Wizz Air MPL - CTC [Archive]

tcm13

25th Apr 2015, 20:58

RedBullGaveMeWings hmmmm....

All talk and no experience it seems... The MPL is a great course and is the most relevant to airliner flying which is what 90% of pilots who graduate aim to do- with this being the case why not introduce multi pilot ops in the early stages of training and on jet simulators? In those 90 hours of flying real aircraft they will be at the same if not to a better standard than student taking the traditional route by the end.

And I'm guessing your aiming to be based in Europe when you get a job? Might I suggest that you save some of those 100 hours of "busy US airspace flying" for back in Europe as it will be a shock to to system.

Plastic787 it's a competency based course and they are continually assessed as well as having progress tests along the way. Its hard to compare the Single pilot MEIR exam and the final exam MPL students have to complete but its not easier. They have to do all the same things we had to do on our IR test but with failures and complex operational procedures along the way- I can see where your coming from thinking its easier as its multi crew but as they are assessed on this also they have to have effective CRM skills which can often go out the window in high work load situations if not trained properly, hence the reason why its introduced so early on.

Any way thats my 2 cents!

march21

28th Apr 2015, 07:47

So I believe they will stop hiring F/Os after launching this programme... Great!

FlyingStone

28th Apr 2015, 08:26

Only if they will find enough [very smart people] to pay for the MPL scheme...

future-pilot

30th Apr 2015, 11:49

I've just been confirmed that the WIZZAIR cadet pilot programme will be initially an Integrated ATPL and MPL from next year. Will be interesting to hear about the programme finance, anyone has a clue about costs?

LandingConfig

30th Apr 2015, 11:55

No, they are releasing that in the coming weeks.

thoughts

9th May 2015, 00:27

Just to clarify what is on offer from CTC and Wizz Air.

Pay £109k, work for Wizz earning €18k (£13k-basically UK minimum wage), live somewhere you have never heard of and can hardly point to on a map (not necessarily a bad place to live but not the UK near family etc), regularly waking up at 3am, -20C.

Would it ever be possible to pay £109k of debt off ever?

I understand that many budding pilots will proudly state that their love of flying is so strong that they would work for free! However upon returning to your base and then struggling to pay for a bus home you may feel it's not quite what you were expecting.

It seems like exploitation to me.

thoughts

9th May 2015, 00:34

Also, as the Wizz Air requirement is only 500 hrs on aircraft (any) then it would probably be a much better option to complete modular training for a fraction of the cost. I also know that TCX recently recruited low hour NTR modular pilots for the 320/1.

thoughts

11th May 2015, 06:43

RedBull - I think you are way off the mark. The cost of living may be cheaper in Eastern Europe; however, if you want to live by western standards you will find that accommodation of that standard has a high premium on it and as a result you have to pay a comparable sum regardless of location.

I think Wizz Air and CTC are directly to blame. They take advantage of someone willing to sign up to this scheme putting them in a difficult financial position. This directly affects flight safety, any pilot in this position will not be calling in sick to miss out on flight pay/salary.

Will they be well rested in suitable accommodation, well fed and in a fit state of mind to fly. With such huge financial pressures I'm sure you will agree it's questionable!

FlyingStone

11th May 2015, 15:24

Pay £109k, work for Wizz earning €18k (£13k-basically UK minimum wage), live somewhere you have never heard of and can hardly point to on a map (not necessarily a bad place to live but not the UK near family etc), regularly waking up at 3am, -20C.

While I agree that paying 100+ k€ for CPL/MPL training is insane and should qualify one as mentally unfit to fly, you should be aware not everybody is/was lucky enough to land their first job at likes of BA, LH, AF, etc.

And while Wizz Air doesn't pay in gold, you don't need to put anything upfront for the type rating (compared to almost 30k€ in RYR) and you get to fly new A320s a lot (900h/year), which means your options to go somewhere else open significantly in couple of months/years. And as mentioned before, there is nowhere written that this is a commuting contract. If you want and you are able (time-wise and financially) to commute, fine - nobody will stop you.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think many people from UK have this condescending view - comparing capital cities of Eastern Europe to the likes of North Korea, Africa, etc. I would really like to know what "living by Western standards" means though. Please explain, so we can be enlightened as well.

FlyingStone

11th May 2015, 21:09

Call me condescending but when I see a girl of around twelve years old being allowed by her parents to openly defacate in the street or I watch old ladies rummaging around in bins for food then eating it straight away I am quite happy to make the judgement that these are not places I would like to live and certainly not western by any standards.

I'm quite sure you could find a place like this in London or in any other large city in Western Europe.

FlyingStone the trend is for airlines in the West to be committing purely to cadet schemes so the door is closed to direct entry in most cases unless you get lucky. Where are you proposing that these people can go after their time at Wizz when all the other airlines are only interested in taking their own cadets? This is the problem here.

So in the last 12 months (as in representing the latest trend) Ryanair, British Airways, Thomson, jet2, Monarch, easyJet and Thomas Cook have hired only cadets?

thoughts

12th May 2015, 11:21

Although Wizz do not make you pay for the TR upfront your salary is reduced by around €1000 for 18-24 months (perhaps someone can confirm the exact details). This is a bit cheeky as Wizz get Airbus training credits included with their new aircraft and yet they will still insist on salary deduction.

So if you are on a LIT FO contract and were non type rated your salary would be €18k-€12k(€1000/month TR deduction)=€6k+sector pay.

This directly affects flight safety. With a salary this low no one will be willing to miss the opportunity to fly earning valuable sector pay when they are in fact sick/unfit to fly!

Please correct me if I am wrong but flight safety has to come first, if you agree with this MPL scheme, low salary and questionable employment practices then you are not considering flight safety at the forefront of you decisions.

Redbull - No one is forced to sign these contracts but Wizz have a duty to ensure high standards of flight safety. I am not convinced that the scenarios discussed provide enough of a guarantee that flight safety will not be compromised.

Poland is not the same as many other countries with Wizz bases.

afusaru

8th Jun 2015, 07:42

In the end it's all about money for you but saw a lot of guys stating in this forum 'if you do it for the money than better stop now'; wherever you go, within your first years you won't make much.
Don't tell me that with BA, EZY, etc you make a fortune in the first years?

You talk about how little you get with this scheme but remember how much some pay to fly. You figure out what is better, go get a modular training (which is indeed a lot less than this wizz scheme), pay some TR, and when you see nobody wants you, you start P2F until you're out of money or probably someone will hire you. Or, embark any scheme you can, fly and make some money so you can live until you get some hours and you will be able to go for a better payed flying job. Do the maths and see what's better

As I see it, if you love it and want to do it, then go for it...you won't be able to save money in your first years but you'll be able to live, to get a rent, to buy food and go in holidays in the end that's the most important thing (at least for me) in life, to do what you love the most and to be able to live out of it. Most of our life we spend it at work so why not to be happy of what we are doing.

There are probably other better opportunities but, they are not for everyone. To get a loan for most of the schemes now, they require you to have a property in UK.

I read someone said, this scheme is no good for long term either? Why not? With time, you'll start making more many and if still not satisfied, what stops you from looking for another airline?

I see a lot of people against this scheme but I see no proper documented point as why is not a good one.

As for the living standards, lots of guys did/are doing bush flying, flew in the jungle just at some point to get a better life. They all have my respect for their willing to succeed and their courage. Don't tell me that Hungary, Poland or Romania is worse than those places.
It is a chance for someone who wants to fly but has no money, no support whatsoever..or someone who's not risking to pay for training without the guarantee of a job.

In the end it's all about flying...money you will make them if you want them and you're smart enough.

afusaru

8th Jun 2015, 12:15

Maybe the name of the topic should be changed as I can see they are going to train you for CPL/ME/IR. And is not only with CTC.

The CEFA has launched the website, saw that they are going to do 2 phases online. How will that be?

Does anyone have experience with Martinair? Any feedback?

Thanks

theiceman747

8th Jun 2015, 15:17

Sorry for asking,

But i can't find a post related about a deal within CTC - RYANAIR which is very similar to this thread, any recent info about the the partnership within CTC and RYR?

Thanks.

Maverick72

8th Jun 2015, 19:32

Speedbird1997

8th Jun 2015, 20:39

forget the poor salary, its the colour of the planes that worries me :uhoh:

schienenschreck

11th Jun 2015, 05:34

Hi dudes,

I attended the CTC roadshow for Wizz Air, and tought it interesting to share the details.

Training will start in 14th of September, with application and selection in july.
Guess what everyone is interested about is the pricing: GBP 93,000 (EUR 128,000) for the full program, with a 7K deposit and the rest paid in 13 installments. The selection fee is GBP 245, also class 1 medical needs to be from an approved partner so according to them GBP 400. Food and personal insurance is not included in the price but everything else is - landing / testing fees, if you need more time in aircraft you get it for free, plane tickets to training facilities, accomodation etc.

The A320 Type Rating is included in the price. A guy asked about the starting salary, which they were unwilling to give out for some reason. They explained that its reasonable to pay back a loan within 5-7 years while not "starving to death", but all contracts are different so no exact numbers. They are working with banks to open up this kind of loan as its backed by a wizz job guarantee. The usual structure is pay less or nothing in the first 2 years and pay a higher amount later once you are SFO or Capt - then it wont hurt.

You become SFO in 1500 hrs (your 2nd year)
Capt. from 3500 hrs
possibly training capt. from 4500 hrs
Pay increase each 1K hrs flown from then on

You will fly about 850 hrs a year, usually on a 6/4 schedule.

Kinda fishy, because you are at the airlines mercy. Not sure if you know the terms of the employment before you sign up for the 93,000 GBP program, but according to them you are considered an employee from day 1 when you start training.

Salary starts about 2 weeks after you have graduated from CTC. They are looking for 28 trainees in 2015, and this is a 5 year program which means CTC will train several hundred Wizz pilots from scratch. According to Wizz they had to hire 200 pilots last year alone to meet the demand, and are expecting to increase this each year.

Another important thing is in case you start the training, but fail at some point and you have to drop out then all costs are refunded to you apart from the 7K deposit.

Good luck to all!

ManUtd1999

11th Jun 2015, 09:08

Intriguing post, certainly looks like the scheme has its merits but it seems very vague at the moment.More detail needed.

A guy asked about the starting salary, which they were unwilling to give out for some reason. They explained that its reasonable to pay back a loan within 5-7 years while not "starving to death", but all contracts are different so no exact numbers.
They're going to have to release it at some point, signing up for a 93,000 grand course without knowing the starting salary is obscene. They maybe just haven't finalised it.

They are working with banks to open up this kind of loan as its backed by a wizz job guarantee.
If Wizzair are guaranteeing the loan (which I doubt), then the scheme becomes much more attractive.

The usual structure is pay less or nothing in the first 2 years and pay a higher amount later once you are SFO or Capt - then it wont hurt.
Meanwhile the interest will be piling up. I'm no expert but I'd be looking to pay off as much debt as my salary allowed, not take a break until upgrading.

afusaru

11th Jun 2015, 09:39

28 trainees with CTC, and probably 12 with CEFA. Wizz Air first said they are looking for up to 40 trainees in the first year. Also on the CEFA website it says they have the capacity to train 12 persons.

As for the Wizz Air acting as a guarantor, that is the idea of offering you that conditional contract of employment when you start your training, that way you can borrow the needed money. As previously said, they are still talking to the banks, more information will be released soon.

But indeed, you must know the salary first before signing any contract so you can plan if you can pay the money back from your salary or no.

Another important point is there will be assessments centers in Hungary, Poland, Romania and UK.

schienenschreck

11th Jun 2015, 11:11

Wizzair will not ever guarantee the loan, that would be quite the treat, but they do guarantee a job after successful graduation or money back. Meaning a bank might just be able to finance this as you have a written guarantee to receive work and salary.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the reasoning that they must reveal the salary - from entry level on - in order to make a proper decision. If the flight training is an investment, then you need to know the returns as well.

jamesbond6

12th Jun 2015, 20:18

They have shown a "typical" salary scheme today in Warsaw:

FO
€20k base, 36k total
SFO (from 1500h)
25k base, 45 total
CPT (from 3500h)
40k base, 81 total
Then, as mentioned, some increase every 1000h flown

ShotOne

13th Jun 2015, 12:12

Has anyone considering signing actually done any basic maths? The pay, and I use the term loosely, barely covers loan repayments. How would even the most enthusiastic applicant live, eat, travel to work etc? I disagree with those who term this slavery. Slaves are at least fed.

theiceman747

14th Jun 2015, 13:04

Anyone going for something like this is go with your eyes wide open. You know from to start what you are facing. Just use your calculator and do your maths... and yes, take into account 'the worst case scenario', that means to do your maths with the lower salary possible.

Take a loan of -120.000 € (few thousands more or less). If you have some funds which you will use to pay a part of your flight training, count on a loan of for example -100.000€. All goes well, flight training done and TR, flying and starting to get a salary. How much you will need to LIVE? If you get a salary of 2000€, half of that is for loan reapayments every months so you get 1000€ to live, for some years. Maybe in 5-7 years you can start to make your own money.

Everybody considering this, do your maths and consider your future.

Bank never losses, people do.

afusaru

14th Jun 2015, 18:45

Jamesbond6, those are gross or net salaries?

jamesbond6

14th Jun 2015, 20:04

I did not pay attention or it wasn't clear on the slide and nobody asked for this clarification later. It is both safe and sensible to assume those numbers are before tax.

schienenschreck

16th Jun 2015, 08:36

Do the maths... Should be easy for you aspiring pilots:

128K loan, and 4% interest rate (I think this is reasonable, maybe even a bit on the lower side considering eastern europe). If you are lucky then maybe the interest rate is fixed for the entire period, since a time will come in the not too distant future where interest rates will rise... you dont want to be on the sucker end of a 100K plus loan with your interest rate doubling, believe me.

Back on topic:

128K loan, 4% interest annualy:

Initial deposit:€0.00
Loan payments:€146,967.01
Balloon payment at end:€0.00
Total payable:€146,967.01
84 monthly payments of:€1,749.61
Total interest:€18,967.01

This means, that if you want to repay your loan in 7 years you would need to pay €1,749.61 each and every month. The interest you will pay over 7 years equals €18,967.01.

If you want to pay back your loan in 6 years, then make this €2,002.58, but then you pay less interest obviously, "only" €16,186.01.

These are actually only simplified numbers, because you dont take the loan in one lump sum, but you also wont make any repayments until you start working (ca 2 years), all the while interest is accruing.

Lets take the salary side into consideration:

FO
€20k base, 36k total
SFO (from 1500h)
25k base, 45 total
CPT (from 3500h)
40k base, 81 total

You fly 850h a year. Meaning for the first year you will earn 36K total and you will have to pay 20 995 Euros as a loan repayment. The rest 16K is what remains for taxes and to live. I dont think this is doable. If your net is 30% less than your gross pay, then there will only remain around 5000 Euros for the whole first and most of the second year after repayment of the loan.

When you become SFO then 10 000 will remain ( your 3rd year most likely, it takes 22 months to reach 1500 hrs). From then on you will reach captain in a total of 48 months. By this time you have paid off about half of your loan, and if you earn 81K gross, with the usual 21K loan payment a year, then there remains 36K for living. At this point its quite easily done.

After 84 months you are officially student loan free, and can enjoy all the benefits of flying on a relatively high salary.

Of course the bank might understand this model, so they might offer you something along the lines of first 2 years is interest only: This means you would pay around 500 Euros a month, and the real repayment will start only when you are SFO. Thats kinda doable, but then you have to expect around 10 years until you repay your loan, which is in my opinion a long time. Especially if you are young and want kids etc.

Living the dream on 10,000 Euros a year. Just fyi, you can easily earn this much as an IT support guy on a helpdesk, without any qualifications. The downside is you can't fly the 'Bus.

Good luck!

EC DKN

21st Jun 2015, 17:57

Guys be realistic people are paying OAA/FTE + FR= 150000€ or even worst 140000 for working in Volotea (717)! We can do nothing!

You can go modular work you way and soon or later get it! Anyway, that is life!

afusaru

21st Jun 2015, 18:11

Would be nice not to see insults anymore here. If you read the whole topic you only find 'idiot' 'dumb' 'stupid', etc. And you only have assumptions, as they did not releave any financial aspects yet.
This is to individuals to decide if it is a good shot or not based on a informed decision. If one decides to go for it then good luck, it doesn't mean he is an idiot.
I wish I could read here news and information one might need.

sierra_sotiropoulos

21st Jun 2015, 19:22

@Syntax Error

You should check your knowledge before you go accusing other people for mistakes!

1) the SFO's in Wizz have been given a RAISE in the sector pay, so indeed they make more money than just the Base Pay difference of 5.000€.

2) the pay back period for the TR is 3 years, not 15-18 months as you say.

3) taxation in many cases can be 0, especially for the starting FO salary.

4) in most bases you can live with less than 1.000€/month if you don't want a fancy life.

sierra_sotiropoulos

22nd Jun 2015, 00:40

You really are a wise guy Syntax Error :ugh:

To begin with, I am neither "management" nor "CTC" (as you accuse me) and actually I am not trying to defend this programme.
I just like people to be accurate, especially when they try to teach other people lessons with an attitude!
Before beginning my flying career I went to the London School of Economics for my BA and Cranfield University for my MSc, while in between also got an MBA so, trust me, I know how to deal with numbers better than you!

1) You wrote:
First the only difference between FO and SFO is BASE PAY of 5000 Euros, so how come you have calculated 16K extra on the FO and SFO 20K?
This is FIRST ERROR.
This is YOUR first error, as you already admitted in your second post. SFO's have different sector pay.

2) You wrote:
The sector pay has been increased by 30%, a normal sector was 30 Euros, now it's 39 Euros. My mistake, I used 33 Euros instead, which on 30 sectors is 990 Euros, should have been 1170 Euros! Yes those 180 Euros is going to save the day on such a big loan, not!
One more mistake. You compare the SFO's standard sector pay to the FO's medium sector pay.
So the correct calculation is: FO 30x30 = 900 euros SFO 30x39= 1.170 euros
Therefore the difference between the two is 270 euros, not 180!
And, of course, this is really the worst case scenario. The difference gets even bigger in a more realistic sector mix.

3) You wrote:
First if you do TR with Wizz they deduct 1000 Euros a month for 15 - 18 months
You are wrong again. The pay back period is 36 months (so approximatelly 416 euros/month) BUT at the end of the bond period you get half of the money (7.500 euros) back in cash as a bonus. So in reality you have paid 208 euros/month for the TR. So I can't see how it is even worse, as per your claim :confused:

4) You wrote:
At least expect minimum 1000 Euros for rent and food and utilities.
Not really mate. In most bases you can live with well below 1.000 euros/month but it all depends on the lifestyle you want.

5) You wrote:
So if you think you can get 16.000 Euros in Sector pay, of 30 Euros a sector, I can tell you straight away you have no idea. That would equal approx. 44 sectors a month, and the only base where this will happen is Gdansk!
Well, with a realistic sector mix (not always flying standard sectors, but also medium, long and XL) you need only around 36 sectors per month. This could happen in almost any base.

6) You wrote:
Taxes are NOT 0%, I know Greece would like it to be like this, as they borrow money, spend it, and cant pay it back! But that is not how the real world works!
If you want to talk about the Greek economy or you need some private lessons on fiscal policy feel free to PM me since it is not interesting to the rest of the members.
However two quick words about how "the real world works":
A) Learn the difference between Tax and Interest Rate. If Greece would like something, that would be zero Interest Rates on the loans, not zero taxes (which makes no sense!)
B) As a Greek citizen if you work and live abroad you get a 100% tax exemption, provided you are taxed at source.

7) You wrote:
EINSTEINS!
So next time, before trying to teach other people lessons and being disrespectful towards your colleagues, do your homework a bit more thoroughly... Einstein :D

Airbus Airhead

22nd Jun 2015, 12:22

Am I wrong in thinking that they wouldn't deduct money for type rating as we would have paid it ourselves to Ctc? Also wouldn't we receive a 69k bond over 7 years like the easy jet mpl?

ManUtd1999

22nd Jun 2015, 13:11

First if you do TR with Wizz they deduct 1000 Euros a month for 15 - 18 months

I don't know if this will apply with an MPL scheme. The TR is part of the course, so you're not really doing it with Wizzair. Remember guys, the finance for this scheme hasn't been announced as yet. I'm not expecting it to be good, but there's no point arguing over something before the numbers are released!

theiceman747

22nd Jun 2015, 14:52

People still thinking on getting a -150.000€ Loan on this conditions..

Be very careful everyone. Specially with the banks. We are all mature individuals here and yes we all can do maths pretty well (prior to embark on anything) but real life is usually different of what you though initially it would be like. Be very carefull.

I think this scheme could be a good opportunity to someone who can pay it without taking a loan from a bank. But getting in 150.000 debt with anyone it's not a good idea in any case... My opinion.

EC DKN

22nd Jun 2015, 17:28

I need to work 17 hours as a waitress to pay for a PPL lesson! I don't know the life of the others but I want to help as much as I can to self fund my training! Of course parents will help a bit in my modular training but I will try to pay as much as I can!

Why am I saying that? Well my family have their own business and they put a hard work to run it properly! The money of your family is yours and deserves some respect, don't give it to FTE/OAA/CTC!

Go modular, pay half the price (or less) and join Ryanair or whatever!

Regards!

Karol P

25th Jun 2015, 06:47

Relax guys... it isn't obligatory to join. If you want you can try if not keep calm and looking for better deal. We are still waiting for financial details but you know better and argue.

All the best and good luck.:ok:

thoughts

27th Jun 2015, 22:25

I understand the sentiments of people defending this course and highlighting that if you love flying then it's fine to be paid very little.

These are a few points I would like people to consider.

Doing 100 hrs a month routinely waking up at 3am or eventually getting home at 3am after landing at 1am is hard, very hard. This has recently been compounded by the introduction of EASA FTL's that, previously I would only be allowed to do 3 early morning flights in a row, now it's 5. I can also do a SSH on day 5! Fatigue is no joke, it ages you 100 years and is dangerous for flight safety!!

Who would want to work for Wizz on this low salary if given the option between Wizz and an airline with better T's and C's and more pay (assuming same base etc). By accepting to work for such low pay you are allowing Wizz to put airlines with good conditions and pay out of business. This means that in the future you won't be able to work for a good legacy carrier in the dream job that we all aim for.

Wizz have recently reduced their hour requirements from 500 to 300 total. Why is this, struggling to recruit?
Of course everything works by supply and demand. It's up to everyone considering this career to protect your own future now. The Wizz requirement can't get much lower, if they want to expand those planes aren't going to fly themselves (yet)! The only thing they can do then is to poach pilots from other airlines and careers. The only way they can do this is by offering more money. Crew costs can be averaged at around 10% of the airlines total cost. Increase the salaries of pilots and cabin crew by a large percentage of 50% and the total cost to the airline would only be 5%, 50% of 10%. Total 15%. Obviously Wizz don't spend 10% on their crew costs so if it is 5% then a 50% salary increase would only be a total crew cost of 7.5%. They can afford that and obviously it would make a huge difference to anyone trying to service a debt, buy a house, get married, have kids, buy a car, have a holiday etc.

So effectively what i am saying is this.
Planes do not fly themselves, all of you future pilots out there reading this are key. With 110 A321 NEO aircraft potentially on order at Wizz alone they greatly need you. If their needs are so great for pilots they will be recruiting you on to a course like this, paying for your training perhaps even a salary during training. Of course this sounds mental but this was the case around 15 years ago, however if you continue to accept these diabolical terms and conditions and levels of pay then there is no future in this industry.

You are the key!

AJWOOD78

28th Jun 2015, 11:14

Wow, quite a bit of emotion and tension in this forum!
As I understand it, wizz will be looking to recruit people from Eastern Europe.....
Do you know what, I was going to give a reasoned debate on this issue but too many people are quick to draw from the hip and shoot down any scheme that arrives.
No it's not a great financial position to put yourself in, but what real choice to aspiring pilots have these days?

ManUtd1999

28th Jun 2015, 11:54

No it's not a great financial position to put yourself in, but what real choice to aspiring pilots have these days?

I don't want to comment too much on this scheme until all the details are announced, but I disagree that aspiring pilots don't have any other choice. BA run probably the best scheme out their right now, which doesn't require you to gamble houses and work for peanuts. Granted it's hard to get onto, but it's worth a go. Aer Lingus have run good cadet schemes in previous years as well.

If you're unsuccessful with these "golden" opportunities, then the next option shouldn't be running to pay your 100,000 grand IMO. If you've got the cash lying around then fair enough I guess (so much for social mobility....), but how anybody can sensibly decide to re-mortgage/gamble houses etc to join an industry as volatile as aviation is beyond me. Modular training offers opportunities such as West Atlantic's sponsorship or Jet2 Pilot Apprentice, + low-hour jobs in turboprop companies, instructor jobs etc etc. Train whilst you're in work and you will have little or no debt. At that point even if you can't get a job for a while you won't be in too bad a position. Granted it's harder, will take a lot longer and you're unlikely to get straight into the RHS of a shiny jet, but if you want it badly enough.....

dboy

29th Jun 2015, 11:49

Hi Syntax

I have a question for you. Ok,you don't sound too happy with Wizz. But i guess you have already a good amount of hours on the A320. I also guess you have already tried to apply with other companies. What is your experience comcerning that? Is it still very difficult to get something else even when your are rated on the bus??

Tx fot sharing.

FlyingStone

29th Jun 2015, 12:10

Enjoy Easa FtL of 1000 hours with Wizz, their management and planners must have an orgasm with these new rules, do they are able to exploit their crews even more and still not needing to pay them extra!

...

Don't be the idiot who accepts this scheme, let Wizz sweat and try to find PILOTS that will work for them with proper pay!

Actually, the new EASA rules are not just bad - they also put some new limits that weren't in use before, such as planning must be done further ahead, no more scheduled extension at 5 am, ... Although I agree, 1000 hours is too much.

By the way - you worked for Wizz Air before. So if the conditions haven't changed since long time, weren't you one of the idiots who signed the contract as well?

dboy

29th Jun 2015, 16:28

Ok tx. So i understand that hours on the a320 is not saying anything and finding a new better opportunity is also a gamble. I guess that thefe are many a320 skippers outthere to find a job in europe. As i understand you already work somewhere else? Was it difficult to find something else?

LandingConfig

17th Jul 2015, 16:27

The Wizz Integrated ATPL opens on the 20th July 2015. 128,800 EUR is quoted, in the region of £90k.

Integrated ATPL (http://www.ctcaviation.com/courses/ctc-wings-in-partnership-with-wizzair/)

Airbus Airhead

17th Jul 2015, 16:30

It reads to me as though you won't be paid through line training? but I'll be applying! Good luck everyone!

EZY_FR

17th Jul 2015, 16:58

Self-sponsored by the looks of things. Good luck to all those applying!

pug

17th Jul 2015, 17:48

Great way to burn a stinking great hole in your pocket..

hazholmes

21st Jul 2015, 08:12

Training salary paid at begininning of TR and conditional job offer, I dont think its as bad as you make out Syntax.

Sure it's expensive but a normal CTC or OAA grad is going to be in a similar position without the conditional job offer.

EDIT : I see you are an employee Syntax so maybe I'll take your opinion with a little more weight.

EZY_FR

21st Jul 2015, 11:03

A training salary doesn't make up for the fact that you will probably need to pay around 150,000 Euros to get in and that you have a measly starting salary of 20000 euros. The fact that they wouldn't disclose the training salary amount says a lot...I'd avoid it like the plague.

ManUtd1999

21st Jul 2015, 11:32

Sure it's expensive but a normal CTC or OAA grad is going to be in a similar position without the conditional job offer.
I think that's scraping the barrel of potential reasons to apply....

Even if you ignore the "training salary" (which will not be pretty) and assume payment holidays/savings can tide you over, 20000 euro is what you have to live on. Take off at least 12000 for loan repayments, that leaves 660 euro/month + sector pay, before tax. Put into context, you can earn that by working just over half time in any minimum wage job in the UK. Granted cost of living in Eastern Europe will be lower, with sector pay you might even be able to afford to live, but life is still going to be a struggle for years. Then there's all the "what ifs". What if interest rates go up? (they will), what if the salary is cut at some point in the future? (not unheard of in aviation), what if the cost of living increases or your circumstances change? Your salary that is already marginal at best becomes completely unsustainable.

If you have the cash to avoid a loan it might be worth a punt, the salary looks better without having to pay 1000/month for X years. But even then, if you have the money why not go for the EZY MPL or CTC Wings routes...

EZY_FR

21st Jul 2015, 12:07

Spot on ManUtd1999, couldn't agree more. 👍

LandingConfig

21st Jul 2015, 12:44

20,000 EUR is comparable to minimum wage in the UK :yuk:

dannybuckley8

21st Jul 2015, 14:20

Hi All,

I have been researching and reading a lot into the Wizz Air MPL and have also noticed the very obvious loop holes. As someone that wants to get into flying this does seem like a costly and, in some ways, comprehensive way of doing things. I have been trying to understand the term 'Scholarship' used on the CTC website and can't quite get my head around it. Can someone please explain, in a more explanatory, but simplistic way, how this MPL actually works?

Do they help you secure a loan? Do they pay any of the fees back to you/for you? Or is it simply, you pay the fee, are almost guaranteed a job with Wizz Air upon completion, and are then stuck on a crappy wage in order to fund the recently paid loan?

Any explanations would be helpful!

Thank you.

Danny

ManUtd1999

21st Jul 2015, 15:59

Or is it simply, you pay the fee, are almost guaranteed a job with Wizz Air upon completion, and are then stuck on a crappy wage in order to fund the recently paid loan?

As far as I understand it, that's exactly what it's like. Firstly, you or your parents must have a house to secure a loan against, or the cash to pay the installments (total 128,000 euro). You are given a provisional job offer with Wizzair, subject to you passing the training (although there is protection in the event you fail due to lack of aptitude). Salary is 1000/month for the first X months during line training, then 20000/year + sector pay afterwards. The loan repayments are solely your responsibility.

CTC emailed me about the scheme yesterday. The audacity in marketing this as a "fantastic opportunity" is really something.

dannybuckley8

21st Jul 2015, 16:31

ManUtd1999,

Thank you for your informative reply.

I thought this was exactly how it seemed I just didn't want to assume. Your right, the audacity to advertise this as a 'Fantastic Opportunity' is morally wrong. On a positive note it does guarantee a position within the commercial airline, but, as stated previously within this thread, that gives Wizz the ability to control these "successful cadets" as puppets!! It is a shame as this had the potential to make many aspiring pilots extremely happy, but it all comes down to the initial question... How the hell am I going to fund this?!! haha.

Thank you again for your reply.

ManUtd1999

21st Jul 2015, 18:34

Is there any need to be quite so aggressive? The 1000/month was just a guess based on schemes such as BA FPP. I am sure it could indeed be more. Rest assured that I would "do some research about economics" if I was actually thinking of applying.

It is a shame as this had the potential to make many aspiring pilots extremely happy, but it all comes down to the initial question... How the hell am I going to fund this?!! haha.
:ok: Couldn't agree more. Sadly ways into the industry for people without access to large sums of money are few and far between, not helped my schemes such as this one.

dannybuckley8

21st Jul 2015, 20:59

Dont missunderstand what I am asking her as I completely agree with all negative comments around this course. But if it is "Criminal" and a really bad idea, why is CTC shining such glamorous light over the programme and making it out to be a 'Fantastic Opportunity'? And why are so many people still applying for such a financially damaging programme?

BAW1935

22nd Jul 2015, 13:24

I know there's a lot of negativity surrounding this particular scheme, especially concerning the costs and then the salary to follow, but has anyone actually applied for the scheme since it's now open?

schienenschreck

22nd Jul 2015, 16:56

Syntax Error,

I dont understand. You no longer work with Wizz Air. Everything aside why are you on such a vendetta against them? Are you trying to prove a point? It obviously no longer affects you so why all the hate?

I am looking forward to someone who has actually applied and tells us about the finances involved.

pug

22nd Jul 2015, 17:47

Funding appears to be the same as most of the others, through BBVA and secured on a property.

It looks like a lot of money, no mention of pay though except the mention of half pay through line training. I worked out that from a standing start (I.e no prior savings), you'd most likely need to be earning a starting salary of around £40,000 per year to service debts and have a reasonable amount left over for living costs.. Of course everyone is different.

afusaru

23rd Jul 2015, 20:11

when they first announched the lunch of the scheme I was thinking to apply as I have been told that they will act as a guarantor to get the loan and that they will pay you back the loan once starting to fly for them. And I thought that after paying the monthly rate I'd still have in my pocket about 1000E which for my country is not that bad. But now, I have to agree with Syntax Error and the others who, well pointed out that it does not worth it.

The only positive point I see here is that they will offer you that contract beforehand, which for me is important but not enough, I'd better go get an ATPL for 30-40K and hopefully to find a job afterwards

good luck to all those applying anyway.

AirChaser

23rd Jul 2015, 23:24

Can someone post what is the realistic take home pay for a new FO (non type rated) based in Poland? I couldn't find a straight answer on this thread.
Also what's the current upgrade time for a new hire with about 3-3.5k TT and about 2500 hours of jet airline flying.

Thanks.

schienenschreck

24th Jul 2015, 08:31

Syntax Error,

Your last reply conveyed WAY more information than you usual rants. I thank you for it, I think you made your point clear!

I kinda agree with Wizz though. If they can't (or better won't) pay their pilots more, and have bad conditions then pilots will leave. They have to do something to tie them down.

CTC is bloody expensive however. 130K Eur, even if you include Type raiting then a "normal" 0 - ATPL wouldnt cost more than 70K EUR. That is a hefty 50,000 premium. In Hungary at LHNY for example you can do an all inclusive (accomodation etc included) for 65,000 EUR. There is absolutely no reason to fly to NZ or USA to do flight training. + 20K and you have your type rating as well, for 85,000 EUR. Obviously there are other costs involved as the program includes line training as well, but come on, since when are you supposed to PAY for Line training??

All in all I think this might be a good opportunity for those who have the CASH. I have detailed the repayment plans or monthly payments in a previous post, but 500 EUR monthly would only service the interest, and if you want to repay it in a reasonable timeframe then you need to pay at least 1700 EUR a month.

Still, I am looking for anyone who has applied and knows more than what is available on the website.

Good luck!

AirChaser

24th Jul 2015, 14:30

Thanks for your help Syntax Error :D
True, all of this info is available here, but it's scattered all over the place so again, thanks for putting it all together in one post.
I was under impression that the upgrade time was a lot quicker for those with a couple of thousand hours of jet time. I've heard in some cases within 12-24 months. The FO pay is hard to manage to say the least, especially for 5 years. How do you become an SFO, is it based purely on the company seniority?

dirk85

24th Jul 2015, 15:03

You would enter as SFO with your hours, as you need 1500 factorized hours.

For the rating they deduct now 15000 euros over 3 years (415 euros a month).
You get back 7500 euros lump sum after three years, if still in the company, which means that you pay at the end 7500 euros for the rating.

You can expect command with 3500 hours factorized hours, and good sim performances.

AirChaser

24th Jul 2015, 17:15

dirk85,

Your info is much appreciated! Thanks for clarifying on how the TR cost is being deducted.

So captains can expect 4.5 to 5k Euros before all the deductions or is it a net pay?

dirk85

24th Jul 2015, 19:33

After deductions.
The base pay and sector pay increases 5% every 1000 hours.

dirk85

25th Jul 2015, 09:33

I mostly agree with what Syntax say in general, but to be fair, what he says is true only for contractors.
In many bases it is also available a local contract, where sick pay and pension is present, in accordance with local legislation. About 8/9% is deducted from pilots salary for social security.
Crew meal is provided on a day of duty, for what it matters.
Private life is possible if you live somewhere close to a place where Wizz operates.
Of course, it is not a commutable contract, but nobody has ever said otherwise.

If you have a family or cannot move more or less permanently to the base you are assigned I can concur that life could be tough.

If you are single, young and willing to move go for it, in any other case, think long and hard.

pug

25th Jul 2015, 10:10

I appreciate that living costs in the parts of Europe a cadet is likely to be based will be cheap, however on that salary, assuming no help from Wizz and getting the full loan, how would any successful candidate service loan repayments?

dirk85

26th Jul 2015, 11:17

I will totally agree on one point: this scheme is just insane, and I would never suggest it to someone starting from zero. It is just not sustainable financially, nobody is disputing this.

Wizz could barely make sense if you join already as FO or better SFO, without having to finance the all course, and a fast command possibility.
And if you do not have to commute, or at least have an easy one.

In this case, with a net salary between 2000 and 2500, you can have an half decent life in let's say VNO or SOF.

dboy

27th Jul 2015, 15:03

Syntax, next time i would say "no". If they dont like the answer well they have to kick me out. No problems with that.

AirChaser

27th Jul 2015, 18:04

Can you just disregard those harassing calls and messages while on your days off? I would just set my phone to ignore their number.

With regards to crappy pay, I agree, FO pay is a joke, especially combined with this €130000 scheme, but if time to command is not too long for those joining Wizz with some experience, it should be doable.
I'll take 5000 Euros in Eastern Europe doing day trips over 8-9000 in the sand pit, flying 95hrs a month through 15 time zones.

hazholmes

29th Jul 2015, 09:58

So has anybody applied and heard anything back?

flyboy1818

31st Jul 2015, 10:33

Wow this is a crazy scheme and I feel a desperate need to add my two cents!

Some of these MPL schemes with other operators provide a pretty solid salary after training and a good plan as to how you will pay back the loan. This one provides none . If you have to make full repayments whilst working on the low salary that Wizz offer, you will have absolutely no money to live on whatsoever! You will be insolvent for many years to come, even on a good salary it will suck!

YOU WILL BE WASTING THE BEST YEARS OF YOUR LIFE!

Central and Eastern Europe are cheaper to live in than the 'west', however if you come from the 'west' and want to continue with you Western European lifestyle then it will cost you around 2000 euros per month with a car (which you will need to get to the airport for those early starts!). This takes into account a good one bedroom apartment, a small car, regular trips back to the UK, one beach holiday per year and a good social life. This is my experience from previously living in the region (I don't work for Wizz). This would be after loan repayments.

My attention now turns to the price of this course. I want anyone applying to this scheme to have a long think about what they could do with that money! You could easily obtain an fATPL for less than 50,000 euros in Poland with the right planning. You could also go modular in the UK/US for less than 60,000 euros. The UK in particular has some great modular flight schools such as Stapleford which will provide you with world class training. Doing your PPL and hour building in the USA is also great fun, something your be missing out on with this scheme.

At the end (of a modular course) you will still have at least 80,000 euros to play with! You can then go and get an instructors rating, build some experience, gain some contacts and work your way up the ladder (it worked for me). Alternatively you could go and be a Bush Pilot for a few years (also great fun). If your so boring that your dead set on going straight into the airlines then you could purchase a type rating immediately. Even though this is something that I don't recommend, it would still be way cheaper than this scheme! A B737 or an Airbus rating can be purchased for less than 20,000 euros. Another alternative would be to simply wait for a better scheme to open, there's now quite a lot of these schemes around!

The market is gradually improving for Pilots at the moment, if I was to start now I would go modular and keep my debts low. There will be entry level jobs around in two years time for those that have taken the modular route, I'm sure of that.

If your considering this scheme and need any advice from a current Professional Pilot about how to become a Pilot without becoming a slave, then please feel free to send me a private message. I would not wish this scheme on anyone! :ok:

yannisfr

1st Aug 2015, 17:08

Banks, schools & the training scam « CockpitSeeker (http://www.cockpitseeker.com/2015/banks-not-buying-it/)

flyboy1818

10th Aug 2015, 18:19

Go ahead and become a Pilot then, just don't do it via this scheme! Theres better ways to get there and do you really want your parents to remortgage? That's placing a huge strain on them.

skyship007

11th Aug 2015, 19:28

How much can you get for selling your body (parts)? | Money | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/jan/31/flu-government-sell-egg-sperm-body)

OR, wait for things to improve!

As for Cheddar Cheese, this part is a real killer:
I am 18, just finished my first year of engineering at Warwick. I know it's sensible to finish my degree first, but the appeal of flying makes me reckless. I like the idea of a few years struggle to pursue my dream, and the adventure of it all also appeals.

If you know it's sensible, finish the degree as it will not look cool if you don't.
Button pushing, going bust and paperwork is not a dream, it's a reality for many newbies. The last thing any airline wants is an adventurous pilot. Try waterbombers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYHvfYGF_7Y

hazholmes

17th Aug 2015, 13:00

Rejection for me. Some of you will think I'm crazy, but there you go.

Anybody been successful care to share their background a bit. Thought I was suitably 'qualified' but obviously not.

Good luck.

Romeo.Bravo

18th Aug 2015, 13:27

Did they tell you why? At least...
Sorry for you.

thoughts

21st Aug 2015, 11:04

ChaddersCheese, if your cv arrived on my desk with this scheme listed it would go straight in the bin!

It's an appalling scheme, it undermines the pilot profession as an actual career and the poor terms and conditions are a direct threat to flight safety because when money is that tight calling in sick is not an option.

It's a hard job both physically and mentally at the best of times and fatigue is no joke. Combine with this financial stress and you could start to compromise your own personal health. Nothing is worth compromising your own health for.

I'm out!

NZFalcon

21st Aug 2015, 20:18

ChaddersCheese

Do your parents know about your designs on their mortgage?! In my case, the conversation was a little more complicated than "Can I borrow £xx,xxx?"

So you like Poland? Have you lived there? Are you certain you'll end up based there? How do you feel about living in Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Latvia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Lithuania..?

I appreciate the romantic view you have of 'the big struggle' to get into the airlines, but there are other tried and tested ways of struggling to find your way in. And they don't saddle you with such an obligation to a life in an unfamiliar country.

This for a start, when it reopens. (http://www.westair.se/Recruitment/Cadet-Scheme/United-Kingdom)

Besides anything else, you've got the best part of 50 years' working ahead of you so what's the hurry to get in a jet?!

Imagine finding yourself stranded in Eastern Europe, unhappy in your job, earning little more than you would be stacking shelves at home, but unable even to quit and return to the UK lest your parents lose their home.

My advice, for what it's worth - if you're that determined to get yourself into a jet at the earliest opportunity - finish your degree, get a normal job and save, save, save. Do your PPL on the side. Apply for the BA FPP, easyJet MPL, Virgin MPL etc. at every opportunity! That way, when you get in, you'll not only have a bit of money to temper the huge debt you're about to take on, but when you find your way into a jet it'll be that much sweeter. Crucially, you won't have sold yourself any shorter than the rest of us who have joined the industry in the past x years.

nick14

23rd Aug 2015, 10:48

While I do not condone questionable employment practices, the MPL scheme is, and has been demonstrated to be a more effective course at preparing students for a specific role. All these early posts about flying around in a single/multi piston aircraft are rubbish.

The facts are that the MPL course is no shorter, and is in fact more expensive for both the student and the operator. The main benefit is that students arrive to the airline with a higher skillset that a traditional ATPL student as they have had so much more exposure to multipilot operations.

No point training a race drive in a Ford Fiesta, then give them the minimu possible training in the F1 car before throwing them on the race track.

papazulu

23rd Aug 2015, 14:28

No point training a race drive in a Ford Fiesta, then give them the minimu possible training in the F1 car before throwing them on the race track

...which is exactly the opposite of what happens in modern F1 races. Coincidentally all F1 world champions of the last decade started karting, the formula Ford or equivalent etc etc.

How do they manage in the US without that fabulous MPL concept?

PZ :rolleyes:

wonder88

23rd Aug 2015, 18:27

You tell me PZ they have plenty of good flight schools but restrictive entry criteria which is now strangling their regional airlines. Few Americans see the point in 4 years of college $40000+ costs then add on the cost of getting your licences and building your hours $150000 roughly just to start at $24000 a year!!!!!! Ha I know what I would prefer. I'm sick of the narrow minded people on here:ugh: if you don't like the MPL fine but don't criticise it out right, it has its positives and its negatives put your arguments across and let people make up their own mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ia5jf7IrY

Airbus Airhead

24th Aug 2015, 07:10

The wizz air program is an integrated atpl, not an mpl

papazulu

24th Aug 2015, 20:23

plenty of good flight schools but restrictive entry criteria which is now strangling their regional airlines.

Criteria are there for a reason and to be honest it would be great to have the 1500TT in EASA-land too, that would kill the P2F on the spot.

Few Americans see the point in 4 years of college $40000+ costs then add on the cost of getting your licences and building your hours $150000 roughly just to start at $24000 a year!!!!!!

40K would barely pay 2 years at a decent uni, I think. However u can do it in small steps and still reach the top. Just get going early, even the regional goes up 10K after year 1 and some places upgrade into LHS just under 3 years at the moment (from the horse's mouth, not me guessing.

I'm sick of the narrow minded people on here if you don't like the MPL fine but don't criticise it out right, it has its positives and its negatives put your arguments across and let people make up their own mind.

It's flawed concept, if something goes wrong u are stuffed. It's just another way for the airlines to drive T&Cs down. These are my arguments, BTW. Not gospel...

PZ:cool:

nick14

25th Aug 2015, 06:45

Papa Zulu,

Where is the flaw? The MPL scheme actually trains pilots to a higher skillset and to deal with the unforeseen as well as the expected. They spend more time (pretty much double) on the specific type, dealing with more failures and difficult scenarios than the ATPL route ever does.

Show me how time flying around in an SEP with no problems is better than many hours, on type, dealing with carefully constructed exercises designed to train to competency.

I'm sorry but anybody that slates MPL has no idea about it.

It's more expensive because base training is 12 landings. Lead in time is so much longer and it requires continuous monitoring by the company.

covec

26th Aug 2015, 01:48

Nick..re MPL..Balls Old Chap!

I assume that the 14 refers to your age...or hours...

SEP time at the very least focuses the mind on the fact that 1 donkey means any engine probs needs to be addressed in short order only after selecting a suitable landing area..the aviate navigate communicate and decision making workload is high particularly when you are responsible for teaching PFLs and thus preparing SEP pilots for such an event.

Of course, so is flying a single pilot NDB based SID on a piston twin with a failing or simulated failing engine in a good old UK winter low...

nick14

27th Aug 2015, 07:04

Wrong on all accounts.

I do not work for CTC, I am a 737 TRI and SEP CRI with a reasonable amount of hours. I have spent the last few years researching training techniques and different courses to see where the future lies.

I am tired of arguing on this forum about the pros and cons of the MPL scheme but rest assured in the fact that at least their training techniques will be used in the future.

covec

27th Aug 2015, 23:10

Nick14

So how are self-sponsored people to access the MPL?

A well known UK airline informed me today that they will not allow self-sponsored candidates access the MPL course: you must be sponsored.

In the end THAT is my moan: exclusivity. It appears that both ways work (worked).

It is an issue that I am going to take up with my MP & MEP IF it is true that self-sponsoring is being prevented.

nick14

28th Aug 2015, 03:44

One of the biggest requirements of the MPL scheme is that the student is carefully assessed and selected and is training towards a specific type and to company SOPs. A self sponsored MPL would not work well as it is difficult to train a student for a generic type, ATPL would be far better in that case.Plus the cost would be greater So it wouldn't make sense.

Don't get me wrong, MPL was never designed to be the replacement for the ATPL route as it doesn't cater for other disciplines like the single pilot world. It was purely designed to provide job specific training to airline pilots.

nick14

29th Aug 2015, 10:25

No I am not.

I am merely stating that an individual cannot go to an ATO and buy an MPL, but they can a CPL.

I am very well aware of the qualifications that you get following CPL/IR or as it is stated in regulation ATPL integrated course.

You are also wrong in relation to jobs. You can get a job straight out of school with a CPL as many people do.

byrondaf

30th Aug 2015, 21:51

Syntax Error, a polite message for you. Whilst you have contributed significantly to this thread with much useful information, possibly consider only making positive contributions about this course from now on. Yes it may not be right for you, but that doesn't stop it being the right thing for absolutely everyone. Im sure it's rather tedious for others having to sift through your anti-Wizz MPL rhetoric, when perhaps candidates are reading this thread for useful information so they can make an informed choice.

Maybe the old phrase, "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all," will come in handy...

planedrive

31st Aug 2015, 10:03

Pretty hard to make positive contributions to a thread about a course like the wizzair MPL when you see all the in's and out's, and know people who work for them.

Syntax Error obviously has a lot of knowledge and experience with wizzair and I am much more interested in reading his posts than any others.

ManUtd1999

31st Aug 2015, 14:38

Just to avoid confusion, the CTC programme with Wizzair is an integrated ATPL course, not MPL! Maybe the mods could get the thread title changed if such wizardry is possible? Other than that, I concur with the majority of posts above, IMO anyone applying needs their head examining....

Narrow Runway

15th Sep 2015, 09:21

Syntax,

You've got some valid points, but once you start dragging desperate refugees and whole swathes of continents into it, you've lost the argument.

In my view, you end up looking small minded, xenophobic and racist.

You end up sounding far worse than the supposed "narrow minded" countries that you describe as being full of "bigots".

Whatever bug is up your ar5e, I'd suggest you remove ASAP. You're sounding deranged.

afusaru

15th Sep 2015, 15:03

you crossed the line, off topic...I'd take that back if i were you

FlyingStone

16th Sep 2015, 00:27

Dude, get a life.

They are not even able to keep their own young people staying in their countries, because it's pretty depressing place to be for to long time, much due to their heritage of the old Soviet!

Where 5million Brits live abroad revealed | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690347/Revealed-Where-5million-Brits-live-abroad-1-3million-Australia-four-emigrated-San-Marino.html)

The biggest increases in emigration from the UK were mostly to eastern Europe, including countries which have since joined the European Union.

Eastern Europe is not for everybody, the same as you have people, who don't want to live in Africa, people who don't want to live in Middle East, people who don't want to live in - believe it or not - UK, people who don't want to live in the USA, ... Just go where you want to go and leave people who think otherwise live their own lifes.

One final question to finish this debate, since it's obviously pretty pointless to continue - and since positive advertisement is often much better than the negative: who is your current employer, what are the requirements, conditions and where/how can we apply?

Rupert369

16th Sep 2015, 21:38

Changing subject a little (although I must just add to the debate above that as a teenager I toured Eastern Europe with a black friend of mine and the racism he encountered in many places was absolutely and unbelievably appalling) I received an interesting email from CTC / Wizzair a few days ago.

It was sent to people who'd showed interest in the cadet scheme, which I had. Ultimately I decided not to apply as - much as becoming a pilot is an ambition so burning that I can't really put it in words - I regard taking a £110,000 loan in exchange for a maximum FO salary of 25,000 euros as nothing short of selling myself into slavery. Oh and don't forget the best part of two years studying without a salary thrown in for good measure.

Anyway, this email offered the first 50 responders to a short survey a Wizz branded 'aspiring aviators' pack. So I answered the survey - which was three questions, essentially asking your contact details and number of hours, and that was it.

Is this a sign that they didn't find enough people for the places on offer? Mathmatically, I simply can't fathom how anyone who didn't have £100,000 lying around could ever afford to undertake the scheme - and people with money lying around tend to be very careful with it...

wonder88

16th Sep 2015, 22:24

I also received that email and wondered the same thing. I have been cautious so far and not replied to it in case they actually try contacting me. := Does anyone have an insight about the initial course? They could just be looking for more bodies to subsidise for growth and pilots heading for the exit door.:suspect:

EZY_FR

17th Sep 2015, 18:14

I think most of us get the point that this is not a great scheme, but does this discussion have to keep dragging on?

flyboy1818

25th Sep 2015, 10:26

What makes me laugh is that John Smith thinks that he's the only person in this whole world that has a choice! A lot of us Pilots are very intelligent people with degrees and previous careers to fall back on. If the terms and conditions are not suitable in the future then we will simply do something else for a living and fly for fun on the weekends!

Anyone who is considering this scheme needs to visit a therapist. The terms and conditions on offer are insane at best.

yannisfr

28th Sep 2015, 17:46

Guys, that would be interesting to know how went the selections, i am curious to hear more from the Wizz wannabes... Txs!

flyboy1818

30th Sep 2015, 20:07

1) Why should Wizz (or any airline) not exploit a workforce that shows no interest in fighting back?

Thats a rational statement. All Wizz air bases are in former Soviet Union countries and their associated satellite countries. The employee - employer relationship is very different in these countries to Western Europe. As mentioned in a previous post an attempt was made to start a union in Budapest and all involved were dismissed. The rights that employees have to be represented and form a union falls far short of western standards in most of cases. Dismissing an employee is also far easier and in many cases you won't have a leg to stand on in this part of the world.

The reason that Wizz Air should treat the workforce well is because this is how you expand a business. If you treat the employees well, they will treat the customers well and keep them coming back. They will keep the AOG time low and save fuel etc. In the end having employees which care and respect a company saves far more money than having a bunch of angry, annoyed and overworked individuals who will increase your costs in all sorts of hidden ways. That extra 5 minutes on the APU, that extra bit of breaking action and those fake sickies that people throw all add up!

2) Why should Wizz (or any airline) not offer exploitative terms and conditions to new joiners when there is a never ending queue of people willing to join them?

Because the better terms and conditions generally attract the better people with more experience who are cheaper to train and generally stay longer. This is a far better business principle than constantly having to recruit and train new employees. This also allows for you to develop excellence within your organisation. If people are retained for many years they can often go on to do great things for a company. Just take a look at BA, many former Cadet entry pilots are now TRE/TRI's within the company. I doubt that any wizz cadets will be sticking around for long enough for this to happen as the terms offered are so poor that they will jump at the first opportunity.

I've had a number of employers in my lifetime and I've come to realise that bad employers will always be bad and good ones will always be good! My advice is stick to the good ones for as long as you can and avoid working for bad companies such as Wizz.

John Smith, good luck with the career change, now please get off this forum and leave it to rest of us to dish out the advice! We are only trying to help guide people in the right direction in the end!

JumboJet1999

1st Oct 2015, 09:03

To answer my question, do you think NO job is better than a job at Wizz Air?

But at least you don't have to pay £100k+ for no job?

Gazz88

1st Oct 2015, 21:46

Once again most people who are looking down on this scheme are people who have employment as a commercial airline pilot.

I for one would not go anywhere near this scheme and I'm only a lowly wannabe like yourself.

I have to say that I agree with Syntax, if you've got the ridiculous sum of money they insist on charging down the back of your sofa and you won't miss it then go for it. It could actually be a good opportunity to use them to get on to the ladder and move on as you say (if you're lucky!) and if you can't you have only lost pocket change.

If however, you would have to take out an enormous loan or remortgage your folks home then you really need a mental health check up! Bearing in mind your wages would only just cover the loan repayments how do you expect to have any sort of life?

You say you could move on after 3 years...what if you can't for whatever reason? You don't make the cut for other airlines or there is another recession for example? Maybe you consider these things unlikely but you can never truly know for sure. You would be stuck at Wizz, possibly living in the arse end of nowhere, no life, a mortgage sized loan, no money for yourself and possibly the threat of losing your parents home as you can't keep up with the repayments. And don't forget you need to add the training time on to the top of that 3 years so could be at least 5 years of that sh*t!

Don't get me wrong, I want to be a pilot as much as anyone on here but this scheme just isn't a viable option. To answer your question I would actually rather be looking for a job for 3 years than to even consider this scheme. At least you could have some form of a life working another job while you job hunt.

Just take the advice you've been given from the guys that are flying as they are in a much better position to give advice and you really should use this to your advantage. After all there hasn't been one Wizz pilot on here defending the company and offering counter arguments to all the negatives that have been posted about it.

Gazz88

2nd Oct 2015, 21:59

747pro

You are indeed in a very lucky position then! I guess you will be applying for the EZY MPL as well? Perhaps the Wizz MPL could work out for you as an alternative, however it still doesn't take away from the fact that the more people that accept these lousy T&Cs the more it will spread throughout the industry. That being said, I'm sure there will be an influx of people that apply to this scheme and nothing will change that so why shouldn't you use it to your advantage? Just don't complain on here in 3 years time how bad it is :}

Couldn't agree with you more regarding the modular route...hence that's the reason why I'm doing it that way :ok:

wonder88

8th Oct 2015, 19:24

It looks like Wizz Air are at it again they have just opened up two new training programmes with CTC as I suspected a few weeks ago this time they're aimed at PPL holders for more details see the CTC website. The really strange thing is during a Facebook Q&A it was revealed that they haven't even chosen candidates for their original integrated ATPL scheme which should have been done in September. CTC claimed they were waiting to hear back from Wizz Air but felt happy to go ahead with these new programmes $$$$$$$ :ugh:

yannisfr

9th Oct 2015, 14:17

The programmes seems to be a disaster, a lot a turning now into modular training and applying later on. Even the EZY MPL has some issues to get people onboard.... Training schools are fighting to get people in, events, roadshows, .... and wiz for sure is the last chosen programme

NclsA

9th Oct 2015, 14:52

Hi,

Wizz air gonna recruit ! I read it on article.

I'm looking 4 a TRA320-does anyone know an ATO ? I've seen one new not far from me in AIx en Provence de vinci aero (A320 type rating VINCI Aero (http://www.vinci.aero)). Can you advise me ?

Thnks

papazulu

15th Oct 2015, 14:45

Wizz will be forever need to be recruiting, as that's how they have structured their company, Wizz is a training company, unless you are a local from one of the countries Wizz are based in.

While I cannot verify nor dismiss you comments, if you are right then that happens just in the cadet camp, me thinks.

Has anyone applied as NTR-experienced with this lot? Not really after opinions on T&Cs but rather trying to understand how their recruitment ticks...

PZ :confused:

dirk85

15th Oct 2015, 15:56

I know many people that got in the last six months, all of them with experience but not typed.
From the business jet guy with 1000 or 2000 hours total to the guy with 4000 hours instruction/aerial work but no turboprop or jet time.

They are running recruitment on a weekly basis in Budapest, from what I understand.

papazulu

15th Oct 2015, 16:37

From the business jet guy with 1000 or 2000 hours total to the guy with 4000 hours instruction/aerial work but no turboprop or jet time.

There must be something horribly wrong with my CV then, I cannot get a beep! :E

What happened to the open-days? Haven't seen a venue advertised for ages...

PZ :cool:

dirk85

15th Oct 2015, 19:48

Open days would certainly help to get an assessment, but the last one was held in february I believe.

Apparently it doesn't hurt to have someone inside the company vouching for you, from what I have been told.

wonder88

15th Oct 2015, 20:17

Wizz now have 3!!!! programmes open with CTC what the hell is going on??? Anyone with any kind of insight please let us know because if they haven't even picked cadet for the first programme why open it up again?:confused: BTW its an integrated ATPL!!!

AA757

15th Oct 2015, 23:05

In order to spend 128K euros to work for WA you have to be mentally ill and you don't want to fly airplanes when you're mentally ill.

Turbavykas

15th Nov 2015, 12:16

Is Wizz Air still hiring regular way? Applied to NTR position even with recommendation quite long ago but no any answer yet. What to do?

ManUtd1999

15th Nov 2015, 12:32

Whilst in Budapest I spoke to a First Officer at Wizz who was from the UK... He is VERY happy with his lifestyle and everything he told me goes against all of the negativity that is posted all over this thread.. He was on a 6/1/6/7 roster and he advised me that he normally only flies 4-5 days of the 6 on's... The overall atmosphere I experienced was very positive with a great vibe around the place..

There's probably some truth in that, day-to-day life at Wizz might well be better than is protrayed on here. The finance is in black+white though. Paying 128,000 euro with zero support from Wizz and a starting salary of 20,000 euro + sector pay. People can do their own calculations but loan repayments will be >1500 euro/month even assuming low interest rates. Good luck "living" on just your sector pay.....

ManUtd1999

15th Nov 2015, 15:51

live on the salary with no loan required..

In which case the scheme is probably quite a good opportunity, I agree. These things are always going to vary hugely depending on personal circumstances.

Stratopause

18th Nov 2015, 15:33

There's an easy way to settle this. Syntax Error you should give 747Pro a glowing reference and recommendation to Wizz so he can find out for himself. Then see how it goes.

A320baby

20th Nov 2015, 08:36

Well Wizz give the opportunity for middle aged cadets to gain a first aviation position, then give them enough hours so they then can bugger off to the likes of EZY and BA... Just saying :}

spiitfire

3rd Dec 2015, 20:14

Actually I am a Hungarian, who made it to the cadet program. And I think it's a great opportunity for us despite it's costs. Yes, it's a lot of money, especially here in Eastern Europe, where an ordinary people earns this amount in 30 years. It's quite different than life in the UK or anywhere in Western Europe. If you have a really great position, you can earn 700-900€ a month, not more.
For us that 1600+900€ a month is more than a lot, and you can't reach that salary only if you are a CEO of a huge company, politician, sportsman, etc.
Us, in our twenties have nothing. We live well, in great conditions, just as you, but we don't own our apartments, can't save adequate amount, can't afford a car, can't afford holidays, and it doesn't give us real safety.
But our parents have it. If they studied something useful in the communist era, now they have a safe job, a better salary, properties and safety. They are not rich, but they live a normal life without distress. So they can't afford a normal pilot training, but they can help with some money and a mortgage to their house, to make our future brighter and make our dreams come true.
Because if we pay back the 1600€ salary per month, we can live in the 900-1000€ sector pay very well in Eastern Europe. And remember, this is our home. It's not as bad as you imagine at all, it's not the third world, just some countries which had a serious communist mark, which didn't make a good history. I lived in Spain for 7 years and it's not worse, it's different. Okay, there are better and less good places. But Budapest, or Gdansk are beautiful base cities.
We can go to a normal flight school where we pay 50.000€ for the ATPL, then another 16.000 for your hours to complete 300, and then another 20.000€ for the type rating (+accommodation and stuff). It's cheaper, but almost the same, and there's no job guarantee. And you have to pay it also from a loan, because ordinary people don't have that money on their bank account. And if you don't get a pilot job as soon as possible, you can't do anything else because you have won't be able to pay back your loans. You can't go for a different job until you get a pilot position because at that time the bank takes your house.
This is why this option, despite it's higher cost, it's a better opportunity for us. Maybe not for you, but maybe this wasn't announced for people from Western Europe.
And yes, it will be hard to find the money in one month, it's a huge amount, but in 7 years I will be able to earn six times the average Hungarian salary. And I will do what I love, in an absolutely not bad roster. So it's sounds like a dream for me, sorry.

spiitfire

3rd Dec 2015, 20:20

BTW I'm at CEFA and not CTC, but conditions are almost the same.

spiitfire

4th Dec 2015, 09:27

No, sorry, I'm not Wizz employee. But sure, I can't prove it to you, so believe whatever you want. But you might be of Ryanair and you might be here for demoralize future Wizz pilots. :D No, sorry bad joke.
I'm not saying that this is the best deal in the aviation world, but for some of us it's a great opportunity.
Please Syntax Error let me know better how life is in Easter Europe since I was living, working here for decades right now. Renting or buying a place is much more cheap, food is a lot cheaper, going out is very much cheaper. But as you said, and you're right in that, that some costs (cars, television, etc) are the same and it's easier to work for it in the west. And also if you want to go to a holiday to the west, it's very expansive for us. In this point you are absolutely right. But I for example don't want to leave my country, my family if it's possible. I know that in aviation world that's a silly thing, but with Wizz it's possible to work at your home base (not at the start, a bit later).
And of course you are not forced to stay forever with Wizz. For me the best future dream is to get a position as a captain in one of the home bases in Hungary, than work here until I can. But others can go. Fresh pilots usually go to China, Indonesia, etc to get their hours and then apply for a big airliner in Europe. Why is Wizz Air so bad then? You work there for some years and then go back to the UK and became a captain at British Airways. Or the same for an Easter European. With 5-6-7000 hours of flight he can go wherever he wants. And in that time he will be at his home, or in your case just for 3 hours of your home.
But I still don't want to leave. I want to get back to my city which has a base, in 6-7-8 years I pay back my debts, I will build a house, raise kids, and have a happy life with a dream job. Sorry I know that this bothers you because you are in a very different opinion, but this is how I see my future. I can do this with Wizz, and maybe I can't do it without.

JQKA

5th Dec 2015, 23:38

Syntax Error:ok:

Every one , like you said in the previous post, if I remember well, with little bit of aviation knowledge will find out soon or later what is Wizzair aqnd not only.

But let me point you some of the main reason and this is the common reason why these Companies are Fake: Culture+Management+Staff+Communism= Crap Airline Company !!

I don't want to open a east-West debate, but the reality is that most of these guys/girls need to know what is discipline, Humilty, Politness and many other nice things, to deal better with people and collegues.

Every place where East people took part , felt down!

example

Primera Air> now almost 50% or more, are Latvians and what is a Result= Holy :mad:

Small Planet> another Hole in the Aviation

and so on.

What you said in the other thread about the Senior reporting you, bring me back in another similar situation, , we were heading towards SSH, charter flight, no cathering at all for a problem in their home base:confused:
When I went out from the cockpit I saw one of the cabin crew (East Europe) drinking from the bottle of water in front of the passengers in the fwd galley and when a father with little girl asked for a glass of water she said to him " we don't have water for you sorry, this water is for crew"....immagine how I felt:uhoh:....i asked the Sir to wait for me, went to the cockpit took a glass of water from my bottle , close the curtains and gave to the little girl.
After that the CC told me that I shouldn't do that and I replied to her in a very strict way. After that I get a call to explain!!!

These people are so arrogant and they can't work with other people, they can't give a good customer care and they never have to deal face to face with customers.

JQKA

6th Dec 2015, 13:59

Someone who's asking about any Internal Referral to expedite the process to be called in Wizzair...:O:O

Here the news for anyone thinking about that:

1-As Internal Referral you need to have 1 year experience after Line check in Wizz

2-if the sponsorized person fail the selection, the internal referral can't sponsorise anyone else until 1 more year has been passed.:confused:

3-if the sponsored person pass the assessment and entering with Bond and broke the last before the 3 years, the internal referral if a FO, will see the Command upgrade denied forever.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

4- that is my GUESS, so if the Internal referral is a CPt, it will be downgraded to FO??? LOL

What kind of rules are these??:\

Dear Wizz we are in the 21 century and in a civilized and democratic EU.:mad:East!

spiitfire

6th Dec 2015, 14:08

Well, since you didn't see my contract, you probably don't know if that payment sceme you wrote is real or not. I didn't see it yet neither, I'm waiting for it now and of course then if I don't like it, I can decide not to sign it. But at the time I still say it's a great opportunity.
And just to reflect on your argument about the holiday ticket problem: did you hear about a tiny little transport vehicle called car? :) You can use that too. Of course it's not convenient if you live in Skopje and your base is Riga, but there are many bases at 250 kilometers from each other.
But of course, I don't want to convince you about anything. I'm not an idiot, I will read my contract and if I see that it's positive, I will sign it. If it's not, I will say sorry and walk away to find another way. That's it.