Improve the phraseology

[BiOS]

Hi guys,
I'm Michael, a 17 years old student pilot. I've recently subscribed and I find this environment much professional and adequate. I fly within a D classified airspace (LIPO - Brescia Montichiari, Italy) and I'd really like to make my communications and phraseology as smooth, clean and understandable as possible. I'm not the kind of person who likes to improvise everything, that's why I wrote down my phraseology on a sheet. The problem is that I don't really think my phraseology is correct or smooth enough, there might be things that should be removed or added and some correct, even re-ordered, to make it the cleanest possible.

That's why I'd like to ask to you, instructors, if you could possibly review and correct the following sheet containing all the communications. I'm supposing to depart from LIPO and flying above lake garda (LIMM FIR) for about 40 minutes and then heading back to LIPO.

Here's the file link for proper formatting:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzDIw7rMxPRnaFRiaGp0b1RBTGM/view

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

P.S. Whenever you'd be unable to download, here you are:


LIPO ATZ
→ 119 decimal 400


PARKED
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS FOR TIME AND RADIO CHECK

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS REQUEST LAST METEOROLOGICAL CONDITION

QNH XXXX, RUNWAY XX I-CRRS


PARKED AND STARTED
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS AT THE AEROCLUB PARKING, GOOD MORNING

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS REQUEST FILE ABBREVVIATED FLIGHT PLAN

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS IS A P-9-2-J-S, TWO PEOPLE ON BOARD, ENDURANCE THREE HOURS, FROM LIPO TO LIPO VIA LAKE GARDA, FLIGHT TIME 40 MINUTES, EXIT ON LONATO 1500ft. REQUEST TAXI INFORMATION

SQUAWKING XXXX, QNH XXXX, RUNWAY XX, WILL TAXI TO HOLDING POINT XX XX VIA F-E-A, I-CRRS


HOLDING POINT
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS AT HOLDING POINT XX YY, READY FOR DEPARTURE

RUNWAY XX, CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF I-CRRS


FREQUENCY CHANGE
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS CURRENTLY ON LONATO 1500ft REQUEST FREQUENCY CHANGE

WILL MAKE CONTACT WITH MILANO INFORMATION ON 124 DECIMAL 925 I-CRRS



LIMM / LIPP
→ 124 decimal 925


FIRST CONTACT

MILANO INFORMATION I-CRRS, GOOD MORNING

MILANO INFORMATION I-CRRS IS A P-9-2-J-S, CURRENTLY ON LONATO 1500ft WITH AN ABBREVIATED FLIGHT PLAN: TWO PEOPLE ON BOARD, ENDURANCE THREE HOURS, FROM LIPO TO LIPO VIA LAKE GARDA, BETWEEN SALÒ AND BARDOLINO, ALTITUDES BETWEEN 2000ft and 4000ft, FLIGHT TIME 40 MINUTES WILL REPORT LEAVING THE LAKE

SQUAWKING XXXX, QNH XXXX, WILL REPORT LEAVING THE LAKE I-CRRS


LEAVING THE LAKE

MILANO INFORMATION I-CRRS, CURRENTLY AT 2000ft, LEAVING THE LAKE, WILL REPORT ON LONATO 1500ft

MILANO INFORMATION I-CRRS, CURRENTLY ON LONATO 1500ft, REQUEST FREQUENCY CHANGE WITH MONTI TOWER

WILL MAKE CONTACT WITH MONTI TOWER ON 119 DECIMAL 40 I-CRRS, HAVE A GOOD DAY










LIPO ATZ
→ 119 decimal 400


COMING BACK
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS COMING BACK

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS, CURRENTLY ON LONATO 1500ft, REQUEST LANDING INFORMATION

QNH XXXX, RUNWAY XX, WILL REPORT JOINING RIGHT-HAND DOWNWIND 32 FOR TOUCH AND GO, I-CRRS


JOINED THE PATTERN
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS ON RIGHT-HAND DOWNWIND 32 FOR TOUCH AND GO

WILL REPORT ON FINAL 32 I-CRRS

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS ON FINAL 32 FOR TOUCH AND GO

RUNWAY XX, CLEARED FOR LANDING I-CRRS


ON THE GROUND
WILL VACATE ON LEFT, AB, A E, FOLLOW ME ON E, I-CRRS


FOLLOW ME INSIGHT
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS WE HAVE THE FOLLOW ME INSIGHT


PARKED
MONTI TOWER I-CRRS AT THE AEROCLUB PARKING CLOSING ABBREVIATED FLIGHT PLAN, THANKS AND HAVE A GOOD DAY

[Whopity]

Lots of unnecessary stuff in there. Much more value if you read the book (http://www.aeroclubvercelli.it/download/Manual%20of%20RT%20DOC%209432%20-%204%20ed.%202007.pdf) and amend it yourself

[Dash8driver1312]

It is useful to know that a runway is cleared for landing when I read back "cleared TO land"

[BiOS]

All right! I'll download the documentation you kindly linked and read it carefully. After that I'll apply every correction I'll need. Thank you so much for that! Do you agree with me posting the amended phraseology to check the quality of my correction? Thank you very much for your help!!!

It is useful to know that a runway is cleared for landing when I read back "cleared TO land"

I'll replace "cleared for landing" with "cleared to land". Thank you very much!

[Whopity]

MONTI TOWER I-CRRS ON FINAL 32 FOR TOUCH AND GO

RUNWAY XX, CLEARED FOR LANDING I-CRRS
A landing involves a full stop; a touch and go does not!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Bios

IMO Europeans, especially the Brits place an outsized importance on saying exactly the right thing on the radio...except nobody can agree on what is exactly right, which leads to long pointless and extremely arguments.

I subscribe to the UK flying magaizine "Pilot". It has a section where recent accidents are reported. I don't ever recall any accident where somebody crashed because they said "final" instead of "finals", but it seems every month somebody manages to bust the nose wheel off on a "landing" attempt :rolleyes:

These kinds of accidents represent a profound failure to be able to demonstrate fundamental flying skills. :ugh:. Mastering those skills should always take precedence over sweating the perfect RT.

So if you are a student pilot don't drop the airplane to fly the mike. If you can't remember the exact right thing to say you can't go very wrong by following the 4 W's in plane english

Who: you are calling
Who: you are
Where: you are
What: you want, or what you are going to do.

[M-ONGO]

These kinds of accidents represent a profound failure to be able to demonstrate fundamental flying skills. :ugh:. Mastering those skills should always take precedence over sweating the perfect RT.


I completely agree.

On saying that, the amount of professional pilots I hear saying "cleared to land 29" or the like is annoying. The only person that should be saying 'cleared' with respect to an aircraft in flight is an ATCO.

Far better to use our colonial friends expressions IMHO, such as "I've got the field in my shield and I'm coming on in good buddy" ;)

[ShotOne]

The exact wording does sometimes make a difference, and that's not just a Brit being anal. Had the F/O of the KLM 747 which crashed in Tenerife transmitted "cleared for take off" rather than "we are at take off" it might just have broken the fatal error chain and hundreds wouldn't have died a fiery death.

Full credit to Michael for working on it. If you aspire to an airline career it will help; most insist SOP calls are delivered as written, i.e. If the call is "flaps in" don't call "flaps UP"

[Big Pistons Forever]

Full credit to Michael for working on it. If you aspire to an airline career it will help; most insist SOP calls are delivered as written, i.e. If the call is "flaps in" don't call "flaps UP"

BIOS is a student pilot. If an instructor is making a big deal about the likes of "flaps up" vs "flaps in" , then that instructor is IMO doing the student a significant dis service, especially if they are pre solo as there more important things he/she should be worried about, which is pretty much everything to do with how to fly an airplane

My experience teaching PPL's is that most people are a bit intimidated by talking on the radio. Instructors getting anal about saying exactly the right thing, particularly early in the training makes this worse.

The reason you use the radio is to convey important information. Getting the message across in an understandable way is the most important thing about using the radio.

However like everything else in aviation you should strive to improve your knowledge and skills including how you use the radio. Practice makes you better so don't sweat it if the calls are not perfect in the early going just look for an improving trend and learn from your mistakes.

[ShotOne]

Michael hasn't complained that anyone's making a big deal about this. But from a new aspiring pilot and non native English speaker, his is a very reasonable request. Frankly I'm baffled by your earlier post, BPF, about basic flying skills and busted nose wheels. Such skills may well " take precedence" if that phrase means anything in this context. But they aren't what we've been asked about here. Are you suggesting that using correct RT makes a busted nose wheel more likely?

In my experience pilots who are conscientious in one area, are also careful in others, so Michael ought to be commended for striving to get it right rather than told it doesn't really matter.

[dobbin1]

On saying that, the amount of professional pilots I hear saying "cleared to land 29" or the like is annoying. The only person that should be saying 'cleared' with respect to an aircraft in flight is an ATCO.

In the UK, and I assume most other parts of the world, pilots are required to read back their landing clearance. "Cleared to land runway 29 " is a perfectly acceptable thing for a pilot to say. Hard to understand what else you could say.

What do you say where you are based M-ONGO?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Michael hasn't complained that anyone's making a big deal about this. But from a new aspiring pilot and non native English speaker, his is a very reasonable request. Frankly I'm baffled by your earlier post, BPF, about basic flying skills and busted nose wheels. Such skills may well " take precedence" if that phrase means anything in this context. But they aren't what we've been asked about here. Are you suggesting that using correct RT makes a busted nose wheel more likely?

In my experience pilots who are conscientious in one area, are also careful in others, so Michael ought to be commended for striving to get it right rather than told it doesn't really matter.

I have personal experience as an instructor, of PPL students fixating on what to say on the radio to the detriment of learning the foundation skills and knowledge that are required to be able to effective control an airplane. This occurs either because they are intimidated by the thought of having to talk on the radio or because they think they "good" pilots have to sound like a British Airways Captain. Either way they are fixating on something that is not flight safety critical. Not landing on your nose wheel is flight safety critical.

Based on what the OP wrote he has already figured out what he needs to say and how to say it.

[M-ONGO]

What do you say where you are based M-ONGO?

xx-xxx cleared to land 29, surface wind xxx/xx.

land 29, xx-xxx.

[dobbin1]

Quote:
xx-xxx cleared to land 29, surface wind xxx/xx.

land 29, xx-xxx.
Definitely not correct for the UK, and since this scenario is not mentioned in the list of differences between UK and ICAO, I assume also not correct under ICAO. The correct phraseology in the UK is:

ATC "G-CD, Runway 29, cleared to land, surface wind xxx/xx"
A/C "Runway 29, cleared to land, G-CD"

Where are you based M-ONGO?

[deefer dog]

M-ONGO...

Sorry squire, but I am one of those who reads back "cleared" to land runway..." and I have been saying that for more than 40 years!

Actually I have NEVER heard anyone using your suggested "land" phraseology.

[Pull what]

Makes me wonder where any of you fly
This is the CAP 413 version for an airfield with an AFIS

G-CD, Land at your discretion, surface wind 050 10 knots

Response
Roger, G-CD

BIOS is a student pilot. If an instructor is making a big deal about the likes of "flaps up" vs "flaps in"

Both ambiguous! Should be flaps zero- to flaps full. Flaps up doesnt mean anything! Flaps up to what? Flaps from full to 25 is flaps up! Flaps 25 to 10 is flaps up!

In my experience pilots who are conscientious in one area, are also careful in others, so Michael ought to be commended for striving to get it right rather than told it doesn't really matter.

Well said and quite correct. Pilots who bust nosewheels and pilots who cant use CAP 413 RT suffer from the same thing-lack of knowledge and this lack of knowledge is usually as a result of poor instruction from instructors who have low standards themselves.

You cant teach disciplined professional flying unless you adhere to those standards yourself. One of those disciplines is standardisation. I regularly fly in a circuit where every flying school and seemingly every instructor uses their own made up RT procedures which makes it difficult to teach CAP 413 RT. You also need to consider that the student then goes on to a RT instructor for the RT qualification who in a lot of cases have to start again with the student due to poor instruction.

By all means dont be anal about it at first and I dont care about the obvious mistakes students make when they start on the RT as long as they work towards standard CAP 413 phraseology but you must have one hymn sheet that everyone can sing from. That is not only common sense but best practice plus a student is paying to be taught CAP 413 procedure, not your personal take upon it!.

CAP 413 says
Radiotelephony provides the means by which pilots of aircraft and ground
personnel communicate with each other. To ensure communications are
clear and fully understood it is of vital importance that transmissions by
radiotelephony should comply with internationally agreed procedures and
phraseology

[BiOS]

Hi guys, thank you very much for all the advices and replies you posted! I'm really sorry for my late reply, I've been a little busy until summer. Although, I practiced phraseology a lot, not only sitting on my chair, and it helped!
I wanted to thank Whopity for rapidly linking me doc. 9432, the best resource I could have gotten information from: the official one! :ok:

I have immediately noticed my COMs where ****-loaded with tons of useless terms and stuff. I amended the sheet myself and now I feel way more relaxed with the mic!

Anyway, my instructor always told me not to be shy when communicating, because people on the other side knew I was a student pilot. He required me using a correct phraseology in the overall (like the previous one is, since it contains all the needed info and readbacks) but he wasn't anal about it. I was spontaneous on trying to amend my phraseology, because I knew something could have improved, but I was seeking the best improvement possible and thank to YOU GUYS I've understood that I just need to be fluent, clear and say the necessary, no more. I think experience plays a key role here, but It will come with some time haha :) I just want to say that adopting the correct phraseology helped me a lot, since it was everything more linear, less confusing and less stressing, that's why I think that communicating the correct way can even increase (and not to decrease) piloting quality: it helps having important information "stow and latch" in your mind and helps knowing constantly your position, keeping situational awareness high :D
But it's just my opinion...

Thank you very much again! Happy landings!

[Whopity]

Pleased you found the 9432. That was actually copied from CAP413 Edition 1. CAP413 has moved on, but is exclusively UK phraseology. Following an accident at Northolt resulting in an aircraft on the main road, the enquiry discovered that there were 5 different sets of phraseology in use in the UK:

CAP413
ICAO 9432
British Military JSP318
NATO
NATO Europe

To say nothing of all the homemade variants, not surprising there is confusion.

[rarelyathome]

Pull What.

That's because you are not being given a clearance at an airfield with AFIS and, therefore, you are nor required to read it back. At an airfield with ATC you are being given a clearance and are required to read it back. Hence "G-XX cleared to land". :ok:

[Pull what]

Hence "G-XX cleared to land"
Or to be correct, "cleared to land G-XX "

[Whopity]

CAP 413 says
Radiotelephony provides the means by which pilots of aircraft and ground
personnel communicate with each other. To ensure communications are
clear and fully understood it is of vital importance that transmissions by
radiotelephony should comply with internationally agreed procedures and
phraseology An interesting comment. Where is this Internationally Agreed phraseology published? Is it ICAO Doc 9432 which was a copy of CAP413 Edition 1? And of course is the basis for the EASA Comms Exam. CAP 413 Edition 21 has moved on a bit, but is unique to the UK, and has never been Internationally Agreed.