Logging Shared P1/PIC Time in Log Book

[kevkdg]

Hi,


I'm not asking about the rights or wrongs of changing PIC halfway through a single leg flight in a single crew SEP, but rather how you would reflect this in the log book.

My log book has a column for "Departure time" and "Arrival time" and columns for "In Command" and "Dual / P2".

If Take Off is at 09:00 and Landing at 11:00 and the flight time PIC/P1 is shared 50/50 with a formal handover (fully dual controlled aircraft), does each pilot book as follows:

Option 1:

Pilot "A" Departure Time 09:00 Arrival Time 10:00 (1 hour in the "in Command" column - with appropriate comments)
and
Pilot "B" Departure Time 10:00 Arrival Time 11:00 (1 hour in the "in Command" column - with appropriate comments)

OR

Option 2:

Pilot "A" Departure Time 09:00 Arrival Time 11:00 (BUT only 1 hour in the "in Command" column - with appropriate comments)
and
Pilot "B" Departure Time 09:00 Arrival Time 11:00 (BUT only 1 hour in the "in Command" column - with appropriate comments)

I understand that nothing can be booked as P2 in either option for a single crew SEP in this scenario.

The reason I ask is due to the log book column names being Departure Time and Arrival Time.

Regards

Kevin

[Mach Jump]

Hi Kevin.

Option 2 would be the correct way to log the time.


MJ:ok:

[kevkdg]

Cheers


But oh bugger.... I have logged 20 or so shared PIC flights...

BUT looking back in my log book I entered them using Option 1, and in the "comments" kept a track of the Take off and Landing Time, as I seem to recall I wanted the start and end times in the "departure" and "arrival" columns to tally with my "in Command" column entry. However, I can now see this was probably illogical.

Now, do I get out the Tip-Ex and amend those entries.... or just set off on the right track going forward.. The OCD in me is reaching for the Tip Ex.

I have never logged a leg of a flight where I simply did not touch the controls. I have a friend in my syndicate who logs all his passenger time as P2.


I was recently a passenger in a Ximango Motor Glider flight, and although flew it in the cruise for some time would not dream of logging it as P1/PIC simply because I doubt I would have been insured as PIC.

[Mach Jump]

If what you did was made clear in the 'Remarks', and you only logged the hours to which you were entitled, I wouldn't mess up your logbook for the sake of 'administrative correctness' Just carry on with the correct method of recording.


MJ:ok:

[kevkdg]

Thanks MJ for the replies

[bingofuel]

What name is going into the tech log and who is signing for the aircraft as commander?

[piperarcher]

When I was flying with someone else and sharing as P1, I went for option 1. Largely because it matched the aircraft techlog and any semi-automated system that calculates times based on departure or arrival times would produce different numbers. I don't think either is illegal, but if you are in a syndicate, I guess all group members need to be aligned and using the same option

[PA28181]

Forget your option 1 it will not reflect the true flight times

Op 2 is the proper, the crucial thing is you only log your P1 time and the date it occurred.

It is acceptable to make a number of flights in a day (If from same airfield and not landing away as if a FI just bashing the circuit all day) and just log the total P1 time in the appropriate column.

[kevkdg]

I have been logging as per Option 1, but putting the actual take off and landing times in the remarks column. At least my "In Command" time logged is accurate, which it is under either Option 1 or 2.

[PA28181]

The fact you didn't land at 10:00 anywhere is something that needs sorting......assuming that's a true scenario. Example log book shows landing at Sandown 10:00 DD/MM/YYYY but no actual record of it exists, it could be interpreted as false entry? sounds harsh but may be true I don't know.

[kevkdg]

I agree, so going forward I will use Option 2.


Was thinking of amended existing entries, but as my remarks column for each entry records the take off and landing times, it should be easily cross referenced if ever anyone bothered, which I can't see they would.

[Camargue]

why log take off and landing times??

no need for any remarks, just log the time you were P1

[PA28181]

why log take off and landing times??

Well one very good reason is to differentiate night flying from day..................it helps when working out which column to put it in.

[cavortingcheetah]

But, by the same logic that allows you to split a single crew flight into two pilots taking credit for the flight, why don't you each just log the whole thing as P1?

[PA28181]

But, by the same logic that allows you to split a single crew flight into two pilots taking credit for the flight, why don't you each just log the whole thing as P1?

So each does 1/2 hr from a 1 hour flight and each logs 1 hour P1. Making it a two hour flight.

Is that what you are really saying?

[worrab]

why log take off and landing times??

It's one of the parts of your logbook which is actually auditable. There has been at least one court case where the t/o and ldg figures were found not to match and a successful prosecution resulted.

[PA28181]

I agree with that upto a point. This an activity which like no other has a huge paper/audit trail, except when landing/taking off from farmers fields or your own strip where you are the only guardian of the truth in your personal and aircraft log books......

[Camargue]

Worrab,

Interesting point

I've never logged them in 26 years and for most GA that must really be splitting hairs!

And I agree with post above, a significant amount of flying I done in the past will have virtually no audit trail at all

[PA28181]

Purely academic. Do you have a night rating?

[Camargue]

I don't. I guess night flying makes a difference but never really thought about it.

I've just never logged take off/landing times and no one has ever commented on it.

[India Four Two]

My Canadian Log Book, which according to the title page, meets TC requirements, doesn't have columns for takeoff and landing times!

I wouldn't mess up your logbook for the sake of 'administrative correctness'

I agree. My log book is messy enough already.

[tmmorris]

Isn't every aircraft required to have a tech log? And every airfield a movements book? Even permit / farm strips?

So couldn't that provide the audit trail?

[PA28181]

Page 120 of CAP 804 gives the specific requirements including time of depart & arrive.

Does a farm strip used only by the owner, qualify as an airfield, and require a movement log?

[worrab]

There are all sorts of trails which should marry - for example, fuel, fees, engineering logs, movement logs, LARS/ATC strips.

IIRC times for take-off and landing should be recorded, but I doubt anyone would bother too much if they weren't. OTOH if you were marginal for currency and/or hours for revalidation and then had a serious accident, the times may take on an altogether different importance.

[BillieBob]

I've just never logged take off/landing times and no one has ever commented on it.There is no legal requirement in the UK to log take-off and landing times. Although they appear in the AMC to FCL.050 (which is copied into CAP 804) this has no legal standing as the responsibility for determining the form and manner in which flight time is recorded is delegated to the competent authority (i.e. ANO Art 79). Night flying makes no difference - I have never entered take-off or landing times in any log book, simply entering the flight time in the day or night column, or sometimes a bit in each.

[ChickenHouse]

Could somebody please enlighten me, I am lost.

I was under the impression that PIC is named before T/O and stays PIC, independent of who is taking when control. Everything else would break my thinking of ICAO settings, sorry to push the issue.

I also remember when preparing for FAA IR that you had to present evidence for a certain number of hours x-country, where the definition is given by direct line between departure and destination in extend of (I think it was) 50 nauticals. I had some discussion with the FI and got confirmed that local flights and real flight distance are irrelevant, so it is important for such case to log according to rules.

From all this I would log flight departure and arrival plus put anything like you have control in remarks, if of any importance (something like original opt 2). Did we not have a similar discussion on P2 logged hours lately?

[JAKL]

What about currency and revalidation?
If your log book only show three take offs and no landings in the preceding 90 days, you could not legally take a passenger ( the pilot claiming the latter portion of the flight).
For revalidation you must show 12 take offs and landings.
Can you use flights logged in either method?

[Duchess_Driver]

In my logbook all times are entered UTC - which meant for some quizzical looks from some when looking at night flying in California at 11:00 with 4 hours in the flight conditions "Night" column.

I often log flights as P1 with no take-off or landing recorded - as if I am not the handling pilot I was not the manipulator of the controls. It would only raise itself as problematic when you're scratching minutes to revalidate by experience. Perhaps one should consider revalidation by test? Cheaper and easier.

Just my €0.02

DD

[Mach Jump]

What about currency and revalidation?

Currency and revalidation are unaffected.

You only count the time you were PIC, and the takeoffs or landings that you actually did as PIC.

As DD says above, As an instructor, there may be some flights where you do neither the takeoff, or the landing.


MJ:ok:

[YODI]

One more question, can you fly right seat as a PPL, some one once told me you couldn't?

[PA28181]

Yes, without getting into the endless drivel about this question.

[bingofuel]

On a SPA the aircraft commander logs P1. As the commander he has responsibility for the pre flight, flight and post flight actions as specified in the ANO. How, therefore, can the commander of a SPA change during the flight?

[YODI]

Thanks PA28181 That'll do me.

[PA28181]

How, therefore, can the commander of a SPA change during the flight?

This has been done to death. Easy, If there are are two pilots on board both current and qualified on type and can safely reach all controls, they CAN decide who is P1 at ANY time they choose. And must log each portion of the flight they did.

Dont make it complicated.

[cavortingcheetah]

(If there are are two pilots on board both current and qualified on type and can safely reach all controls, they CAN decide who is P1 at ANY time they choose. And must log each portion of the flight they did.
Don't make it complicated.)

They could equally well decide to share the flying in which case they'd be joint P1s. They can't be P1 or P2 on such an aircraft. Why not just log the the total time each with a suitable encoded comment in the remarks column and take it from there. The object is hours I presume and what's the worst that could happen? A division of the total time spent flying together into two parts, based on the remarks column, if anyone ever bothered to pick upon it.
I know that flight schools often work time on the Hobbs but isn't flight time actually taken on the first movement of the aircraft until the final application of brakes? Take off and landing times are for flight logs not log book logging?

[S-Works]

They can't be joint P1s and for them both to log the time as such would be creating fraudulent entities and is such subject to prosecution. Current rate is a thousand pounds a line for fraudulent entries in fines......

[ChickenHouse]

This has been done to death. Easy, If there are are two pilots on board both current and qualified on type and can safely reach all controls, they CAN decide who is P1 at ANY time they choose. And must log each portion of the flight they did.

Dont make it complicated.

No, they can not legally, at least to my knowledge - which was the question wether I am on track. There are no split responsibilities in flight, for good reason. And as reminder, we are talking PIC, not "you have control".

[cavortingcheetah]

Hmmm.....perhaps I was brought up in an ancient age where time was less important but that what you did with it was of greater value.
At £1g per line and somewhere around £180 an hour for wet hire, you just need to make it a long cross country to be in profit.

[PA28181]

They could equally well decide to share the flying in which case they'd be joint P1s

Where on earth do you get these "Facts" from????????????????


No, they can not legally, at least to my knowledge

Your knowledge is wrong................BUT may be correct in Nairobi?

[FullWings]

No, they can not legally, at least to my knowledge...
In the commercial world you can, in our OM(A) we have specific examples like incapacitation, differing qualifications for LVOs, etc.

I can log P1 time even when I’m asleep in the bunk (as I’m still the captain) but can handover command to someone else if it’s required, at which point I can't. It might be something like running out of hours before the end of the flight due to different previous duties, which I have actually had to do.

It’s harder to think of specific examples as to why you’d need to do this in a light aircraft but I suppose one might be if you had taken off on a nice day but the weather deteriorated, you had to do an IMC recovery and only one of you was instrument qualified. Might make sense to make them P1 at that point?

AFAIK there is no prohibition for apportioning P1 time amongst different people during the flight under CAA/EASA regulations. Happy to be proved wrong (with references!)

[S-Works]

I have no idea why this is made so complicated all the time.

Under EASA, you can't have two people logging P1 on a flight. The only time two people will log time is if it's Instructional time.

There is nothing stopping two pilots splitting the command of a flight between them. There has to be a clear demarcation where the first pilot hands over command to second and the second acknowledges they have the responsibility for the flight.

I there is no requirement to log take off and landings and it does not matter if you do log them whether they match or not.

The earlier example made about a flight taking off with one person as P1 and then making an IMC recovery with another pilot is a good example of where command can be transferred.

I really don't understand what the obsession of trying to log every minute of time possible is. People would agonise far less if you just fly a leg each rather than trying to finagle a few extra minutes for the log book......

[cavortingcheetah]

'Facts'?
Fact is, FACT is Cape Town but why let that stand in the way of a good story.

[ChickenHouse]

'Facts'?
Fact is, FACT is Cape Town but why let that stand in the way of a good story.
I have my opinion, don't confuse me by facts?

[robin]

I really don't understand what the obsession of trying to log every minute of time possible is. People would agonise far less if you just fly a leg each rather than trying to finagle a few extra minutes for the log book......

Spot on

It's likely to be people who are either hours building or are close to not making the 6 hours/12 hours that would do this. That and those who are struggling with funds.

It annoys me when pilots have an eye on the Hobbs meter rather than fly the aircraft properly.

[Level Attitude]

you had to do an IMC recovery and only one of you was instrument qualified. Might make sense to make them P1 at that point?Even if pre-agreed on the ground, once in flight the Pilot in Command (PIC) cannot be forced to relinquish command, and can only choose to do so if his, suitably qualified, passenger actually agrees, at the time, to accept command - no one can make them accept this responsibility.

I am not against the principle of splitting PIC time in an SEP flight, but I do think people take too cavalier an attitude to what being in command entails.

Before flight the PIC is required to ensure that the whole flight can be conducted safely - I don't think that "If we hit IMC I will give up command and let my passenger sort it out" meets this requirement.

[PA28181]

I think you are being a bit pedantic, taking the words "Make them P1" out of context. I fully understand what was meant by that, and no-one has yet suggested at any time an element of "making" someone take "Command".

Yet again making it complicated for no reason.

[Level Attitude]

I think you are being a bit pedantic, taking the words "Make them P1" out of context. I fully understand what was meant by that, and no-one has yet suggested at any time an element of "making" someone take "Command".

Yet again making it complicated for no reason.No, not making it complicated - being pedantic on purpose to emphasise my point.

I have seen, and heard of, too many pilots who flew way beyond their personal comfort level simply because their passenger had more flying qualifications or experience than they did; "knowing"/"expecting" that should things get too hairy for them their passenger would take over.

That, to me, is not being in command - it is being dangerously foolish.
(Pressonitis due to the assumption that a Pax is more capable than the crew)

[PA28181]

Kind off makes any reference to "Safety Pilots" who do accompany pilots who prefer having someone more confident along for the ride, that they are all foolish people rather than sensible ones who know their limitations and use a perfectly acceptable means of ensuring thir flight is less stressfull.

[Level Attitude]

To feel more confident it is a really good idea for a pilot to fly with a passenger who has much more flying experience than they do in order to receive advice, suggestions or guidance. However, to be PIC means they can accept, or ignore, any such advice as they, and only they, wish and are perfectly entitled to tell their passenger to shut up to let them concentrate on flying.

A good example of where this would be helpful is a PPL holder's first cross-channel flight in good visibility.

If a flight only goes ahead because the passenger has said "don't worry, if the conditions prove too much for you I can take over as PIC" then I do not think the flight should have gone ahead in the first place.

Worse would be the case (such as a Group Check Flight) where the passenger says "You are PIC but I will take over if I don't like what you are doing".
How can anyone be In Command if they cannot make the decision as to who should fly the aircraft?

Apart from a Safety Pilot required to be carried due to the PIC's Medical limitation; the term "Safety Pilot" should not be used as it infers the person so called has a responsibility for the flight that they do not actually have and could cause the PIC to change their decision making process or, worse, stop making decisions.