Landing during cross country time

[MitchStick]

I always knew that to log cross country time you needed to do a landing at an airport more than 25 nautical miles from the point of the departure (to meet aeronautical experience)
But what is a landing?

Does a touch and go WITHOUT actually touching the ground with the skids count?
If yes where does it says that.

I always been doing it like that but now the place I work for requires for the cross country to be valid to touch with the skids the runway,I can't find any info to support one way or the other though.

Thanks all.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

When I did my CPL x country (a very long time ago) you had to take a form to ATC and ask them to sign off that you had landed and not been a complete c**k

SND

[Gordy]

I always knew that to log cross country time you needed to do a landing at an airport more than 25 nautical miles from the point of the departure (to meet aeronautical experience)
But what is a landing?

Not so in FAA land except for meeting the requirements for certificate or rating. After that---any flight time NOT in the vicinity of an airport is cross country.

[MitchStick]

Yeah, I know but that's not what I asked and you're wrong anyways, cross country time as defined in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i). is time that includes any flight conducted by a pilot in an aircraft that includes a LANDING at a point other than the point of departure that includes the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

So if you fly somewhere and you don't land, that's not a cross country, and that bring us back to my original question:

What's a landing?

To be counted as a landing does the skids have to physically touch the airport surface or an approach in to a hover than a take off counts as well.

I cannot find any references about this.

[krypton_john]

It's hard to believe anyone or anything could define a "landing" as something that doesn't involve touching land, isn't it?

[MitchStick]

yes maybe you're right, but as far as FAA goes I could't find any regs that confirm it, maybe landing and touch down are two different things..or maybe not.

[Gordy]

Mitchstick:

Yeah, I know but that's not what I asked and you're wrong anyways,

Clearly you did NOT, because YOU yourself have now determined you do NOT need to fly 25nm to log cross country.

In the meantime, I could help you further but you will learn by researching yourself. The law in the US is based upon "Juris Prudence", or in layman's terms "precedence". In an administrative hearing with NTSB law judges, (I have done a few), you will argue that you case is either "like" case # X and therefore precedence has been set in your favor....OR....you will argue that your case differs from case # X and therefore you are correct. If they see fit, they will issue a new order. Have fun researching the definition of a "landing":

NTSB Database Search of legal findings (http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/_layouts/ntsb.common.onoweb/query.aspx)

[chopjock]

Mitchstick,

Why do you want to know? Are you trying to avoid a landing fee?

[SilsoeSid]

What's a landing?

To be counted as a landing does the skids have to physically touch the airport surface or an approach in to a hover than a take off counts as well.

I cannot find any references about this.

Maybe there's a reason for that Mitch. :ugh: I think Krypton John sums it up nicely in his post for you :ok:

The way I look at it, a question for you; in your emergency drills should you reach the point of reading "Land as soon as ..... ", what would you do? :rolleyes:


Maybe landing and touch down are two different things
Priceless .... is that like the anomalies with a try and a touchdown; where the award of a try is once the objective has been achieved and with a touchdown the ball doesn't actually have to touch the ground?

[Hughes500]

Mitchstick

Here is the Oxford dictionary on line quote
An instance of coming or bringing something to land, either from the air or from water:
we made a perfect landing at the airstrip

Now I know those form across the pond speak the Queen's English slightly differently but ..............

Now if you don't understand that then there is no hope for you
May I be so bold as to ask why do you want to know, sounds like you are about to be prosecuted for something ???:ugh:

[BOBAKAT]

Landing or not landing....That is the question....

If you can proof your landing...It's a landing.....If you can't is not..... Simply...

Proof is : Landing fees report, stamp from "C" in your log book...etc...

[evil7]

Think about this:

If you can land without touching the ground then you might as well log flight time and landings without even sitting in a helicopter. Just pretent you have done the flight and landing:rolleyes::ok:

[TeeS]

Hi Mitch

I think you may be confusing the requirements of a qualifying cross country flight (for issue of a licence etc.) and a cross country flight as logged in your personal log book.

I haven't been able to find a definition, as such, in European regulations or ICAO references but basically if you depart an airfield, navigate your way around, out of the circuit, and land at an airfield (even the same one you departed from) you will have completed a cross country flight and log it as such. The CAA used to require the flight was at least 4 miles from the point of departure but I don't think that exists anymore.

Cheers

TeeS

[rotarywise]

I wondered how long it would be before the old 4 (actually 3) miles from the point of departure was quoted. This has never been the definition of a cross-country flight except very specifically in relation to the privileges of an AFI. For TeeS benefit, the EU definition of a cross-country flight is to be found in FCL.010:
‘Cross-country’ means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures.
As to the definition of 'landing', Miriam Webster has it as:an act of returning to the ground or another surface after a flight So returning to a hover is, of course, not a landing

[TeeS]

Thanks Rotarywise, I lied a bit in that I had read the FCL.010 bit but didn't have the reference with me to refer to - hence what I think was a fairly close interpretation of it in my response. Again, the 4 miles was a bit of a memory thing from the distant past but that was what the CAA required of me when I was applying for my CPL, I've still got the pencil ticks in my log book from when I was counting them up.

Cheers

TeeS

[MitchStick]

I'm not getting prosecuted or trying to avoid a landing fee.

The thing I'm trying to find out is who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong.

I have a friend who works at a flight school and for "landing" they count an approach to the runway to a hover and than take off.
We at the flight school I work for count it as a landing when we actually touch the skids, a hover over the spot doesn't count.

So how this two flight schools came to this two different conclusions?

[SilsoeSid]

Mitch, do your or your friends respective flight schools tech logs/SRP's log the number of landings?

[TeeS]

Mitchstick, you are complicating this beyond reason. If the requirements are to fly a route, landing at a site other than at the final destination then you have to touch the skids/wheels down somewhere enroute. Which bit of 'landing' is difficult to understand here?

Rotarywise, the ANO still refers to the 3 mile cross country definition but now that we are Europeans, it is only applicable to national licences.

TeeS

[MitchStick]

Yes we do Silsoe

[canterbury crusader]

To be fair, a lot of people are required to log their time at the controls while machine is at ground idle as flight time so although the original question sounds silly, some regulalations are equally so.

[grumpytroll]

This question is not about whether you have to land or not. Its about an argument/ego battle between some pilots who work at competing flight schools.

Now here is the real answer. land your damn aircraft and don't worry about what aaanybody else is doing. Who TF cares what the real definition of land is? If there is any question in your mind about what it means or what you are supposed to do, land, touch down, plant the sucker, slide er on, kiss mother earth.

Here let me help you with this: FAA/EASA/ or whoever you fall under inspector asks, "did you LAND at all of these airports?" If you actually landed then you can answer calmly and confidently, "YES", and no one can or will ever question you further. There will be no video or eyewitness testimony that can ever contradict your answer and you can pass a lie detector test. AND, no one will ever be able to challenge your judgement on this issue because the regs say to "land" and that is exactly what you did! You don't have to worry about how anyone else accomplished this lofty goal. All you need to worry your pretty little head about is that you did it absolutely and unequivocally correct.

It ain't brain surgery, that's why you don't have to be a brain surgeon to do it.

Hope that helps.

[evil7]

@canterbury

They should not log it as "flight time" but they should log it as "PIC time"!
Because if something goes wrong during ground idle and you are at the controls you surely would be "in charge" of the outcome (damage, injuries and worse!)

[ShyTorque]

It seems to me that some here are confusing the requirements of a "qualifying cross country flight" and the definition of "cross country".

[Thracian]

It seems to me that some here are confusing the requirements of a "qualifying cross country flight" and the definition of "cross country".

Ok, my 2 cents:

Any contact with earth is a landing.
A good landing is, where you could walk away from.
A great landing is, when you could use the aircraft again.

For the qualifying solo cross country flight during license training, a given distance has to be flown between the airfields, and you have to land there (I had to get stamps from "C", meaning to shut the engine down and leave it).

With your license in the pocket, a cross country flight is anything out of visibility of the traffic pattern. A landing is not necessary.
Otherwise, taking off in Berlin, Germany, flying a sight seeing tour to the Baltic Sea and going back for the landing to Berlin would count as "local". Sounds strange.

And: Flight time is the time where no part of the aircraft touches ground.
Time between rotors starting to turn and rotors ending to turn, is called "block time" or "PIC time". So a usual flight in a H300 has about 5 minutes of block time before (engaging clutch, checking magnetos, checking free wheeling unit, contacting tower) and also 5 minutes of block time after air time (cooling down, shutting down).

That's how I count it

Thracian

[SilsoeSid]

Mitch - "What's a landing?"

Mitch, do your or your friends respective flight schools tech logs/SRP's log the number of landings?

Yes we do Silsoe

So, when you complete those official & accountable tech logs/SRP's, what definition of a landing do you use?

[MitchStick]

Grumpytroll you really live up to your name cos you sound kind of grumpy, there is no argument and no one is competing with no one, I guess since there isn't an actual definition of the term landing two different Chief flight instructors use their own interpretation of the regs, it's like logging flight time, like canterbury said a lot of people log flight time from the time the engine starts and not collective time i.e. time off the ground.

Silsoe I have my own definition of landing but not an official one.
Since I'm relatively new to the industry I was trying to find out if there actually was a specific definition of the term landing and apparently there isn't so what everyone is saying is just their interpretation and what they think, but until you show me an FAA or EASA regs my question still stand.

It's the same think for PIC experience, the FAA states that to carry passengers I need three take offs and three landing within the preceding 90 days, so according to this all I need is going to the ramp, start the helicopter, pick it up in to a hover, set it down, repeat that 3 times and I'm done right?

I doubt that's how is done but tell me what's wrong with that? I "take off" in to a hover than I "land" back on the ramp.

I think the simple answer is that some regs are just open to interpretation, (unless someone comes up with an actual official definition of take off and landing) because helicopters operate in a different way than fix-wings.

[henry_crun]

To the layman (which I am), a landing is by common sense complete only if you land, stop the engine, get out and kiss your girlfriend.

I cite royal precedent, where the girl was called Kate. :E


Serious note - this proves that you are able to restart the engine unaided, which surely is part of the test objective.

[Helilog56]

Another enlightening kindergarten thread for the masses......:ugh:

[MitchStick]

To the layman (which I am), a landing is by common sense complete only if you land, stop the engine, get out and kiss your girlfriend.

:E :E :E :E :E

[Hughes500]

Helilog

Does make you wonder doesn't it !!!!!!!:rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoe I have my own definition of landing but not an official one.

I bet sloping ground landings are a piece of cake round your way Mitch.
:hmm:

[500guy]

There is an FAA letter of interpretation out there relating to the three takeoffs and landings required to establish currency. In the letter it says a takeoff is a transition from a stationary position to forward flight and altitude. Landing, is the act of transitioning from altitude to a stationary position. You could make the argument that an approach to a low hover counts as a landing according to their definitions. But why bother. touch the ground and go.

[Torquetalk]

"I bet sloping ground landings are a piece of cake round your way Mitch"


Next time I get an out of limits slope landing, I am going to record half a landing.


TT

[SilsoeSid]

Helicopter Instructor's Handbook: FAA-H-8083-4
By Federal Aviation Administration, US Department of Transportation


http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/fa69b14257b2e3f40a56d17842d2436c_zpsogs2z1dr.jpg

:ok:

[MitchStick]

There is an FAA letter of interpretation out there relating to the three takeoffs and landings required to establish currency. In the letter it says a takeoff is a transition from a stationary position to forward flight and altitude. Landing, is the act of transitioning from altitude to a stationary position.

Does an air taxi and quick stop count then? :p:p:p

[SilsoeSid]

Wow Mitch, your hovering that good to be considered stationary?
:rolleyes:

[mdovey]

As a PPL(H) student, if it is exercise 25, I log it as cross country.

As regards landing away - for the qualifying cross-country, my flight school requires me to get my log book signed (I don't think this is a strict CAA requirement but seems good practice in case queries are raised is there is an audit). In any case, there is also the landing fee to pay. I think if I hovered over to the tower and tried to do either of these without putting the aircraft down, switching off the engine and getting out, my instructor might ask serious questions about my suitability to fly!

As regards currency to carry passengers - if I was that low on flights in the last three months, I think I would be asking for a check flight before carrying passengers rather than worrying if bouncing the helicopter from ground to hover a few times would count!

Matthew