Another choke point in SE England / Southend get controlled airspace

[OpenCirrus619]

Info can be found here: Southend ACP Decision Letter v6.pdf (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2111/20150128%20Southend%20ACP%20Decision%20Letter%20v6.pdf)

Ho hum ...

OC619

[mikehallam]

I studied the four plans attached to the CAA issue letter. My aim was to compare before and after sizes; and then the RMZ 'trial' zone size too.

The CAA are telling lies.

Their first (of four) plans, described it as 'Pre-consultation' which implies that was the old original S'end zone: cunningly put that way it looks as if there's only been a minor change to the zone old versus new.

This is blatant if not careless bias by the CAA. Their 'Pre-Consultation' plan is actually the big one as initially claimed by S'end and NOT the original zone.

Also observe how their new zone drawing just happens to miss out depicting all the surrounding aerodromes now closely affected.
Nor to they address the question of poor old & weakly represented GA whose pilots will permanently suffer the dangers of the pinch effect now promulgated between London & S'end

Neither do they show the RMZ, temporarily tried, but shot down -
and by whom ?

Well purely on the say so of who else but S'end themselves ! With no-one else in the loop at this phase to challenge it.

Look at your charts, the true original Zone is quite a bit smaller !

mike hallam.

[thing]

Why a choke point? It's just Class D.

Although why airfields like Southend, Norwich and Doncaster have it or want it is quite frankly beyond me. I was at Gloucester last weekend talking to one of the wheels and they have up to 500 movements a day. They seem to manage quite well. As do Humberside who I think I'm correct in saying have far more movements than Doncaster just down the road. Although who knows, Gloucester Class D incoming? Maybe we should just make the whole of the country Class D and have done with it.

[ak7274]

Flaming ridiculous. Jumped up bunch of wassernames. Choked to the East of Stansted. Can't go further east due to D138. How about giving the great unwashed a couple of miles between Sarfend and London City to crash in. "I say Carruthers good form old chap"
And then we get the Airlines wanting GA to pay for services they are forcing on us. Why not make them pay for low powered 8.33 and Mode s? It's them who are making the profits at our loss.
That is one huge area of controlled airspace for a small airport. Why make it so complicated?
It makes me think about selling my aircraft and taking up Scrounging for a living. At least there is profit in it.
:mad:

[mad_jock]

It all depends on how they implemented ATSOCAS.

Also what the airlines want.

Southend though do seemed to have pissed off a large percentage of the local airspace users that don't use the airport.

They had an airprox with a jet and a commercial helicopter last year due to the helicopter not speaking to them. Which seems pretty common practise in the area.

Its all to do with de confliction service and them trying to get a sterile approach 5000ft high 8Nm by 10Nm and controlling VFR out of it.

[ChickenHouse]

How few did know of the established RMZ there last year? When I read the document I suspect nobody gave a damn to the RMZ, maybe even disabled display of G in all the electronics gadgetry? So it is consequent to make CTR now out of it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Southend though do seemed to have pissed off a large percentage of the local airspace users that don't use the airport.
They haven't pissed me off (yet). They've always given a helpful service when I've flown over the top of their runway, and I don't (yet) have any reason to suppose that this'll be any different in the future.

(They did once climb me into cloud and sounded very apologetic when I reported "G-CD level at 3,000, it's india mike charlie up here" but of course I'd have refused the request if I hadn't liked it.)

[150 Driver]

Chickenhouse,I would hope that anyone flying close to Southend would be aware of the RMZ, it is in the Notams which we check before each flight, don't we ?

I'm not keen on more Class D but why would it be 'pretty common practice' not to speak to a nearby commercial airport with big commercials flying ? Just because we can doesn't mean we should

FWIW in my experience i've never had any problem with Southend ATC, my encounters (dozen in the past year) with them have been nothing but professional, maybe I've been lucky.

[mad_jock]

It was all part of the process of getting it.

Even if every single plane had squirted mode C. The fact they weren't speaking to them or told them to poke it if they tried to control them out the way so they could give a de confliction service to a CAT with the possibility of a straight in unrestricted visual.

Didn't matter what the out come was they were going for it.

Its more an indication of how they have managed to annoy the majority of airspace users into not wanting to speak to them.

The fact that class D is less restrictive with separation also helps ie if the traffic is VFR it doesn't need separated form IFR. Which they would want to do under a de-confliction service.

The ATSOCAS is meant to be getting revamped, but they are not admitting what a complete and utter failure which has been detrimental to flight safety that the current system is.

Millions has been spent of controlled airspace due to it and the practise of regional airports in class G.

Your now more likely to have an airprox with a basic service than not taking a service at all.

[SidT]

On a positive note...

I have always found that the folks in ATC at Southend are almost without exception very helpful and friendly and some are GA type people themselves.

Talk to them and they will do their utmost to ensure you get a good service.

There have been many incidents of people "exercising their rights to the airspace" in the vicinity in the last few years who have caused problems by not thinking about what might be going on around them. Just because some airspace is uncontrolled doesn't mean you should use it without thought of what else might be there.

I fly in this airspace quite frequently and have always spoken with Soutehnd even when I haven't had to.... they have always been most helpful.

[mad_jock]

Just because we can doesn't mean we should

Many pilots quite a few of them commercial are just fed up of being over controlled out the way of inbounds. Especially when they can see the IFR inbound.

The only problems they have caused is the in ability of being able to give the separation that has been dictated locally as required on a de-confliction service.

And the commercial guys are fully aware of the "problems" it creates and their hearts bleed that easyjet has to do more track miles and therefore makes less profit.

Easier and cheaper to not speak to them.

The cost of obtaining the CAS will be passed onto the customer and the airport will not be as attractive as it was as the prices will go up.

BTW the major airprox which was more luck than judgment there wasn't smoking holes in the ground at southend was a commercial helicopter transiting 10-15 miles away not speaking to them while the radar was down. My reading of it was the CAT aircraft put themselves in danger by exposing themselves sub 5000ft for a long period doing the complete unprotected procedure. But they don't seem to want to look how the CAT aircraft are being operated in class G which does require a different way of thinking to in protected airspace.

They have cleaned up their act a lot since the solo student was killed as far as I can tell. But people have long memory's and a lot don't want anything to do with them.

But its cost the owners of Southend millions just to force pilots into speaking to them.

[astir 8]

Para 2.2 of the CAA letter

"LSA produced a Consultation Report demonstrating that it had taken account of stakeholder input to the consultation and as a result the shape and size of the proposed CTR/CTA was reduced to take account of the requirements of stakeholders"

Oh yes? Call me cynical but is there any proof of other than miniscule changes being made?

LSA producing the consultation report smacks of the fox being put in charge of the henhouse.

Coming up next. Farnborough and Inverness finalised airspace grabs after "consultations"

[mad_jock]

Basically anyone that is willing to pay the consultants and apply's for controlled airspace is going to get it in the current state of play.

It doesn't matter what anyone says or how stupid the amount of air they want to grab they will get ruffly the same which will be a CTZ with 5 miles either side of it by 8 miles off the end of the runway up to 3.5k feet. The areas outside that which reverse wedding cake up with bits coming off to link into airways. Or not in the case of Norwich.

As with Inverness's case sometimes the amount of airspace they are given will mean you can go places which currently they try and bully you out of.

But realistically it matters not one jot what anyone says about the proposed airspace the powers that be will always say that Class D does not restrict the movement of GA and it is safer than class G. So any bitching that it will exclude GA users will be ignored.

Both Inverness and Farnborough will get there airspace.

After Norwich got it, it was pretty much obvious that anyone that pay's the money to jump through the hoops will get it. Mainly because if it was refused an subsequently there was a mid air nobody wants the finger pointed at them to say they are to blame for refusing the application.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Class D does not restrict the movement of GAJock, are you saying (or are you saying someone is saying) my non transponder equipped three-axis microlight would be allowed into class D in the UK? Always?

[mad_jock]

There is nothing in theory to stop it going in.

Which is what the airport requesting CAS will say.

But as we all know that once the airspace is controlled the ATCO's have the power of refusal due to a variety of reasons.

But in this case you will still be a huge pain in the arse under the stub without a transponder as you will keep going in and out of the primary and keep giving them pop up primary traffic and because your not squirting mode C.

Mode A only is going to be an even bigger pain because its going to give loads of traffic warnings on the CAT TCAS. Mode C at 1400ft is going to give anything below 2500ft Resolution advisory's.

So actually they will have been stopped giving the current profiles used with unrestricted decent they will have to step it and keep them higher to a lot nearer in. Something which if they had done anyway they wouldn't have the current issues.

And quite how they are going to manage when the radar is out is anyone's guess as the procedures will still take them outside controlled airspace at 1500ft.

Similar to Inverness its going to stop them trying to move you out of certain bits of airspace which they currently try to with inbounds.

[ChickenHouse]

As I was unsure about the XPDR settings in Europe I just looked up the German AOPA and they state in classes C, D, TMZ, night and flights above 5000 MSL/3500AGL even VFR Mode-S is mandatory. Is the UK so different and wasn't there something with SERA and unified airspace?

I also spent time to read on RMZ and am confused. When looking at EASA settings I see a mandatory lock in to the frequency and listen, but when I see at the AIPs I find "initial call mandatory", which is not in the original frame. Am I wrong or the local people sattling rules on top of otherwise unified regulations are just sabotaging the unified approach?

I know in the US is is quite easy and may of my old friends sell their pulled Mode A/C equipment to there, but within Europe I am still amazed to see all that "flexibility" ... I guess I have to take some theory lessons b4 flying there again.

[mad_jock]

Is the UK so different and wasn't there something with SERA and unified airspace?

Well there is 10 pages of differences in the enroute manual of Jepp's and that's IFR only. If they would put in the VFR differences as well I suspect it would be double that.

At work we won't let none UK pilots go to the UK if they have to operate in Class G.

[Jan Olieslagers]

There is nothing in theory to stop it going in.

Well, where/when I learned to fly a microlight I was taught controlled airspace is closed to us, but that may be country-dependent.

And of course, as you said, a controller can always refuse entry and there is little to do against it, certainly not during the flight. At best one one could question the refusal afterwards, but what good could come of that?

Is the UK so different

Why yes, that's why I will periodically grin at "just one more UK oddity" ...

wasn't there something with SERA and unified airspace

Yes, but at first it doesn't change much in practice - countries are at liberty to file exceptions and most have done so, to various extents. The one advantage of SERA is that the exceptions become exceptions, I reckon they are supposed to disappear over time.

[ChickenHouse]

Yes, but at first it doesn't change much in practice - countries are at liberty to file exceptions and most have done so, to various extents. The one advantage of SERA is that the exceptions become exceptions, I reckon they are supposed to disappear over time.

Nothing is so persistent as an outdated politically justified system ... I keep my fingers crossed these exceptions do not qualify as provisional arrangement as they tend to be of same stickiness ...

[patowalker]

Jan,

Not all countries exclude microlights from Class D. If they did, UK microlighters would not be able to use Le Touquet as a port of entry to France.

[daxwax]

The thing that makes this particularly tricky is the triangle of Class A from 2500'+ just north of Chelmsford. Is that little piece of sky really required to be Class A down to that level? If that was removed or at least started from 3500'+ it would at least in part mitigate against the choke point for those trying to get to or from the East Anglia coast from the likes of Stapleford.
Anyone know why that triangle goes down to 2500'?
Thanks

[Jan Olieslagers]

Not all countries exclude microlights from Class D.

Thank you.

If they did, UK microlighters would not be able to use Le Touquet as a port of entry to France.

Wasn't that the reason they are so omnipresent at Calais LFAC? ;)

[ak7274]

LFAC is also Class D.
I would hazard a guess that the reason for Calais, is because it is the shortest water crossing combined with a much cheaper landing fee and not because of Class of Airspace.

[patowalker]

It was Class D, but not anymore.

LFFA-B5523/14
A) LFAC CALAIS DUNKERQUE
B) 2014 Nov 03 00:00 C) PERM
E) CALAIS CTR DEACTIVATED :
AIRSPACE RE-CLASSIFIED TO G, AD CONTROL NOT PROVIDED

[Genghis the Engineer]

Jock, are you saying (or are you saying someone is saying) my non transponder equipped three-axis microlight would be allowed into class D in the UK? Always?

I regularly fly non transponder equipped microlights around UK airspace (actually mostly flexwings at present, as 1/10th of a Rollason Condor seems quite microlighty enough without needing to specifically fill up the 3-axis microlight column of my logbook, and as it happens, that has a functioning transponder).

I can't recall ever being refused entry to class D; I've occasionally been asked to modify my routing, which is fair enough if I'm using the airspace around a reasonably major airport. I probably do get asked to modify my routing a bit more often and make more position reports when I am not squawking, but presumably that's simply because the controller has less confidence about where exactly I am.

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

Thank you, GtE, this only confirms the UK is really a different place (though perhaps less single in this respect than in some others) - but in this case that is all to the good.

Perhaps a warning is in place: foreign microlighters flying into Belgium, keep OUT of class D! And that includes the CTR's and TMA's of all commercial airports, and all military bases when active.

[ak7274]

Patowalker you are quite right. Maybe I should have a trifle more accurate. The propensity of Microlights up until 3 months ago was more likely to be because of the cost and shorter distance to Calais even though it was Class D rather than the Class D being the reason they didn't use LFAT.
I would assume they will continue to use LFAC for the same reasons.

[patowalker]

ak7274 I quite agree and only mentioned L2K because Calais lost its Class D and Abbeville, the other favourite of UK microlighters, is in Class G.

Calais is training 3 bilingual AFISOs and has promised an improved service at the restaurant, so I hope it will remain popular with UK pilots.

[ak7274]

It will remain popular with me and I don't fly Microlights. I still aren't happy with Southend Airspace even with all the reassurances though.

[Red Four]

Daxwax siad: The thing that makes this particularly tricky is the triangle of Class A from 2500'+ just north of Chelmsford. Is that little piece of sky really required to be Class A down to that level? If that was removed or at least started from 3500'+ it would at least in part mitigate against the choke point for those trying to get to or from the East Anglia coast from the likes of Stapleford.
Anyone know why that triangle goes down to 2500'?

I agree that triangle raised to 3500ft would make life for GA much easier. From what I have I have seen that piece of airspace is not required by Essex Radar/NATS/Stansted. It was probably originally in place to provide protection for SID climbs towards Clacton or Detling with OEI. In my opinion, GA should be lobbying Stansted to rescind that airspace or continue to justify it.

[soaringhigh650]

Flaming ridiculous. Jumped up bunch of wassernames.So pick up the damn radio and let them know want route you want!

It's people who refuse to talk which they cannot accept.

[ak7274]

Hmmmmm.
Pick up a radio and talk to them.
I do. The point is not that I should "pick up a radio" isn't even close to my point at all.
I have never had a problem talking to Southend and have often repositioned myself at their request.
The point I and many others are trying to make is that the Airspace is convoluted, disproportionate and probably not neccessary. The number of small Airfields in that area are going to find things difficult due to being in controlled airspace as soon as they are off the ground.Non radio Aircraft will be forced into a narrow choke point with a low ceiling. Many other factors may be a problem too.
Have you ever thought of looking at the consultation objections?
If one intends to be rude then one really should engage the damn brain before the mouth.

[Jan Olieslagers]

ak7424: this "fellow" has repeatedly read poorly, if at all, and written rudely, or worse. Best to ignore, nothing useful will come of it anyway, however well you may mean. Or much should have changed, which we can and should always hope for.

[ak7274]

You're quite right Jan and I apologise for getting a little hot under the collar about something I am quite passionate about.
Thank you for putting me right.