we don't do ourselves any favours though...
Was coming back from Europe one night last week and one of my colleagues 2000' above was obviously trying his best to overtake us despite the fact that we were already at CI300, he was most put out when the UAE controller kept them high and his EAT was 5 mins later than ours despite the fact that he was slightly in front.
Started questioning the controller who politely replied, if you want to understand how things work here please come and pay us a visit...
Seems that he was kind of "sin binned" as he ended up in the hold for way longer than his original EAT.