Save the UK Police Air Support - e-petition

[Sky Sports]

Please take a minute to sign the e-petition to scrap the proposed cull of UK police air support.

Stop the Downsizing of our National Police Air Service - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/75135)

If you have longer than a minute, please go see your local MP.

Thank you :ok:

[Sky Sports]

TC

Thank you for making a pointless comment and keeping this thread at the top of the pile.
More of the same please. :ok:

[206Fan]

Signed. How many signatures do they need before the end of March? Can't believe they're considering downsizing the Police Helicopter force!

[SilsoeSid]

There are two e-petitions running for this at the moment;


Re-evaluate Future Provision of National Police Air Service in Rural Areas - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/75107)
Re-evaluate Future Provision of National Police Air Service in Rural Areas

Responsible department: Home Office

The National Police Air Service (NPAS) have announced that a number of existing police helicopter bases are to close.

The NPAS say that 98% of the population will be within 20 minutes flying time from a police air base.

This is all well and good if you live in an urban area where the 20 minute range circles overlap providing air cover from more than one helicopter base.

In rural, sparsely populated areas however, helicopter cover will be reduced as these areas are further than 20 minutes from any of the proposed air bases.

The areas at risk are large areas of rural Wales, East Anglia, Cornwall, Cumbria and the Lake District.

Please sign this petition to ask for a re-evaluation of this important service.

Stop the Downsizing of our National Police Air Service - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/75135)
Stop the Downsizing of our National Police Air Service

Responsible department: Home Office

This petition is to stop the closure of 10 NPAS helicopter bases which currently serve the UK Police Service.

The bases facing closure in 2016 are; Rhuddlan, Halfpenny Green, Pembrey, Ripley and Sheffield.

Durham Tees Valley, Warton, Wattisham, Husbands Bosworth and Lippitts Hill will close by 2017.

This will leave huge areas of the UK without any realistic air-support leaving the public at risk.



206 - I think this answers your question;

HM Government e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk)
What are e-petitions?

"e-petitions are an easy, personal way for you to influence government and Parliament in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in the House of Commons. You can find more information about how the House of Commons deals with e-petitions on the Backbench Business Committee website (http://www.parliament.uk/bbcom)"

[airpolice]

Thomas Coupling, well said, and it's a shame that Sky Sports lacks even some of your experience in this field.

There is no money for old fashioned air support, because there is no appetite for it in the corridors of power. As usual, it matters not whether it is a good idea, what will be will be, and it's not what used to be!

Thomas Wolfe was right, you can't go back.

The people now running the ASU "empire" don't want to hear about how is used to be. The emperor's new clothes are so much cheaper than the old way, and that's what they men in grey suits are telling everyone to provide, a cheaper service.


We hear people talking about "Dixon of Dock Green" having inspired a notion of old fashioned bobbying, and that image having been replaced with "The Sweeney", with Jack Reagan (Sheepskin Jackets & long hair) which in turn was replaced by "The Bill" and now with "Road Wars" as the current window on the job.

How do we go about finding a way to describe this "old fashioned" air support that we all miss?

Who would be your favourite character from the golden days of air support?


No names at this stage; Feel free to add to the list.

The northern UEO with less than ten years service. Legend, that's not a career, it's a tour of the building.

The unit who (almost) all had pilot's licences.

An ex army (SAS) Major who was a Chief Super but allegedly got bumped to the HO to do Air Support as he didn't get on with his Chief.

{ & his Oppo } The civvy from CAA who regulated the early days. Really nice bloke.

A "Lucky" Merseyside guy who got to end of his (ten year) Tenure, transfers out to a project at HQ. Project turns out to be, two years to find a new location for the ASU, finds it, sets it up, rejoins the unit after 2 years, with his ten year counter reset.

Pilot, not ex mil, who insists on referring to the rest of the crew as Knob Head Woodedntops. Ends up driving airliners.

Fixed wing crew member who blew up two APUs in the same week after being told not to touch the equipment.

The amateur journalist Pilot who went flying with the fuel caps sitting in the toe holes and came back early and out of fuel.

Female Sgt who holds on to a prisoner she had captured, having landed, and leaped out of the aircraft, "single crewed" and got a broken arm for her troubles.

A former Lynx display pilot who starred in a crashing squirrel video. "The door came loose but didn't come off, it just went far enough back to go into the tail rotor"

The UEO who regaled his audiences with tales of being able to strip and re assemble a Bren Gun whilst blindfolded, and of "Interviewing" suspects by the application of brute force.

[krypton_john]

They're not seriously proposing to have no helicopter support in the UK police are they?

Or would it be provided by some other agency?

[Sky Sports]

I'll add to the list air police, only this one comes not from the past, but the present and future of air support.

The head of an aviation 'business' who's only experience with choppers comes from sticking his own into female colleagues. Boom!

P.s. 12 years in air support.

[MightyGem]

The door came loose but didn't come off, it just went far enough back to go into the tail rotor
It wasn't a door, but an part of an engine cowling which came off. The reason for it coming loose was never established.

Here's two more. A UEO who had no more idea about running an Air Support than my Aunt Bessie.

A DUEO who stated publicly that he'd only send Observers on (free) Flight Safety Courses when it became compulsory.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

I believe Robinson make a police helicopter := .

Joking aside ec 135's and 145's cost a fortune why not in more rural areas use singles like 206's and 500's ? I know under current legislation they would be more limited in where and when they could go but if the French can fly 350's over London for a push bike race why can't the police

Cbs

[chopper2004]

Crazy,

Don't matter its still public service rules, and has to be twinned regardless of whether flying over one person, one sheep or a whole city...the notion is, for safety = twin. Also to carry the necessary equipment and fly in not brilliant weather conditions and pretty much around a clock, the single engine or single engined piston ain't gonna work.

Back in the late 70s, 80s, there were trials and use of single engined for police air support such Bell 206 and one leased AS350 with Mitsubishi logo to D & C.

There have been some exceptions with some public service ops electricity- with say the likes of the former short lived Schweizer 333 and Western Elec using Bell 206B

I knew the local French tv stations like RTE and RTL were using the likes of Helifrance with AS355 for the filming of Tour de France last year as they started in my neck of the woods but didnt see any Gendamarie AS350. Yes usually here its twin AS355 fro SKy or ITN or Beeb havent seen any single engined camera ships bar FlyingPixx R44. Yes there were Gendmarie outriders and vans escorting the cyclists but the only police helos I saw were the NPAS -in this case Suffolk force's EC135t2

Here are my photos from the event which started here in Cam (also on another thread below)

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/543137-tour-de-france-cambridge-french-eng-ships.html



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/Cambridge_Tour_de_France_French_TV_F_GMBA_5_zps02ecf987.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/Cambridge_Tour_de_France_French_TV_F_GMBA_4_zps67590413.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/Cambridge_Tour_de_France_BBC_G_TAKE_0_zpsa0f784f1.jpg

and said Gendamarie :)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/IMG_9698_zps6lplrwn7.jpg

Cheers

[PhlyingGuy]

Funny how the vast majority of US police helicopters are single engine and there isn't much of an issue there. Sure... If you can afford it, go twin... But that's more because of all the equipment you're putting in... Not the safety factor.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Speaking of the equipment how much is actually used every time it's on a job ? Camera , spotlight and radios I get what else does it need ?

CBS

[Sky Sports]

Eyeballs.....

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

To be fair having watched to many episodes of Police Intercepters how do you justify a helicopter 3 police units and a dog so you can arrests a guy who then gets a caution ?

CBS

[topradio]

CBS, spot on. As an outside observer I don't get it. They operate an expensive twin with all the necessary support and, as far as I can see, either spend their time buzzing around like the keystone cops with the nightsun on trying to follow a scrote in a stolen car, and IF they do manage to catch them it really doesn't matter as the guy will be out the next night doing it again. Or they are over the city filming a crowd in case somebody does something wrong and they may have it on tape.

I believe that there is an argument for a level of air support, but they really don't need all the toys that they have at the moment.

I know that if you are in the job you will see it differently, as its how you make your living and turkeys don't vote for Christmas, but as a tax payer all I see are big boys toys.

A few years ago the local plod boasted that in the last couple of years the helo had helped recover over 200K of stolen goods, the machine must have cost a few million in that time!

[jayteeto]

That attitude stinks. If you only seek value for money you have lost. Why not stop chasing muggers, they only nick a few quid. If someone beats the crap out of an innocent, ahhhhh stuff it, too expensive to investigate.
The fact is that helicopters are good at catching cars, wether a scrote or an armed robber is driving. They make criminals think twice, (doesnt always stop them). If you can afford it, get the right tools for the job, whatever the cost. If you cant afford it, stop pretending things are better and just get rid totally. Put up or shut up.

[topradio]

Sure, if you have the cash to spare then fine have what you want. When money is tight then spend it where it gives best value.

Why don't you have a chopper for every station then? Based on your argument that would be the correct use of resources.

Don't kid yourself that the bad guys are put off by the thought of a helicopter, they don't care (if only because the risk is made worth taking by the lamentably poor sentencing - not a police decision I know).

Most people know that police are not there to stop crime, mostly they record it (if they can't find a reason not to).

A while ago we had a break-in at work, I was called out a 1am and the chap in a uniform started to take my statement. Halfway through his radio chirped and he had to go - blue lights flashing. I haven't seen him or anybody else since (18 months ago)

[tigerfish]

Crazeybroadsword - topradio. I suppose it all comes down to whether you believe in the word of law at all. What does law matter? If its inconvenient to me to abide by it why should I comply?
That old guy down the road, he's passed it, an anyway I don't like the way he looks. if I bump him off who cares? Yes I know its against the law but what value is he giving to society? I'll actually be saving everyone money if I take him out.
Is that what you want? Whether the law is enforced or not comes down to how much it costs?
The Guy in the ASU gets to hear about a really dangerous vehicle pursuit that he could quite quickly bring to an end, - its putting everyone's life at risk. So should he deploy until he knows whether the driver has (a) committed murder or (b) failed to take out Insurance? Your decision! I know you wont go. Its only later you find out he shot dead 8 people in a bar because he was refused a drink. How's the cost benefit scale looking now?
TF

[Romeopapa]

You make the UK sound like New York Tigerfish however I see you are a police aviation consultant so that is your brief.

I have pointed out before most of the time UK police ASU money and manpower is wasted on mundane
petty crime such as this incident.

First published Wednesday 12 November 2014.

A van driver was arrested on drug charges and two other suspects fled from police in Crayford on Monday evening (November 10).

Met police officers noticed a van at the Tower Retail Park in Crayford Road and decided to investigate it further.

They stopped the vehicle at around 10.45pm and arrested the driver, a 19-year-old man, on suspicion of possession of cannabis.

Two of the passengers in the van ran off and the Met police helicopter helped search for the suspects, which have not yet been traced.

Enquiries continue and the driver has been bailed until January 7.

The bill for the helicopter must run to thousands on a petty crime that will not result in a custodial sentance.

Another example here over a non arrest domestic.

First published Monday 23 February 2015 in News
Last updated 22:36 Monday 23 February 2015
A police helicopter was seen circling Bourne End last night with officers now confirming they were called about a domestic disturbance.

Readers contacted the Bucks Free Press because of the police presence in the village yesterday evening and Thames Valley Police have now confirmed they were called at about 6.45pm.

No-one was arrested and officers said they could not confirm any other details about the “domestic issue”.

Helicopter crews had been above Bourne End at about 5.50pm that evening, with the official NPAS Benson Twitter account reporting a search for a vehicle following a domestic incident.

Decades ago a local PC on a bike would solved such events with some calm advice. Now the police gomin all guns blazing.

Incidents such as the above are happening every day in the UK.

[SilsoeSid]

RP,

I have pointed out before most of the time UK police ASU money and manpower is wasted on mundane petty crime such as this incident.

In your first example, what if known associates of the arrested man in the van were wanted murderers?

In your second example, how can you possibly know the previous history of that address and more specifically what happened that particular evening. If you read your post, the helicopter was looking for a vehicle. Just because no arrests were made, doesn't mean there was no baddy to arrest (Carl Mills ring any bells?)

There's always a bigger picture my friend, personally I have seen your so called mundane and small incidents turn into some quite large ones.
Please define for us 'mundane petty crime' and 'small incident' .

[Romeopapa]

I take it you have not bothered to read the regular tweets from the various units?

Here is another example of disproprtionate waste of public money.....

From the Thurrock Gazette.

A South Ockendon helicopter operation to catch a man for car theft has ended successfully with a court hearing.

Thomas Enever, 38, of Hampden Crescent, Warley, who is unemployed, has been charged with using a motor vehicle without insurance and driving whilst disqualified.

The multi-man pursuit involved CID officers, a dog unit, South Ockendon police officers, and a police helicopter.

He was arrested on 1.25pm on February 12 in in Aire Drive, South Ockendon.

The arrest came following an incident in Warley where a Vauxhall Corsa was taken from a driveway.

The car was recovered and returned to its owner.

His hearing is set for February 27 at Basildon Magistrates' Court. He has been bailed till then.
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/news/11799600.South_Ockendon_helicopter_chase_leads_to_court_hear ing/?ref=mr

Total cost probably well north of £10,000:ok:

Or perhaps this heinous crime was worth the effort?

The police helicopter, a dog unit and officers were out in force to arrest two men following the theft of a Land Rover.(according to a report in last weeks Maldon Standard!)

An Essex Police spokesman said: “Two men were arrested last night following the theft of a Land Rover in Purleigh.


“Police were called around 10.20pm to a report the Land Rover Defender had been stolen from a house in Purleigh.

“The police helicopter assisted and located and tracked the vehicle to Rawreth Lane, Rawreth.

“Officers on the ground attended and arrested two men on suspicion of theft of a motor vehicle.

“One of the men was from Braintree and one from Pitsea, both aged 19.

“They were taken to Chelmsford Police Station for further questioning.”

Sergeant Paul Austin of Maldon Police took to Twitter to spread the news of the arrests yesterday evening.

He tweeted: “Cracking job! Landrover stolen in #Purleigh this evening. Vehicle located by @NPAS_Boreham & suspects decamp. Two arrested by Dog unit!”

Essex is obviously as dangerous at parts of the Bronx or maybe the local chief has got another camera crew filming more reality tv?

[tigerfish]

RP Now I get it! We should dump all sorts of detection equipment incase we inadvertently arrest someone who just might be bailed or let off by the courts!

Actually come to think about it, why have a Police Force at all? I'm sure that based on your philosophy once people got used to the fact that all laws were a waste of time because the courts take too lenient a view sometimes, then eventually it would all settle down. No one would have the right to life or own property freedom for all! Is that it?
TF

[Romeopapa]

Not at all but expensive manpower and equipment needs to be used with common sense.

Scanning through the various police helicopter units tweets that does not appear to be the case and frequently the helicopter crew are called in simply because they are there.

Just look at this disproportionate response to an incident that could have been sorted out on the ground by some old fashioned style policing.

This event was reported in Sidcups local paper last week.

'7 police cars and vans and a helicopter' called to Sidcup station after man prevents train from leaving.

Police were called to Sidcup station yesterday evening (January 15) after a man prevented a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.

At the time of the incident, which happened at around 10pm, Abbie Thomson tweeted: "Just followed a police chase, about 7 police cars and vans and a helicopter at Sidcup station.

"What the f*** has happened."

A police spokesman said: "We were called to Sidcup railway station just after 10pm after a report of a man preventing a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.

"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.

"Words of advice were given and no further action was taken.

"The train departed prior to officers arriving."

Whoever authorised the response needs their head checking.

It was obviously a guy trying to hold the train for his late running friend.

It is impossible to enjoy London anymore without the incessant wailing of police sirens and the persistent sound of helicopters overhead. The city has more cameras than anywhere else on the planet.

In Singapore or Bangkok the matter would have been dealt with without the above scenario.

[John Eacott]

Romeopapa,

You have made your point (futile as it is) ad infinitum and are becoming a tedious troll. I'd suggest a break, or go to the Avalon Airshow and relax.

Meanwhile the issue of law enforcement is to do just that, both to apprehend criminals and to discourage others from offending by enforcing the law. Cherry picking statistics (from Twitter, for goodness sake!) achieves nothing in the face of contributions from experienced and knowledgeable professionals.

Using a helicopter as an airborne divvy van has been and gone in Victoria (ASTRO, as it was known) as it was essentially a Melbourne-centric service. The UK has had such success with a similar concept that the bean counters seem to have forgotten such problems as ram raids (which were both financially and socially expensive) that have been all but stopped by good policing including the use of Polair helicopters.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Romeopapa]

The problem in the UK John is the police are still using helicopters as airborne divvy vans. (Oz speak for police vans used to round up minor hooligans usually drunks on a Saturday night).

The tweets are from police air support units!

The costs of police air support is funded by the public.

Meanwhile the excellent network of air ambulances has to rely on charity.

There is probably a future where both operations are combined to a degree.
UK air ambulance crews could easily carry out missing persons tasks.

The Australian police do not waste money the way their pom cousins do. Their fleet has much more of a public service remit including air ambulance tasking.

This thread is about an e-petition so there will be discussion on both sides.

Looking at the number who have signed so far it looks like being a dismal failure.

By posting recent examples of newspaper stories highlighting the blatant waste by those in command is just demonstrating what the public reads everyday.

I don't see what my support for the Melbourne air show has to do with this:=

[jayteeto]

If the criminals don't care about the helicopter, why did Merseyside finest try SO hard to destroy ours? We were affecting their businesses, finding cannabis farms, helping deny the roads. (Do some research on that, it works). When you "get out there" and start turning stones over, 99 are trivial stops but one is a biggie. The day you take your attitude, you have lost. You can spout all you want about value for money, policing ISN'T value for money, like defence spending.
It's about the social level you are prepared to go down to.

How low will YOU go????????

[jayteeto]

PS, in some areas of the UK, if you send a "plod on a bike" to deal with crime........ he will return without a bike.......

[Romeopapa]

They would not stop so low as a bike in Liverpool. A police car at least:ok:

Meanwhile from Police Magazine.

And in other news, it turns out one silly copper reported his own car as stolen.

The unnamed PC was tracking down a suspect in Doncaster, Yorkshire, when he hopped in an unmarked police car to knock on some doors.

But after getting no joy he decided to used automatic number plate recognition to find out if the suspect’s motor was parked in the street.

To his shock he discovered a silver Vauxhall Corsa and, not realising it was the car he’d just stepped out of, contacted his colleagues to report a stolen police

However, when his colleague arrived on the scene, the red-faced officer was told: ‘That’s our bloody car, you’ve just got out of it.’

A police source said: ‘There are a few unmarked pool cars which officers can use as and when they need them.

‘This officer obviously didn’t clock the car he was using and radioed it in as a potentially stolen police car – it’s highly embarrassing, but policemen are only human and make mistakes.’

[chopjock]

This whole problem on how to fund the NPAS could be solved if the home office did a deal with the CAA and negotiated an exemption from public transport rules and twin engine compliance.:ok:
Simples.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Fact: Two EC135s covering 5 counties prior to NPAS cost £1000 per flying hour this includes the paperclip.

Fact: the Helicopter is a force multiplier!!!!!! Helicopter gets on scene quickly, gets a handle on the task easily due to it's unique perspective, sorts it just as quickly, if tetra allows, and leaves. This means the units on the ground the staff in the control room can move on to the next burning issue so much quicker. Therefore you can tick off 10 tasks an hour with the helicopter involved compared to 1 without the helicopter because the helicopter saves you 10.000s in man hours on the ground.

Not to mention how it generates a safety blanket for the poorly paid bobbies on the ground in their much reduced numbers.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[tigerfish]

Brilliant Stuff

Spot on!

TF

[air pig]

As an outsider, we have seen what Reaper and Preditor can do, maybe a smaller sized version could do the helicopters job. Drone technology is the way to go.

[SilsoeSid]

Have I missed the links to these petitions?

Drones
Single engines
Tougher sentencing

:confused:

[Nail The Dream]

RP,

Now your posts are not only boring but completely irrelevant -
what has that "story" of the Corsa got to do with Police Air Support ?

Whilst I wouldn' wish it on anyone, I wonder what your attitude would be
if it was YOU or one of yours that had their Land Rover / car stolen,
or were criticailly injured or worse by collsion with same,
or it was one of your Relatives that had gone missing,
or was subject of a violent domestric incident,
or touched by any of the multitude of tasks that Police air Support regularly assist with?
( Try Googling how many people are murdered in the UK as a result of a Domestic incident ).

Chopjock - Still banging the same old drum - the skin must be wearing thin by now.

Sadly, as most of us know, the likelihood of either petiton making any difference at all, is extremely low -
Decisions have been made, and orders have been given,
just like when Nick Herbert first ordered that all forces SHALL join NPAS, no matter what !

Nail

[Romeopapa]

The point I am trying to make is the the way a valuable resource such as police air support is wasted in around 75% of all cases.

For sure the pilots air observers and ground staff want to retain the bases but the man in the street is paying.

The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.

A GoPro on a telescopic van mounted mast is a hell of a lot cheaper than air support for shooting pictures of an RTA.

Drones can also do a lot of the misper work for a fraction of the cost.

I appreciate air support officers like being in the cushy exciting world of aviation but they joined as PC's and thats where they will return.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Romeopapa,

Where do you live?

Are you retired per chance?

[tigerfish]

RP,
Policing might be that quiet in OZ but I can assure you that in the UK most times in our Cities it is not.

As a Chief Inspector in the 80's I was getting totally disillusioned by the numbers of fast Hatchbacks that were being stolen. Most of the time just to try & goad the Police into entering into high speed chases. I can tell you it was bloody dangerous.

Then came ram raiding! The UK rapidly became the ram raiding capital of Europe. Again it was pretty hopeless, - we had lost the initiative and were suffering as a result.

The advent of the Police helicopter gave us back that initiative, we caught the ****ards nearly every time. That soon stopped their game.
Muggings were reduced too! Photographing accident scenes only came about because we were airborne anyway and could do it on the way back from an operational shout. So did many other less important cases.

But part of our trouble was that our efficiency brought about a reduction in crime, & politicians wanted to spend elsewhere. At the same time many of our units forgot the vital need to keep on telling people just how good we were at keeping the lid on it.

Well its practically all gone now NPAs reins supreme and rapid response a thing of the past. I wonder how long it will take before the criminal realizes its open house again!
TF

[Romeopapa]

Interesting you suggest a police helicopter can stop a mugging?

How exactly can you achieve that?

When an innocent newspaper vendor was caught up in a so called police 'kettling' operation a couple of years ago no footage came from the Met helicopters to show the true story.

The victim was thrown to the ground by a PC and public and press footage later incriminated the officer who was dismissed.

Technology has seen rapid development in drones and GoPro cameras.

Why does London need helicopters hovering overhead when there are thousands of ground based cameras with higher definition plus cameras on buses taxis etc .

Australia is a unique situation. A massive country with few people out side the five big cities but
crime spread across huge areas.

Police use helicopters for crime management ,paramedic and search and rescue work.

Perhaps there is an argument for combined ops in rural Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland?

[Sky Sports]

RP

You really have no idea, do you.

Yes, air support may be 'wasted' - please define wasted, by the way - in 75% of tasks, (please quote the unbiased source for this figure), but that is with hindsight. It's only by deploying to these jobs and investigating from a safe distance, do we know if it is a crap job or something that is worth the cost and then some.

Drones for mispers! Are you having a laugh? Would you be happy to take the kit out the back of your patrol car, lug it across the fields for a couple of miles to start the search from the last known position?
How would you cover the 15 mile route of the search quickly? Running behind it with the remote controller around your neck?
Is there a commercial drone available that can do TI searches?

Can you photo a half mile of relevant road for an RTA fatal inquiry with a camera on a stick? Not unless your stick can extend to 500'.

[tigerfish]

RP,
You really are a bit sad! Helicopters stop muggings by making the arrest of the culprit more likely. Strangely enough the increased likelihood of getting caught reduces the culprits enthusiasm for the job.
My view on the subject is not imagination for I have been the person responsible to the public for the success or otherwise of my anti crime measures.
In the years 1990 - 1995 we had air support on a temporary abd casual basis. 3 months there and three months not etc. During that period we could mirror the rise & fall of our street crime by the presence or not of our Helicopter.
Also we stopped the helicopter at 0300 to save money. We soon noticed that crime after 0300 was rising!
The temporary cure for that one was for the control room to have periodic conversations with our none existing aircraft. Ground based units suitable briefed provided the other end of the conversation!

So what it worked for a while!

I say again RP you have a very shallow knowledge of Police work. Age and service length please!
TF

[Romeopapa]

As Mandy Rice one famously said during the Profumo Affair.....

Well he would say that wouldn't he.

Quite a few non pilot posters on here with vested interests.

However the bean counters and accountants see the true picture of around only
25% of all police air ops being justified as cost effective.

The modern UK police force now fast tracks graduate entrants to Inspector in three years so avoiding the old plod to Sweeney model.

With police budgets being cut to the bone there has to be better ways to spend the budget.

Does anyone ever do a debrief on wasted operations?

Tigerfish....I am old enough to remember Julian Verity starting the South Wales police ops from Cardiff Wales airport and building the hangar at Tremorfa while at the same time my aircraft was serviced by Robertson's at Lulsgate in the days of G-OLLY.

As for your ridiculous remark regarding the relationship between muggings and air ops I assume you have never seen a street assault. All over in seconds and culprits long gone before plod arrives.

The best way of fighting street crime is the town and city camera network not a big expensive toy.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Fact: Once the helicopter is in the air for job 1 it will 8 times out of 10 pick up another couple of jobs with a far better chance of a good result because its so far much further ahead of the drag curve.

You gotta be in it to win it!

[Fortyodd2]

"the bean counters and accountants see the true picture of around only
25% of all police air ops being justified as cost effective"

Utter b@ll@x
The bean counters and accountants know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[Colonal Mustard]

RP,

May i ask your background in UK air policing?

Rgds

CM

[jayteeto]

Im just about to go on holiday, so i will accept the ban from the moderators. I feel that i speak for the majority. This isnt emotional, it is deliberate and thought out.

RP, you really are a trolling thick ********

[jayteeto]

That was auto censored. I said d i c k head

[Romeopapa]

I have spent a fortune paying for it over decades:ok:

I pay for my own flying and never want to waste money.

Do you pay for your flying?

If not you are just the driver or passenger who takes a free ride sanctioned by an accountant.

The numbers on the petition so far echo my views that the current police model reflects cutbacks across the public purse.

[Brilliant Stuff]

In my opinion unless you have prior experience you shouldn't really opine on stuff you have no experience about.

[Colonal Mustard]

RP,

So am i correct in thinking that you have no experience working at an Air Support Unit either as a Pilot or Observer?

Jayteeto, understand your frustrations but to all of the longstanding posters here, lets keep it calm and considered.

The right questions posed will generate the necessary answers..

CM

[Romeopapa]

So is this a petition from turkeys banning Christmas?

It is easy to wade through the posts and discover a lot from observers who don't want to go back on the beat.

I have 35 years of piloting in my log book.

What about you Colonel M?

[Colonal Mustard]

RP,

is that an answer to your ASU experience or a reference to an earlier unconnected post?,

I have many years working in the Private and public aviation sector, not as a pilot i hasten to add but also have a keen interest in the NPAS transition due to my Public sector role.....So back to my original question,have you worked at an Air Support Unit as a Pilot.....or as an observer.. ?



CM

[Romeopapa]

UK and Australian taxpayer and pilot.

Not even 500 signatures so far and 100k needed to win.

I doubt this will even make 2k.

What do you fly P1 Colonal?

I suspect a Mk1desk?

Brilliantstuff

Showing your inexperience regarding west Wales and Haverfordwest.

I go back to the early days of Julian Verity at Cardiff Wales with his one green and red B206 in the 1980's when you were still probably in junior school.

[Colonal Mustard]

RP,


My P1 is a ford.....and a desk...not a pilot as i have previously stated but with a few thousand hours in the passenger seat,ground handler, refueller etc (prior to my public sector role)..oh and i'm not an observer for any ASU, never have been, never would do

My question is have you any experience flying for any of the ASU's or have you been an observer for them?, obviously as a fixed wing pilot your options are limited unless you also have a rotary ATPL?

Absolutely agree that you have an opinion on how tax money should be spent but the answer to my ASU question will allow me and others to understand whether you have formed your opinion from doing the job....or from public perception..(as a taxpayer).

regards

CM

[Romeopapa]

My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.

One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales.

Only used when there was a proper requirement and sanctioned from above.

Now the air support as they are called lift for stupid events like the two guys delaying a train by a few minutes:ok:

[Colonal Mustard]

RP,

Many thanks, that makes it clearer for me, and others undoutedly (public perception)

CM

[jayteeto]

Do I pay for my flying? Her Majesty got me the helicopter hours, but my £35000 got me the ATPL Aeroplanes. I do a bit of 152 flying for fun.
Nearly 8000 in my log book, 3000 of them EC135. Quite a few of them counter terrorism and police.
I am an accountants whipping boy? Of course I am, any professional pilot is. Doesnt mean that I dont know what I am talking about.
Where you are REALLY really wrong is the deterrent effect of an aircraft. It cant be proved of course, but those of us experienced KNOW it works. Sadly we have nothing but knowledge to back it up.
What you dont realise, is that we agree with many of your points. Money does have to be saved, bases do have to be cut, streamlining is necessary, we HAVE to modernise.
Our argument is that it has been done using lies, deception and simply incorrectly. The wrong decisions have often been made, some excellent decisions as well. The good bad ratio hasnt been good enough.
How could i sum it up........

The bosses should say: the service IS reduced, some areas WILL have poor coverage. Unfortunately we are so skint this is the only option, so 'suck it up'
Not the, everything is wonderful and improved bull.
Just tell the truth.......

[Romeopapa]

Nice post JT

Like the curates egg it is good in parts but I guess we sing from the same hymn sheet.

I have to disagree with one point you make.

Fun and a 152 don't belong together.

Do you mean the freedom of not being told where to go?

TC seems to also see the future.

As for a helicopter being a deterrent....the entire US military could not achieve that on Merseyside:ok:

[Welsh Wizzard]

Romeopapa ............. I am trying to place you ? However yes you are quite correct, we gave S.Wales, Dyfed and Gwent great value for money. The simplicity of the Bell 206 served them well. Remember the Bell 206 that Dyfed subsequently bought themselves ? Pity the whole Police world got so complicated and expensive.

[MaxR]

jt2 - Absolutely spot on. Admit that the measures are to save money, look at where there is truly a need and have the gumption to say what the new service really is.

The idea of national air support is a good one and should save money simply by having procurement and management provided centrally.

Central management should have meant a better use of air support but from what I can see it has meant quite the reverse with units seeming to fly regardless of the efficacy of doing so. One SMT, rather than 30 inspectors and sergeants, should have provided savings through more intelligent use of air support.

There is undoubtedly a need to save money and, I would argue, that RP is correct in some of what he says. A lot of the flying done by units throughout the UK seems wasteful and unnecessary and - contrary to what Sky Sports said - anyone with a bit of sense and five minutes in the job could tell you that it was a pointless waste of time and money before lifting.

I have read a great deal about the central control centre but fail to see why it's needed. A regional radio channel monitored by professionals with understanding of what is a reasonable request and with real tactical decision making responsibility, which was available to all local forces would surely see appropriate and timely response.

Technology and CCTV has meant that the detection of urban crime and the deterrent effect previously supplied by air support is now not required to the same extent as it was. TF is right about what ASUs did in the 80s and 90s - and he can be rightly proud of what was achieved - but they are simply not required to such a degree in that role any longer.

There need to be fewer bases, there need to be fewer aircraft, there needs to be joined up thinking in fleet composition and inter-agency co-operation. Perhaps fewer aircraft and fewer bases really can be more effective and efficient but not if the remaining bases are simply doing what has been done for twenty or thirty years.

I'm not involved in police aviation and I acknowledge that it is always simple to run other people's business for them but it would appear to me that decisions were originally made in isolation without the benefit of understanding and then several years have been spent pretending that all was well while all the middle and lower level yes men confirmed that for the top brass.

Covering 90% of the population poorly is not better than covering 70% well and being honest about it. It seems to me that to chop coverage in rural areas simply because few people live there - which is precisely what makes air support effective in many cases - is muddle-headed. Then to pretend that this is somehow providing a better service is just plain wrong.

Just my two-pennyworth.

[Sky Sports]

RP

You still keep throwing these percentage figures round. 75% here, 25% there.
Please please please can you tell us where you got them? To be taken even remotely seriously you need to post links to the reports / studies that you got them from.

Or, is it answer B, you have bugger all experience of police air support, you are anti-police because they once gave you a speeding ticket and you are making up all your 'facts and figures' because you have a chip on your shoulder?

[Sky Sports]

Hopefully this will put the 'waste of money' debate to bed. But, it will need an honest answer from the doubters.

My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.

Now, RomeoPapa, be honest with me, if one of your relatives were captured by ISIS and appeared in a video in an orange jumpsuit, kneeling in the desert, would you pay a £185,000 ransom to save their life?

Or would it be a waste of money?


Assuming you say yes, and we agree that £185,000 to save a life is value for money, then everything else an air support unit does for the rest of the year is surely fantastic value for money, because the cost has been allocated to the lives saved.
Looking for a cat up a tree becomes free and is therefore value for money!

Just goes to show that as a bean counter you can prove and justify everything you want to. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

RP;
The like of Silso can not defend the wasted time and money such as the railway incident I quoted.



Sorry RP, I didn't realise I had to justify every police helicopter deployment to you, however, as you ask;

I take it this is the Sidcup railway incident you refer to;

'7 police cars and vans and a helicopter' called to Sidcup station after man prevents train from leaving (From This Is Local London) (http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/11731040._7_police_cars_and_vans_and_a_helicopter__called_to _Sidcup_station_after_man_prevents_train_from_leaving/)

If you would care to read the detail, there were two men involved, one of which ran along the railway line to escape the police.

A police spokesman said: "We were called to Sidcup railway station just after 10pm after a report of a man preventing a train from leaving by obstructing the doors.

"BTP officers attended, alongside colleagues from the Metropolitan Police Service, and stopped two men close to the station.

Eyewitness - "I believe that one of them possibly ran off down the track towards Albany Park. The police were checking between the houses in Faraday and the chopper was over Abbeyhill park."

According to you it was "just a bloke holding the door open for his mate", however someone running down a railway line is a little more life threatening than that now isn't it?

Wasn't it earlier said on a similar thread that the main priority for air support is saving life .....

[SilsoeSid]

In regards to RP, anyone else having memories of Ye Olde Pilot?

[tigerfish]

MaxR,
Thank you for your comments and for what its worth I think your post was one of the most accurate so far.

I agree that in this current financial crisis, just about every reasonably minded person would accept that there had to be savings, and that some units and bases might have to go.

But instead of looking at it carefully over a period of time, & gathering evidence, the NPAS circus announced the demise of several units even before they took over. To make matters worse, the ones announced as being cut, were often some of the best like Merseyside.

Then came the bare faced lies. "To save money? - No - you've got it all wrong, this is being done to make it more efficient".

"Look at this way, - before NPAS you only had one aircraft, now you can call on four" etc etc. Strictly true in theory, but not in operational practice.

If they hadn't tried to treat us all like dummies the response would have been different. Remember, - I said we all knew that there would have to be some savings.

I've said it before, but I have been involved in the development of UK Police Aviation since 1984. I have always supported the concept of Regional and National governance. That was the only true way to become more efficient and to save monies. BUT NPAS HAD ONLY ONE PURPOSE! That being to cut millions of pounds sterling from the budget and to hell with efficiency!

Their Mantra was, - Only a Senior officer should be able to call for assistance from Air Support,
What does the Bobby on the beat up to his neck in Sh** know about it anyway?

TF:mad:

[Colonal Mustard]

I remember the name, the archive shows that YoP was based in Asia and Sussex, so the Asia bit is similar....

I'll see what the rest of the archive shows

"Ye Olde Pilot Join Date Apr 2006 Location Sussex and Asia Posts 173

[Sky Sports]

I'm prepared to wager that he once applied for a police pilot job, but was turned down! That might also explain his chip.

[MaxR]

TF - Thank you, if I'm going to be in agreement with anyone on here then I'm glad it's you.

Sky Sports - I couldn't agree more with you that saving a life is worth whatever it costs but surely that doesn't mean, once you've done that, it's okay to pi$$ the rest of your budget away doing tasks which don't warrant the use of a helicopter. Your logic could not be more flawed nor could you be further away from proving or justifying anything.

[Thomas coupling]

Only 99,877 votes to go before the end of March, now! :ugh:

[Sky Sports]

TC

99,877 votes not needed anymore. My MP has agreed to raise the issue in the commons.

[SilsoeSid]

Well, I hope you have briefed your MP truthfully.

[Sky Sports]

His FOI request should see to it that he has all the relevent facts and figures.

It might take a while to get an answer, because, apparently, there is already a stack of them on someone's desk in Wakefield.

[Thomas coupling]

Sky: well it won't be because of the petition that's for certain. No politician worth his salt is going to raise his head above the parapet for 113 votes :hmm:

He may add the issue to part of another general question about policing but that's about as far as it will go. It will be drowned out by cries from other MP's about cutbacks in the police force that really will hurt - like....................................................poli cing :mad:

[Sky Sports]

:ugh:
:ugh:
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[Coconutty]

Before this degenerates further into one "anti" Hi-Jacking the whole Topic,
I can personally attest that a Police Helicopter CAN be effective in reducing Street robberies !

Several years ago I was involved in an "Operation" targetting exactly this type of crime, in an area where there was LOTS of it going on daily.

On every flight wherever possible, the aircraft would also pay a visit to the Target area and "fly the flag".

We would attend when en route to another Task if it was not an urgent deployment, and also on the way back, as well as between tasks.

We would fly lower than our usual profile, making it noisy and obvious to those on the ground that we were there - and that we were watching.

We would have the side door open with the rear Observer obviously scanning the area with Binoculars, and deploy the Nitesun at night.
"Ground troops" were called to anything at all that looked remotely suspicious.

On Day 1 it was the first day in over 2 years that there were NO reported Street robberies in the area, and over the 2 week period Street Robberies were down by over 40%, which could not be attributed to any other reason.

Was it "cost effective" ?- I don't know - I don't even know what that really means - How do you measure what it would have cost to deal with all the Street robberies that were prevented ????

Was it effective ? You bet it was !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Sky Sports;
Hopefully this will put the 'waste of money' debate to bed. But, it will need an honest answer from the doubters.

My unit costs @£1.3M per year to run.
In 2014 we had 115 misper searches.
Of those, 6 or 7 were very close to death when we found them in isolated locations.
This works out at £185,000 per life saved.

Sky, are you saying that in 2014 your unit found 7 missing persons?

[Romeopapa]

Coco

By your example the sound of the helicopter cut crime so maybe by the same token every police car should use blues and twos 24/7:ugh:

I am old enough to remember a cost effective police deterrent to crime.

It was called a beat bobby:ok:

To Andy and all others who think I am Doctor Who..

Nice to take the credit for other posters but just one RP who has taken the plunge in to the shark tank that is PP.

If I wanted to influence decisions then letters to MP's and local newspapers would have more impact than wasting time here with those who are just defending their monthly pay cheque:ok:

[Coconutty]

Rome,

I don't think you'll find many in here disagreeing with the idea
that you should go away and waste your time somewhere else :rolleyes:

( Oh, and Police cars don't have "two's" amymore -
that's just another delusion of the past you seem to be living in ).

No more Troll food from me !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg