(Other than) toe brake types?

[as fragged]

Hi All,
A question for the PP collective minds.
I'm interested to find any OZ and NZ registered types that do not use toe brakes.
From a search I found the early Tecman models used a park brake.
From memory, the nanchang and yak52. I vaguely remember something different about the Chipmunk brakes.
And obviously, anything with straight floats/skids ;)
Any additions to the list would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance
AF

[maverick22]

Jabirus have a hand/park brake.

[skkm]

Eurofox ultralights have a hand operated brake.

[asw28-866]

A proper(unmodified) Tiger Moth has no brake :*

[Ka6crpe]

My Ka6crpe has a hand operated brake. Once the air brakes are fully open, moving the lever back further operates the wheel brake. Nice and simple.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Chippy has a hand brake. partial application of the hand brake + rudder deflection gives partial braking on that side if I remember correctly (it must be 10 years since I last flew one).

Auster has heel brakes but only a couple of hours and many moons ago, so scant memory of how effective they might have been. Certainly, not very effective once Bloggs has lost it and you have commenced swapping ends :rolleyes:

[mustafagander]

Austers had heel brakes. That's right, you pushed on the little brake pedals with your heels. Not too bad until one heel slipped off the tiny little bugger!! Still and all, the aircraft had a fail safe - the brakes were not at all effective so you didn't lose much when you slipped off one.

[Plow King]

Old Cherokees? The '65 140 I fly doesn't have any toe brakes.

[Squawk7700]

Liberty / Discovery XL2 has "finger" brakes. You need man hands to operate them. Later models have toe brakes.

[chimbu warrior]

Tripacer had a hand brake only, as did early Cherokees, Cessna Airmaster had dual handbrakes (only 4 hands required in a crosswind), Austers (and lots of others of that era) had heel brakes only, and Doves had a yoke-mounted lever that applied pneumatic pressure to the brake on the side of the deflected rudder.

Toe-brakes are a luxury, but I think they might just catch on.

[djpil]

Airtourer only has a handbrake.

I note that the original question was related to the use of toe brakes, not whether a type had them or not.

I don't use the toe brakes on a Pitts.

[terminus mos]

Went backwards in an Auster once into a steaming headwind, full flap, I think the Stall speed was about 28 knots?

Oh how I hated those heel brakes, but soft Pommy grass can be quite forgiving so I always looked like I knew what I was doing with my shiny new PPL and 45 hours!

[Pinky the pilot]

One of the Robins used as a glider tug at the Gliding centre in Hokkaido has only a handbrake.

So used to it now that I actually prefer flying that particular aircraft. It handles better as well!:ok:

Also once flew a Super cub that had heel brakes.

[LeadSled]

and Doves had a yoke-mounted lever that applied pneumatic pressure to the brake

As did many British aircraft.

Tootle pip!!

[CHAIRMAN]

and Doves had a yoke-mounted lever that applied pneumatic pressure to the brake

And it works a treat, the 104 Squadron Dove will literally turn on a shilling (or two bob bit for locals):ok:

[Checkboard]

The De Havilland Heron had pneumatic brakes. Pull a lever on the yoke and depress a rudder for brakes, I think.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Cj6 Nanchang

[50 50]

Saw a brand new Super Cub at Narromine not that long ago with heel brakes.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Agree...Super Cub was heel brakes...unusual at first but recall not even worrying or thinking about it after not many hours....very very long time ago:{

[Altimeters]

The trusty old Tecnams also have a hand brake. Was interesting to get used to.

[Dexta]

Aeronca Champ 7EC/7FC (and possibly Chief) have heel brakes, not sure about the early Citabria's though.

[India Four Two]

Spitfire, Vampire/Venom have pneumatics, like the Dove. Not very powerful and prone to fading, just like all drum brakes.

Dexta,
I flew a Champ with heel brakes, but all the Citabrias I've flown had toe-brakes.

[Weekend_Warrior]

Many years ago I hired a PA28-140 at Wellington. No one bothered to tell me it didn't have toe brakes, just the hand brake.:ugh:
Damned near made a hole in the fence, grabbed the hand brake just in time.
Pretty sure I bent the pedals trying.

[4forward8back]

A proper(unmodified) Tiger Moth has no brake :*

I once flew a Tiger with a hand brake which acted only upon the tail wheel. Not what one would call 'effective'.

Nanchang CJ-6a, Yak 52 and Yak 18T all operate as per the Dove. Very useful, once you get past the "doughnuts-on-the-apron" stage and get the hang of it.

[AerocatS2A]

A "proper" Tiger Moth doesn't have a tail wheel either.

Mig 15 has a hand brake on the stick and I think the Polikarpov I16 and I153 may have had hand takes as well.

Another aircraft with an odd setup is the Aerocommander. It has toe brakes but the first inch or so of toe travel operates hydraulic nose wheel steering with the brakes becoming active if you push more than that.

[slamer.]

de havilland heron ... braking by tea-spoon

[dhavillandpilot]

Slammer, yes you could always tell a heron/dove pilot.

His/her left thumb was large and callused.

The early bag brakes were always fading to zero, but when you put the Handley Page jet stream discs on the brakes were a gem.

Push the handle too hard and you would feel the seat belt biting into your shoulders.

[Username here]

Bell 206. :ok::ok:

[Seagull V]

So what about the Chrislea series of light aircraft, Ace, Skyjeep, etc.? According to Wiki "The Ace had an unusual 'steering wheel' control arrangement which eliminated the conventional rudder bar. The wheel was mounted on a universal joint; turning it applied aileron, moving it vertically applied elevator and sideways the rudder."
I understand that this was "unpopular" with pilots, so later versions resorted to a flat on the floor sliding pedal arrangement, wherein the pilot slid his/her feet backwards and forwards to actuate the rudder.
How were the brakes operated on this type?


British engineering at its best.

[kaz3g]

Luscombe, Minicab come to mind. Also Flight Design and Drifter in the UL types.

My Auster's brakes are only good for taxiing (carefully).

Kaz

[BPA]

Sling 2, TC550 Texan, Pioneer etc, the majority of the aircraft operating under RAAUs.

[AbsoluteFokker]

This one appears to have no toe brakes.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/44964/e00012_001.jpg

[Vag277]

Taylorcraft BC 65, Porterfield LP 65

[NZFlyingKiwi]

As several have noted above, a lot of the old Super Cubs are fitted with heel brakes. When I did my rating I was assured I would get used to them but to be honest they always felt rather clumsy. I suppose the one advantage was somewhat less risk of inadvertently hitting a brake during rudder application.

[Gemini Twin]

The Dove and Heron and a brake ON OFF control on the yoke which sent air pressure to a differential valve assembly. The rudder pedals have a rod connected to the valve assemble which controlled the brake pressure to each wheel as required to steer. It worked great but changing the valve, then safetying all the B nuts was a pain!

[slamer.]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/7/1/9/1251917.jpg

[as fragged]

Hi All,
I'd like to thank you all for the info, and, of course the anecdotes - which make the topic a lot more interesting.
So here is the summary:
Straight floats (guessing 20)
Skids (1979)

Warbirds
Nanchang (43)
YAK50/52 (64)
YAK18 (19)
DH104 Doves (3)
DH114 Heron (0) + many of the motherlands’ aircraft
Spitfire (10)
Vampire (4)
Vemon (0)
Mig 15 (6)
Polikarpov I16 & I153 (0)

GA
‘real’ Tigers (some of 13+211)
Dragon (3)
Anything with ‘Moth’ in it’s name (200+)
Airtourer (76)
Chippy (55)
Auster (2)
Super Cub (12+41) (heel brakes)
Old Cherokees (??)
Tripacer (2)
Cessna 165 Airmaster (1)
Champion 7EC/7FC Chief and early Citabria’s (5+)
PA28 (some)
Pitts (honorary inclusion – doubt there is much wear on Pitts brakes!?!)
Robins (older ones?)
Sling 2 (2)
Jabiru (50)

RAAUS / UL etc
TC550 Texan
Pioneer
Eurofox UL
Tecman – early models
Liberty / Discovery XL2 – early models

Gliders
Most of them (100ish)?
Ka6crpe (sorry, had to Google that type – come to think of it the Blanik was the same, too!)

So guessing around 2880 of 15300: 20% of the CASA rego'd type are not toe braked.

Why you may ask? Well, you just never know what the aviation quiz masters will think of next!

Thanks again to all ( esp to djpil and tipsy for catching the omission!)

Cheers
AF

[tecman]

AF, even we early model Tecmans are adequately equipped :)

A few weeks after first getting into a low serial number Tecnam JF (the certified version), I felt pretty used to it and consequently landed it very well into an ..errr..maximum demonstrated x/w (from the left - worst case). No problem..very well behaved aircraft. All was fine until the very last stages of the roll-out when there was a noticeable bit of weather-cocking setting in. No problem..bit of right brake will assist. Except that I'd forgotten that there was no differential braking. While the weeds definitely beckoned, a bit of gentle dual braking got the nosewheel down, steering established and honour preserved.

I did threaten to have the differential braking kit fitted but have never gotten around to it. Main thing is just to remember what you're flying. Perhaps it's a bit easier because of the hours I spent chugging around in an old Cherokee with a similar brake setup.

[djpil]

I repeat: Airtourer

[tipsy2]

Just reinforce what djpil said

AIRTOURER:D

Tipsy.

[717tech]

Supercub has heel brakes. Tiger moth has a hand brake style lever (assuming it has brakes at all).

[mightyauster]

The Lockheed Hudson has a 'Johnson Bar', similar in operation to the brake lever on the Chipmunk. The Hudson at Temora still has this system.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A particular Tiger Moth I used to instruct on, and fly for pleasure, had the original U.K. 'spoon' type skid, until it proved to be absolutely useless on the hard sand of the W A wheatbelt, as it simply skidded over it.....

Then - the local LAME 'got onto it' and braised a 'T' piece to the bottom of the skid, fabricated from a 'bastard metal file' and - 'Lo & Behold' ....the effect was bleedin' marvellous.

As soon as the tail went down, the 'old girl' was able to be stopped 'on a dime'....

Was a real pleasure to fly, and to stop....as required.....

You may / may not find 'that' mod in the Flight Manual..... But, it DID work a 'treat'...

Cheers :ok:

[as fragged]

As always, the anecdotes you share are far superior to the statistics derived. Thanks to djpil and tipsy for picking up the omission, original summary edited.
Thanks again PP,
AF

[LeadSled]

'Johnson Bar'Folks,

I wonder who Johnson was, his bar must have been very versatile --- all B707 had one, but it was nothing to do with the brakes.

Tootle pip!!

[NZFlyingKiwi]

I think the control for the lever flaps found in Cherokees, Tomahawks, tailwheel Cessnas and myriad other aeroplanes is called a Johnson bar too isn't it?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The BIG lever gear retraction system on the older Mooneys was also called a "Johnson" bar! :ok:

[tecman]

I first heard the term in the Mooney gear context. One of my less distinguished moments involved somehow chopping an instructor's headset cable in the lever locking arrangement.

Turns out 'Johnson Bar' is fairly generic. See:

Johnson bar (vehicle) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_bar_(vehicle)))

[Pinky the pilot]

One of my less distinguished moments involved somehow chopping an instructor's headset cable in the lever locking arrangement.


So what was the problem?:confused::confused::E:E:E

[stevef]

The Partenavia P64 had its brake lever up in the roof. :rolleyes:

[HarleyD]

Chippy, hand operated lever against rudder bias

De Havilland Drover same,

Tiger, none

Jodel heel hydraulic and others cable drums

Cub heel some type

Auster heel

Stinson Sliding foot plates with multiplate hydraulic:eek:

Nanchang pneumatic stick lever with rudder bias:mad:

Scare tourer t handle hydraulic multiplate

Pitts scary:eek:

Cirrus, swivelling nose wheel, toe brakes for braking and steering :yuk:

More different marks of Auster - more heel brakes

Volmer 22 heel brakes on land, no brakes on water.

Cherokee 140, 180 and 235 Johnson bar also Piechaser and Comanche 180/250 IFAICR

Luscombe 8 heels brakes

Aeronca Champ heel brakes

Fly Baby heel brakes cobble operated drums

Corby starlet heel brakes cable operated drums

Robbo 22. No brakes:}

Many others toe brakes....too easy

HD

[Centaurus]

If I recall correctly, the Lockheed Hudson had a handbrake and differential braking (if that is the correct word) was available by pushing one rudder pedal called a rudder bar, while simultaneously pulling out the hand brake.

In a rejected take off, the amount of braking was very much dependent on how strong the pilot's right arm was. The position and angle of the hand brake lever made it difficult to pull right back due to the awkward angle of one's elbow. At Camden in 1949 a Hudson of the Sydney Morning Herald Flying Services aborted a take off in thick fog. I was the dispatcher and heard the sound of the engines being throttled back and then a quite terrifying sound of squealing tyres.

The pilot taxied back and did another take off in the fog and this time got airborne. Thirty minutes after the Hudson departed at 0400, I drove a jeep down the runway still with 100 metres of fog, to collect the flare pots and noticed the tyre skid marks curving off the runway. That Hudson came awful close to a ground-loop and was lucky to get away with it.

A few nights later at close to midnight on Ist January 1950, the same Hudson VH-SMK, and with the same pilot, the aircraft became airborne and around 500 feet stalled and crashed killing its two pilots. Investigators were unable to determine why the aircraft was allowed to stall. One possibility was a problem with the artificial horizon which may have been caged.

[HarleyD]

I recall seeing the RAAF Museum Hudson attempt a landing at PCK ( exact year not supplied) on RWY 22 whilst sitting outside the flying club one arvo,and, ka-boing ka-boing down the runway till mains firmly on the ground less than 200 m from end of runway, then swerve swerve screech and over the access road into the golf course, huuuuge ground loop then sedately taxi back out of dust cloud, across access road and back to museum apron.

Hahahahahahaha

Are army pilots really better at tail wheel ops?????? Not exactly sure if the brakes were the issue, but enormously entertaining for the troops.

HD