How much does your private flying cost you?

[300hrWannaB]

To be fair, you should reference the number of hours you fly.
There are potential advantages from group ownership, ie availability, but costs rack up if you don't fly much.
I guess I'm only doing 10 hrs a year due to cost.

[9 lives]

I own a C 150, and a Teal flying boat (so no rental costs), capital investment, which I should recover one day. I own the runway and hangar (so no storage costs), more capital investment to recover one day.

I maintain the property all myself, so some labour cost there, let's say 2 hours a week for the "flying" portion of the property.

I do my own maintenance on both, so let's say 25 hours per year on each.

So, 154 hours a year of my time x $30/hr = $4620 of my time.

Insurance for both together = $2200

I fly each 50+ hours a year

Consumables and reserves $15 per hour for each = $1500

Gas and oil $50/hour for the 150, $100/hour for the Teal = $2500 + $5000

So, the 150 = $148.20 per hour, and the Teal $198.20 per hour.

So, it would be cheaper to rent, but I like having each at my sole disposal, and at home.

My friend in Norway priced out his 182 amphibian, and came up with very close to 500 Euros per hour, just for reference.

[AdamFrisch]

A lot. But never too much.

[ChickenHouse]

Just look it up in my TCO XLS, C172 for 130h/a:

Operational costs per hour 85.96£
Total costs per hour 121.02£
Still in invest depreciation 30,075.19£
(biggest chunks - original purchase, GNS430, engine, interior refit, SID)

[JPlumridge]

Current costs for my flying

1/4 share - £2000
Monthly - £55
Flying - £15-24/hr including £5/hr engine fund

Probably some of the cheapest flying around

[A and C]

The same as Adam !

[pulse1]

Normally about £65 per hour for 30 hours in a Condor but don't want to think about it this year because we have just fitted a new engine:{

[robin]

How much does your private flying cost you?

My marriage......:ok:

[tmmorris]

I guess I'm lucky, my wife never throws the cost in my face.

My mother, on the other hand...

[PA28181]

With landing fees about £10,000 for the last year to-date, a little bit more as I usually only do about 50/yr, but racked up 60 last year.

[ChickenHouse]

My marriage......

How'd you succeed with this, is there a recipe for it, because I failed to get this result from flying, but am very interested in?

[ShyTorque]

The trick is to get the aircraft owner to employ you to fly his aircraft, and to pick up the tab. :)

[PA28181]

The trick is to get the aircraft owner to employ you to fly his aircraft, and to pick up the tab. Now there's a lovely grey area for flying without a CPL. Just don't let those who matter know. You can fly the MD around all day at his expense so long as your not specifically employed to do it (Assuming ordinary PPL in UK)

[ShyTorque]

Now there's a lovely grey area for flying without a CPL. Just don't let those who matter know. You can fly the MD around all day at his expense so long as your not specifically employed to do it (Assuming ordinary PPL in UK)

Yes, don't do it on a PPL. But then, I have been legally doing just that for quite some years without a CPL.

[robin]

Quote:
My marriage......
How'd you succeed with this, is there a recipe for it, because I failed to get this result from flying, but am very interested in?

All due to Nat West Bank.

They took money from the wrong account and the ex saw (some of) my spend on the bank statement. There was a hell of a lot more she never saw!!

Will use that technique again for the future ex-Mrs Robin if necessary

[Johnm]

I don't know and I don't want to know!!!:eek:

[150 Driver]

Including insurance, maintenance (average year), hangarage, landing fees and fuel my 150 cost me around £150 per hour over the last 12 months. That covers 60 hours flying. Per hour would drop if I flew more.

Plane itself has a capital cost of £11,000 which if I sold tomorrow I would expect to get back.

The big hidden cost is maintenance which you never know about. Take engines as an example, a couple of years ago mine was only 1200 hours since zero timed but the alternator drive shaft broke, metal in the oil, engine rebuild and £Lots worse off.

I'm sure I could cut costs (e.g. storing outside not hangaring would save £1,800 or £30 per flying hour), but ...

[PA28181]

alternator drive shaft broke Would that not be the actual crankshaft that drives the alternator via a belt? If so, a wrecked engine I would think?

[150 Driver]

No, on a C150 it is direct drive, no belts

[PA28181]

Continental engine?

Just looked at the continental SB for 150 alternators. Flew one way way back at Biggin and obviously never looked hard enough.

[150 Driver]

Yes, Continental. Mine's actually a Rolls Royce but made under licence from Continental, I believe for the Reims model

[Rod1]

I own my own aircraft (UK) and budget £4300 all in for 70h.

Rod1

[Maoraigh1]

£4908 for 71.8 tach hours as a Group of 6 member, in a Jodel DR1050, including monthly, hour, fuel, but not landing fees. Share is now £2200 - I bought for 1600 just over 25 years ago. The Group finances are very good.

[India Four Two]

My last 15 hours averaged out at about $800 per hour, but that's what happens when you mix flights behind 27 litre V-12s (or in front of DH Goblins) with more mundane flights in Yaks, C172s, Warriors and Stearmans.

[sharpend]

£12,000 a year all in for sole ownership of a SA Bulldog. That includes fuel, maintenance, hangarage, valeting, landings, insurance, club fees, doc & pubs. However, with refurbishment, that has climbed to £57,000 last year. Yes really!

But worth it!

[sharpend]

Rod1, I would be interested to see how you get such a low figure. Does that include all that I pay for in my £12,000?

[mikehallam]

Let's see what the LAA/BMAA route costs in southern England on a usual modest 40 hrs p.a.
(Most years lately it's more like 50, especially with last year's good Summer wx, peak 60 hrs.)

Rans S6-116 with 80 hp Rotax flat four 4-stroke engine.
Excluding initial purchase price as likely to remain much the same and hangarage as that is a major variable to add on.

Fuel (MoGas and using the higher last years of £1.30 per litre figures rather than the current dip in cost).
Plus 3rd Party Ins, Inspector's & LAA Permit fees, oil & consumable parts - but no engine sinking fund -

All comes to £30=00 per hour.

Grass strip with locked Hangarage here would double that !

mike hallam

[Rod1]

Insurance £660 (huge reduction from recent years)

Hangarage PA £1000

Maintenance PA £420 (Average over last 8 permits inc paperwork etc)

Fuel 1500 (for 70 hours)

Total 3580

Rest is landing fees, occasional Avgas etc etc.

valeting £0 DIY after every flight

club fees £0 - do not need to be a member so do not count this as an aircraft cost.

doc & pubs £0 all on line.


Rod1

[ChickenHouse]

@Rod: so if I read correct, these are operational costs only and not total costs?

[Rod1]

Operational costs and total costs definitions vary from person to person. My Son is studying Aerospace Eng at Uni. He is paying about £9000 a year for his tuition and spends about 1000h studying. I wanted to learn about aircraft, built one and now maintain it. I consider it a useful learning exercise so do not consider my time as an expense.

The only other costs would be interest on the capital and depreciation. The aircraft is worth roughly what it cost so depreciation is negligible. Interest would be running at about £1k pa.

Rod1

[9 lives]

I just spent four miserable hours on the tractor, clearing the crusty snow off my runway, so that has to factor into the cost of flying. Perhaps it would be better if I paid myself from a hefty landing and parking fee I demanded of myself!

[PENNINE BOY]

Out PA28 did 280 hrs last year.

Hangarage £1500
Insurance £2200
Annual £1000
Plugs,Oil etc £500

Fuel.£15120

£72.00 hour.

P.B.

[Curlytips]

Looks as if maintenance must be under - estimated. With 280 hours you must surely have a 50, 50, 150, 50, and 50 hour check as well as the annual - and at £1000 that looks really cheap too.:confused:

[Mark 1]

For an RV-4 hangared at a towered airport in the SF Bay area and 24 hour availability and about 100 hrs/year:

Hangarage (shared) - $4500 p.a.
Insurance - $1000 p.a.
Fuel - $4000 p.a.
Oil/consumables ~ $500

I've also upgraded the propeller, brakes, radio and ignition system and several other non-recurring costs, these are really capital costs, but maybe allow $1000 for ad-hoc stuff.

Annual inspection was free (thanks Harry)

So about $100 per tacho hour avarage.

[PENNINE BOY]

Maintainance done by myself, 50hr check usually oil and filter and swop plugs around.
Air filter elements around £20 all included in the £500 for oil and bits. Service parts for the PA28 are reasonable.

P.B.

[sharpend]

Here are mine. Obviously a huge difference between a modern LSA on a permit and a vintage Bulldog on a C of A.

Cost per month. Does not include refurbishment costs.

Equipment, Skydemon, Charts & Books 8.67
CAA/DHSL fees incl ARC 5.00
Maintenance 350.00
Fuel 219.76
Insurance 80.51
Hangerage @ EGBT 270.00
landings 10.53
Contingency & misc 50.00
Fatigue meter & calculations 61.75
Valetting 31.83
flying tests 3.13
Club fees & Misc 3.33
Fuel cost/litre 1.70
Fuel consumption/hr 42.01
Hrs flown/month 2.77
Total cost per month 1093.68

[Silvaire1]

I have a couple of planes in a hangar, in the US. Keeping them airworthy, in the hangar, insured and ready to go ends up costing about $1000 US per month, based on experience over 10 years. Then every hour I fly costs the price of fuel above that base. That's as far as I'm interested in analyzing it... Its not a spreadsheet, its what I like to do.

I don't care what number results when you divide the annual total by the number of hours flown, and in fact I've never done it. I don't know how many hours I've flown in the last year either!

[Rod1]

sharpend it is cleared by the LAA under CS-VLA not LSA (there are some important differences from a flying POV). Dyn Aero MCR01.

Rod1

[maxred]

That's as far as I'm interested in analyzing it... Its not a spreadsheet, its what I like to do.

There are so many variables in this game, that it is an academic exercise in many ways. One thing I have found though, that in general, people often way underestimate the true and actual costs.

Reason, as always, particularly in aviation, the truth often hurts:ouch:

For instance, my Bonanza, 29k per annum, based on 90 hours flying per year. That does not include engine/avionics fund. That is an all in cost.....

[anderow]

There are so many variables in this game, that it is an academic exercise in many ways. One thing I have found though, that in general, people often way underestimate the true and actual costs.

Reason, as always, particularly in aviation, the truth often hurts

For instance, my Bonanza, 29k per annum, based on 90 hours flying per year. That does not include engine/avionics fund. That is an all in cost.....

People also often don't seem to factor in the cost of their time in keeping the aircraft airworthy, eg paperwork, phone calls, late nights at the airfield etc.

I was a little surprised when I looked into the ownership costs of a twinstar; that made my eyes water a little and the formula seems pretty straightforwad to me...as planes get bigger, more complex (or faster), they cost more to run and maintain, exponentially!!! (notwithstanding the increased initial purchase price).

[Curlytips]

On Alderney last year, we got into conversation with a sailor and his wife who'd taken several days to get there from Bristol. We started comparing costs - marina, maintenance etc. He told me that mariners have a standard answer when asked "how much does it cost" - apparently the answer is "how much can you afford". Same difference? :bored:

[sapperkenno]

*cough* PPL FI here, about 500 hours over the last year, in a variety of types, and paid to do it. :} So it doesn't cost me that much, but did to get myself into this position!

[shortstripper]

23 hours in a Piper L4 Cub last year came to around £1250 including subs. I haven't included the share cost as I could get that back in an instant and the value is increasing rather than depreciating it seems.

SS

[thing]

I budget £300 a month for rental costs, not counting landing fees, maps, Skydemon subs, pub lunches and all the other guff that goes with flying. I average around 70 hrs per year P1 on this and probably do around 120 hrs including RH seat. I do have a lot of non pilot friends who like to fly who cost share. This makes a massive difference, I very rarely fly on my own unless it's a servicing flight. In fact more often than not I'll stick someone in the RH seat if it's a servicing flight just for someone to talk to.

[x933]

I did 50hrs in my Europa before leaving the syndicate. Total cost over 2 years excluding landing, handling, club membership, LAA membership but including hangarage, maintenance, insurance, fuel, oil, etc was £60/hr wet. Factor in all the other costs and it was probably closer to £70/hr.

What was it *worth* - priceless. Miss that aeroplane.

[ChampChump]

Permit aircraft, hangarage of just under £2000 p.a., fuel, insurance, Permit, plus maintenance and sundries estimated fairly generously at £500, gives something in the region of £47 p.h for last year's flying.

Fuel prices at today's prices would reduce this to about £41.

Not Rotax money, but my little Continental sounds so much nicer...

[150 Driver]

What this brings home is the (un)economics of the industry.

If as an aircraft owner you were tempted to hire out, you are (I believe) restricted to CofA types and therefore most if not all of the lower cost examples above need to be ignored.

So, take the costs I've declared above for what is a typical trainer/hire aircraft. They were £150 per hour. Knock out the hangarage and it drops to £120 per hour. I know Fuel is more expensive than market rate at home base, but maintenance I pay is I believe in line with market.

However, if hiring then there would need to be a CAMO involved which as private owners we don't need, and I'm guessing that even as a low hours PPL my insurance is going to be lower than an aircraft available for hire. Although the full value of maintenance will be seen (50 hours will be 50 hours flying not 6 month time elapsing) you would expect the maintenance costs to go up-hired planes I'm guessing don't get respected as well as owned ones. Furthermore as a hired plane engines will need changing on calendar time irrespective of hours and compressions.

So overall, even if the swings and roundabouts cost the same as I'm paying (which seems a bit optimistic), how does anyone expect to make money given that a wet hire rate for a C150/152 is iro £125ish per hour ?

[ChickenHouse]

So overall, even if the swings and roundabouts cost the same as I'm paying (which seems a bit optimistic), how does anyone expect to make money given that a wet hire rate for a C150/152 is iro £125ish per hour ?

Truth is, almost nobody can make money with this business. A sustainable commercial operations in that sector is long gone and what we do since many decades is living from the value our grandfathers built, by eating it up.