Landing during cross country time

[MitchStick]

I always knew that to log cross country time you needed to do a landing at an airport more than 25 nautical miles from the point of the departure (to meet aeronautical experience)
But what is a landing?

Does a touch and go WITHOUT actually touching the ground with the skids count?
If yes where does it says that.

I always been doing it like that but now the place I work for requires for the cross country to be valid to touch with the skids the runway,I can't find any info to support one way or the other though.

Thanks all.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

When I did my CPL x country (a very long time ago) you had to take a form to ATC and ask them to sign off that you had landed and not been a complete c**k

SND

[Gordy]

I always knew that to log cross country time you needed to do a landing at an airport more than 25 nautical miles from the point of the departure (to meet aeronautical experience)
But what is a landing?

Not so in FAA land except for meeting the requirements for certificate or rating. After that---any flight time NOT in the vicinity of an airport is cross country.

[MitchStick]

Yeah, I know but that's not what I asked and you're wrong anyways, cross country time as defined in 14 CFR 61.1(b)(3)(i). is time that includes any flight conducted by a pilot in an aircraft that includes a LANDING at a point other than the point of departure that includes the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

So if you fly somewhere and you don't land, that's not a cross country, and that bring us back to my original question:

What's a landing?

To be counted as a landing does the skids have to physically touch the airport surface or an approach in to a hover than a take off counts as well.

I cannot find any references about this.

[krypton_john]

It's hard to believe anyone or anything could define a "landing" as something that doesn't involve touching land, isn't it?

[MitchStick]

yes maybe you're right, but as far as FAA goes I could't find any regs that confirm it, maybe landing and touch down are two different things..or maybe not.

[Gordy]

Mitchstick:

Yeah, I know but that's not what I asked and you're wrong anyways,

Clearly you did NOT, because YOU yourself have now determined you do NOT need to fly 25nm to log cross country.

In the meantime, I could help you further but you will learn by researching yourself. The law in the US is based upon "Juris Prudence", or in layman's terms "precedence". In an administrative hearing with NTSB law judges, (I have done a few), you will argue that you case is either "like" case # X and therefore precedence has been set in your favor....OR....you will argue that your case differs from case # X and therefore you are correct. If they see fit, they will issue a new order. Have fun researching the definition of a "landing":

NTSB Database Search of legal findings

[chopjock]

Mitchstick,

Why do you want to know? Are you trying to avoid a landing fee?

[SilsoeSid]

What's a landing?

To be counted as a landing does the skids have to physically touch the airport surface or an approach in to a hover than a take off counts as well.

I cannot find any references about this.

Maybe there's a reason for that Mitch. I think Krypton John sums it up nicely in his post for you

The way I look at it, a question for you; in your emergency drills should you reach the point of reading "Land as soon as ..... ", what would you do?

Maybe landing and touch down are two different things

Priceless .... is that like the anomalies with a try and a touchdown; where the award of a try is once the objective has been achieved and with a touchdown the ball doesn't actually have to touch the ground?

[Hughes500]

Mitchstick

Here is the Oxford dictionary on line quote
An instance of coming or bringing something to land, either from the air or from water:
we made a perfect landing at the airstrip

Now I know those form across the pond speak the Queen's English slightly differently but ..............

Now if you don't understand that then there is no hope for you
May I be so bold as to ask why do you want to know, sounds like you are about to be prosecuted for something ???

[BOBAKAT]

Landing or not landing....That is the question....

If you can proof your landing...It's a landing.....If you can't is not..... Simply...

Proof is : Landing fees report, stamp from "C" in your log book...etc...

[evil7]

Think about this:

If you can land without touching the ground then you might as well log flight time and landings without even sitting in a helicopter. Just pretent you have done the flight and landing

[TeeS]

Hi Mitch

I think you may be confusing the requirements of a qualifying cross country flight (for issue of a licence etc.) and a cross country flight as logged in your personal log book.

I haven't been able to find a definition, as such, in European regulations or ICAO references but basically if you depart an airfield, navigate your way around, out of the circuit, and land at an airfield (even the same one you departed from) you will have completed a cross country flight and log it as such. The CAA used to require the flight was at least 4 miles from the point of departure but I don't think that exists anymore.

Cheers

TeeS

[rotarywise]

I wondered how long it would be before the old 4 (actually 3) miles from the point of departure was quoted. This has never been the definition of a cross-country flight except very specifically in relation to the privileges of an AFI. For TeeS benefit, the EU definition of a cross-country flight is to be found in FCL.010:

‘Cross-country’ means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures.

As to the definition of 'landing', Miriam Webster has it as:

an act of returning to the ground or another surface after a flight

So returning to a hover is, of course, not a landing

[TeeS]

Thanks Rotarywise, I lied a bit in that I had read the FCL.010 bit but didn't have the reference with me to refer to - hence what I think was a fairly close interpretation of it in my response. Again, the 4 miles was a bit of a memory thing from the distant past but that was what the CAA required of me when I was applying for my CPL, I've still got the pencil ticks in my log book from when I was counting them up.

Cheers

TeeS

[MitchStick]

I'm not getting prosecuted or trying to avoid a landing fee.

The thing I'm trying to find out is who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong.

I have a friend who works at a flight school and for "landing" they count an approach to the runway to a hover and than take off.
We at the flight school I work for count it as a landing when we actually touch the skids, a hover over the spot doesn't count.

So how this two flight schools came to this two different conclusions?

[SilsoeSid]

Mitch, do your or your friends respective flight schools tech logs/SRP's log the number of landings?

[TeeS]

Mitchstick, you are complicating this beyond reason. If the requirements are to fly a route, landing at a site other than at the final destination then you have to touch the skids/wheels down somewhere enroute. Which bit of 'landing' is difficult to understand here?

Rotarywise, the ANO still refers to the 3 mile cross country definition but now that we are Europeans, it is only applicable to national licences.

TeeS

[MitchStick]

Yes we do Silsoe

[canterbury crusader]

To be fair, a lot of people are required to log their time at the controls while machine is at ground idle as flight time so although the original question sounds silly, some regulalations are equally so.