Gliding Question (Mary Meagher)?

[Ellie Vater]

I am a fixed wing instructor, who is on the verge of packing it all in due to disillusionment on a large scale, which I won't go into on this post.

I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).

A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:

1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option

2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor

3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons

4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding

5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!

Thanks for reading

[Ridger]

Hi Ellie,

I do both so hopefully you will enjoy gliding! Each flight is unique and the challenge never dies! I'm not in the same league as the legendary Mary but I hope my answers below will suffice in the meantime!

1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option: My own personal view is that power PFL and glider field landings are apples and oranges; different initatiing reasons, techniques and workloads. Gliding will probably polish your field selection skills and make you more comfortable with the concept of landing out.

2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor: Definitely admit to it - you'll get paired with the correctly rated instructor and you can just get on with the differences training. The majority of my gliding colleagues fly power too.

3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons: Learning generally cheaper - the initial trial lesson tends to include a bung towards insurance. Expect £20-£30 for a tow to 2000' / £7-£10 for a winch launch to 1200'. Annual memberships varies from £200 to £500. Budget a grand and you'll be bomb proof.

4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding: Understanding Gliding by Derek Piggot is the classic text and still worth a read. The BGA website has some good suggestions.

5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..! It is pretty rare to end up in the hedge and is normally the result of pulling the wrong lever or not putting the right lever away. Gliders have stunning airbrakes and respond well to sideslipping in an overshoot scenario. In an undershoot scenario closing the brakes has a dramatic effect in lift restoration. The key skill is anticipating windshear but it's all pretty straightforward.

Where abouts are you based? Most clubs are pretty good.

Go for it!

[RatherBeFlying]

Intros tend to be expensive. Club treasurers like them for revenue generation.

A five flight package is a good way to get acquainted with a club. Some clubs have personality issues; others are inefficient so that it's hard for students to get sufficient flights to progress. It's wise to get to know them a bit before signing up for annual and initiation fees.

You also want to find out how much opportunity, i.e. equipment, is available for licensed pilots to go cross country.

Find the clubs in your area and visit them all. Talk to the students and especially newly licensed pilots to find out how long they took to get licensed:E

[India Four Two]

EV,

Go for it - you'll have a lot of fun and you will learn a lot.

My opinion is that starting in a motorglider is the way to go, provided that it really performs like a glider with the engine off. Much better value for money and you will learn quicker - more landings per hour. Once you have learned how to land, then transition to a two-seat glider and learn aero-towing and/or winch launching.

Learning to aero-tow for most power pilots is a real eye-opener. The only one I taught who had no problem, had been a WWII test-pilot and had 10,000 hours!


PS Gliders have a yaw-string outside the canopy, which is much more sensitive than a slip ball. When I first started flying gliders, I was already a power-pilot. I was told "the yaw string moves the opposite way to a slip ball" which is true but didn't help me. What finally worked for me, was to look at the front, fixed end of the yaw string and treat it as if it was a slip ball i.e. push it back to the centre-line with the appropriate rudder pedal.

[cats_five]

I am a fixed wing instructor, who is on the verge of packing it all in due to disillusionment on a large scale, which I won't go into on this post.

I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).

A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:

1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option


I suspect you would start in a pure glider and maybe convert to a motor glider later. If you take up gliding you will learn all the usual stuff in the usual order, not jump straight to PFL.

2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor


You won't be able to hide it! However you do need to leave it behind to think like a glider pilot. No power to call on to get you out of trouble, and the performance of even a training glider is very different.

3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons


Don't look at the trial lesson prices, look at the costs for becoming a member. Some clubs offer very good value packages for new members.

4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding


Derek Piggott's books are often recommended.

5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!



We fly a very variable circuit which preserves height, as height is energy, which combined with very powerful airbrakes means a great deal can be done from an unfortunate position. For example on a windy day the base leg is much closer to the landing area then on a benign day. I say 'powerful airbrakes' - those on a Falke (common motorglider) are pretty poor compared to most gliders. A Grob 109 is a much better beast in that respect. Personally I find the long shallow approaches of a power plane quite scary.

Thanks for reading



Look at all the clubs it would be practical for you to fly at, visit them, see where you feel comfortable and where they fly when you can get to the club.

[mary meagher]

Hello Ellie - does that name imply we share the same gender?

With all THAT implies!! (we live longer, for one thing. And we are more cautious than the blokes...see auto insurance statistics for confirmation).

The answers to your questions depend very much on which continent you inhabit. For the UK there is a lot of information on the thread asking about Easter holiday gliding.

Couple of Canadian glider pilots have responded on this thread. Like the US, their aviation authority presumes to license gliding, while knowing absolutely bugger all about it. In the UK, we are all huddling under the umbrella of ESA, the European licensing arrangement, which is nevertheless allowing grandfather rights to all the free thinking arrangements of Britain. (British Gliding Association the cover org, no licenses as such; also we have up to now been allowed to fly gliders in cloud).

Please send me a personal message, for more information....and I really hope you live near Shenington!

Mary

PS. If you screw up the approach, it is better to enter the hedge at the end and not at the start....the slower the impact the less the damage.

PPS....Ridger, not always good to sideslip a glider....some will, some bite.
Know your type. The Pegasus bites, and I also think the ASW15 is unhappy to sideslip; also, can you imagine sideslipping a glider with a 22 meter wingspan?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Personally I find the long shallow approaches of a power plane quite scary.

As a power (long time ago glider) pilot, so do I! I don't do 'em like that, but a lot do. Something to do with playing at airline pilots (why?) and innappropriate (for a SEP) 3 degree glideslopes. This is one of mine at Liverpool in the Chippy:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/GZK6NK/chippy020res.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/GZK6NK/media/chippy020res.jpg.html)

In the Yak it'd be steeper!

[Prop swinger]

3) In BGA-land you're actually buying a trial membership with the first flight(s) included. If you use the membership by coming back it works out as good value. No landing fees or instructor fees but annual membership fees. Anywhere between £1,000 to £2,000 a year will get you plenty of flying in club machines but it can easily be done for less.

1) We teach circuits using the basic principles of height/distance/angle, effectively constant aspect, but inevitably students start flying by rote using local landmarks. A motorglider takes them away from the local area & tests that the student can still fly an effective circuit using the basic principles. So, good for testing but not required for learning. However, at a busy club the motorglider avoids having to wait in the launch queue between flights, so definitely worth having that option.

4) BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - BGA Manual - Gliding-Theory of Flight - (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.bgashop.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=3)
BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - The Soaring Pilots Manual - (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.bgashop.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=5)

5) You can land anywhere on the airfield & if it's long enough to winch from there's usually plenty of room.

[cats_five]

<snip>

PPS....Ridger, not always good to sideslip a glider....some will, some bite.
Know your type. The Pegasus bites, and I also think the ASW15 is unhappy to sideslip; also, can you imagine sideslipping a glider with a 22 meter wingspan?



Pegase is fine so long as it's without airbrakes - they create turbulence that in a side-slip blankets the tail so the nose drops. As to 22m span - I know a couple of folks that have side-slipped a 25m span. Obviously you need to be out of it far enough above the ground...

[cwatters]

1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option

Many clubs use motor gliders for cross country training but I recommend having a few trial flights in a regular glider to get the full experience. Perhaps aim for 2-3 winch launches and an aero tow to say 4000ft if it's not been a very good day for thermals.

2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor


Tell him.

3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons

No. Some Clubs sell "trial lessons" because their insurance won't allow them to carry "passengers" or sell "air experience" flights. They bring in money for the club. Lessons as a Club member will be much cheaper. You do need to commit time. You need to fly regularly to remain current and will be expected to help run the club. That may mean learning how to be a launch marshal or learning how to run the winch and perhaps doing that on a rota.

4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding

See previous recommendations.

5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!

You make sure you don't mess up. They have quite good air brakes and the ideal approach is made with half brake to give you options in both directions. The only time I messed up was when I landed a bit long on wet grass, had to put a wing tip on the ground to make it turn to avoid a ditch.

I got hooked after visiting a club near Zurich. I just walked into a club and asked if I could have a go. They were great and called up an instructor that lived locally. Next day I made a 4 hour flight in the mountains. Soared with birds, used thermal, ridge and wave lift, went to 13,000ft, flew past climbers half way up a sheer rock face, flew over a glacier and generally blew my mind.

[worrab]

Motor Gliders generally have a poorer glide ratio than a pure glider, but have the advantage that you can get flying on days when the club isn't operating. I suspect also that you'll get more circuits/hour in a TMG/SLMG than when being dragged.

[India Four Two]

Motor Gliders generally have a poorer glide ratio than a pure glider, but have the advantage that you can get flying on days when the club isn't operating. I suspect also that you'll get more circuits/hour in a TMG/SLMG than when being dragged.worrab, I agree with you. All of my motor glider instructing experience was in a Motorfalke, which was ugly to look at and had abysmal climb performance. However, its redeeming feature was that it flew like a glider with the engine off and so was perfect for teaching students how to fly glider circuits and land. It was also side-by-side, which is much better for teaching.

Students could book lessons and turn up - no ground handling team was required. A typical circuit would be:

- student apply full power, keep straight and takeoff
- accelerate in ground effect to climb speed (not much different from taking off behind a tow-plane)
- climb out via the cross-wind leg and establish downwind at circuit height.
- I would then shut the engine down while the student flew the aircraft
- the rest of the circuit and landing was like a normal glider, using spoilers to adjust the glide path
- once on the ground and while still moving, I would restart the engine and the student would apply full power and take off again

We could easily do six circuits an hour. It did wonders for a student's progress and continuity. Compare that with hanging around a drafty airfield all day and getting perhaps one or two flights, followed be a one or two week delay, before the next lesson.

Concerning the poor glide ratio, it was easy to simulate a higher-performance glider, by keeping the engine running at a low power setting.

Like the US, their aviation authority presumes to license gliding, while knowing absolutely bugger all about it.Mary,

While TC issues the licences (and instructor ratings) upon receipt of the appropriate forms and money, the SAC administers all ab-initio and instructor training, by delegating authority to the CFIs of its member clubs and by running regional instructor courses. So it's pretty much the same as the BGA.

[mary meagher]

So Canada is a bit more sensible than the FAA, which requires no cross country flying to qualify for becoming a gliding instructor! At least the Canadian authority has the sense to delegate to those who have some understanding of the art.

But I do think the tandem arrangement of the two seats in a training glider has advantages. No blind spots for the student, clear lookout both ways. And when he starts flying on his own, solo in the training machine, or in a single seat glider, it is both natural and familiar to be centered. A penalty in performance is paid by any twoseat arrangement side by side, just too broad to slide nicely through the air! Soaring a Falke? better find some pretty strong thermals! And keeping the engine running is CHEATING! that's not gliding! go on, man up, turn it off!

I did fly once with the old master himself, Derrick Piggot, in the Falke from Lasham.... he was very keen on motor glider training. He is still flying, had a check ride at our club this summer to fly his classic glider up the wire....our instructor was really on her mettle doing that check ride, you bet!
He's still supreme.

[Fantome]

Last September-October Old mate flew his Falke from Tasmania to Burketown up on the Gulf of Carpentaria for the fifth year running

it's about a 7000 kms return trip for him. Up there on successive days he has contacted
the long annular bore cloud they call The Morning Glory . You take off at first light and by lunch time you are ready to drop off . Have a feed and a kip.
As you run along in front of it , often the lift is so strong you have to keep pulling her up not to go through the red line

surfing that cloud has to be one of gliding's greatest euphorias imaginable

in the Falke or the Dimona or the Ximango or the Stemme it's so good to be able
to share the side by side with another enthusiast or someone having their first taste

(that's why Nat Puffer finally got Burt Rutan to agree to Nat building the side by side Varieze , ,,. . The Cozy)

There's space available this year in a Dimona for The Glory . . .. . PM for more info

http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/img/news/2009/morning%20glory%20ribeiro.jpg (http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/events/department-news/621/morning-glory-clouds/)


http://www.gosoaring.com.au/photo%20gallery%20images/MG07/bayley.jpg (http://www.gosoaring.com.au/Morning%20Glory%2007.html)

[India Four Two]

And keeping the engine running is CHEATING! that's not gliding! go on, man up, turn it off!Mary,
It wasn't about cheating - it was about teaching people how to plan a circuit in a 35:1 glider. :)

Fantome,

I might take you up on that if I'm down that way. I've always wanted to soar on the Morning Glory, ever since I first read about it.

7000 km in a Falke - the mind boggles. The longest trip I did was Cold Lake to Calgary (240 nm) and that was mind- and bum-numbing. I managed to speed it up by dolphining and increased my ground speed by 15kts.

[cats_five]

1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better optionI should add that at my club you have to get your Bronze (PPL equivalent) before training to fly a Falke as PIC.

[Ridger]

Thankfully the OP is a CPL and FI so will just need the differences training to fly a Falke.

[worrab]

will just need the differences training to fly a Falke.

With an EASA licence it's a class rating with ATO training and a skill test.

[cats_five]

Thankfully the OP is a CPL and FI so will just need the differences training to fly a Falke.



My club for one won't allow him to just do differences in a Falke. We have plenty of PPLs etc. and they are required to do 10 hours a year in a glider as we are (at present) a gliding club, not a motor glider, microlight or other kind of club.

[mary meagher]

A Falke is NOT a glider, it is a motor glider. It makes an irritating noise that interferes with conversation. ( I wonder if the chap who did the long Falke flight along the Morning Glory turned off his engine? hope so!) It smells. It carries avgas in a tank somewhere it can spill over the whole arrangement if it goes splat. And sometimes on taking off, even with a very very experienced person in charge, the engine has been known to stop. which if there is not very much room to land ahead, you enjoy the experience of EFAT....

In a glider, this is known as a launch failure. The winch cable breaks, the winch engine suffers indigestion or the tug dumps you.

You have trained for this eventuality, over and over, BEFORE you go solo in a glider. At 30 feet, at 150 feet, at 300 feet, etc etc. And it is REAL.

It is the PERFORMANCE OF THE GLIDER that you use in this case to get yourself on the ground nicely enough to use the glider again. Meanwhile the guy in the spam can or the motor glider if he is well practiced in the real EFAT, will of course immediately land wherever. Won't he? or will he be trying to restart his engine? or return to the airfield, using the impossible turn?

Confess, you Falke fliers, do you turn it off or don't you?

[worrab]

I think there is consensus that the Falke is not the world's best glider - indeed that motor gliders in general need a pretty good lift day to go any distance sans moteur. On the other hand, as compromises go they have a lot to commend them. Low operating costs compared to most other forms of flying, great touring capability and some nice handling usually feature.

I'm not sure whether EFATO in a TMG is worse than a cable-break; there's certainly more time to think than in yer average SEP. Whether to land ahead, land away or attempt the impossible turn are all options in any aircraft. The outcome must surely be significantly down to currency and training which hopefully will - to use the vernacular - inform the decision-making process.

[Ellie Vater]

Been away for a couple of days, so first chance to look at thread. Thank you all very much for your opinions and advice, some really interesting replies, which have given me food for thought.

I think I'll book a trial lesson initially, (although I understand now why they are elevated in price, but it will give me a good chance to assess the club before continuing). Also, as suggested by some, I will also endeavour to try both traditional and motor gliding.

Can I ask one more question? The human body requires supplemental oxygen around 10,000 feet - how can you soar to 20,000 feet plus, and remain conscious? (assuming no OX2 or pressurisation).

Thanks once again :ok:

[RatherBeFlying]

Here in Canada I needle folks that you can get your Glider licence without ever talking with ATC:\

Now I've seen instructor courses with a number of candidates without so much as a Silver Badge:uhoh:

[India Four Two]

how can you soar to 20,000 feet plus, and remain conscious? (assuming no OX2 or pressurisation).

You can't.

All high altitude glider flights use supplemental oxygen, typically nasal cannulas from about 12,000' up to about 20,000' and oxygen masks with diluter demand, pressure-breathing regulators above that.

[davydine]

It may be worth adding that some clubs include 3 months membership in the price of a trial flight, so you can enjoy some flying at club rates before you have to pay for a full years membership.

As a guide my local club offers trial lessons for £75 which would include two winch launches. The same two 10 minute winch launch flights would cost about £28 in total at club rates.

Definitely mention your experience. There are different levels of instructor. Someone will correct me, but I believe that basic instructors are not allowed to give the pupil control below 500ft and that isn't what you want!

[Ridger]

Someone will correct me, but I believe that basic instructors are not allowed to give the pupil control below 500ft and that isn't what you want! No need to correct you as you are correct on both counts!

[thing]

What finally worked for me, was to look at the front, fixed end of the yaw string and treat it as if it was a slip ball i.e. push it back to the centre-line with the appropriate rudder pedal. I always think 'foot into the gap' ie put a boot into the biggest hole.

Give gliding a go, it has it's frustrations but for one the view is magnificent, a quantum leap above what you will be used to and it requires more pure flying skills than powered. Think of sailing a yacht and driving a powerboat.

I would add the caveat that personalities are important at gliding clubs. At a powered club you spend (unless you choose to) far less time with the membership whereas at a GC you may be spending all day with someone that you wouldn't urinate on if they were combusting. It can try your patience at times as any club of any pastime will have the 'club fathers' who reign by divine right. Mind you, I've been a member of a powered club that was just the same.

[Pace]

One question from me :) How do glider pilots keep warm on high altitude flights ?
Are there heaters? Surely at altitudes of even 10K to 20K the OAT could be minus 20 or less and sitting stationery for hours surely it would get pretty chilly?
Or is there different dress sense for the levels you will fly at ?

Pace

[thing]

Sitting beneath a wrap round piece of perspex has it's benefits but you need to dress for it. I did my silver duration (five hours minimum flight, and I've never figured out what that is supposed to prove other than the limits of your bladder) on a scorching hot day in August many years ago and by the time I landed I was like a block of ice. Hadn't gone that high either.

[Piper.Classique]

Five hours.....
Proves that you can stay focused, and make a safe landing when tired, normally at your home site. At least that's the story I got. Makes some sense, or at least it did in the past where low performance gliders landed out rather more often than we now seem to, and a 300km triangle could last six or seven hours.

I don't think mine proved anything more than inbuilt stubborness, as I did it on a ridge in an elderly glider with an open cockpit in a howling gale. Low cloud base, rain showers, didn't really enjoy it at the time. Ended up flying over six hours waiting for the wind to drop enough to make a safe circuit. Still, it doubled my solo time on gliders for the price of one bungy launch.

Mary, I'm a Falke flyer some of the time. Makes sense in a small club midweek. I turn the engine off as soon as we are going up halfway decently, because to get an old small engine Falke to go up at any decent rate off climb needs a thermal, which is prolly better than the engine anyway.

[Heady1977]

Pace - I had noticed that nobody had answered your question.

I'm not an expert; my experience of such matters is limited to a fortnight of gliding over the last three years in the Pyrenees mountains in Spain with a dozen or so flights of 3hrs duration up to an altitude of 13,000ft using mountain wave.

Surely at altitudes of even 10K to 20K the OAT could be minus 20 or less and sitting stationery for hours surely it would get pretty chilly?Yes - it can be very very chilly at altitude - even at ground level - it may be cold enough to maintain snow.

Flying at altitude - most people find that feet & hands are the first parts of the body to get cold and numb.

How do glider pilots keep warm on high altitude flights ?

Solar radiation

Some gliders have an extended canopy that makes sure that the sun reaches everywhere from the feet to the head. Also best to wear dark colours. You will be amazed at how hot it can be sitting in what is effectively a greenhouse. Although, with typically less than 1cm between flesh and atmosphere - the top may be warm enough - but the rear can be cold...


Blankets

Quite a few of the female pilots I know carry a blanket which they can put over them when they start feeling the cold. Mary.M has also said as much in a previous post somewhere on this site. I don't know many male pilots that admit to carrying blankets. Although, I know of at least one that carries a blanket "just in case he has to sleep in the glider waiting for a retrieve" - he won't admit to using it in flight though.


Jackets/Suits

There are custom designed suits for gliding/paragliding etc... that are designed for easy movement in confined spaces in sub-zero temperatures with the ability to unzip various parts.
Clothing, gloves and boots for glider pilots, paragliders, hang gliders (http://www.ozee.co.uk/shop#!/Flying-Suits/c/506008/offset=0&sort=normal)


Heated Motorcycle Clothing

For the very serious - kitting oneself out with heated glove inserts or heated socks or heated jackets from the motorcycle shops. Some of the motocycle gear now is extremely light, flexible, and can be powered by small portable batteries for very reasonable amounts of time.
7V heated products - Gerbing: Leading in Heated Clothing (http://www.gerbing.eu/en/products/7v-products)
However, heated clothing does divide people at the club bar where there are those that think heated clothing is the next sliced bread and those that like pointing out the virtues of Li-ion batteries and their ability to combust when impacted and therefore, Li-ion batteries should be banned. I've always considered that if any of my Li-ion batteries are impacted enough to ignite - I'll be in a whole heap of pain and Li-ion batteries will be the least of my worries. However, the RC model flyers have flame-proof Li-ion battery bags - and having Li-ion batteries in locations easy to reach and easy to jettison I believe should be enough.

Are there heaters?The glider doesn't come with a heater in the same way a SEP or Microlight may have. I've only heard about heated clothing.

Or is there different dress sense for the levels you will fly at ?If your not into heated clothing - there is the standard trick of multiple layers. Typically - it is hottest while waiting on the ground with the canopy closed for the aerotow to start. The trick is to have an idea what the temperature should be at the altitude your expecting to fly at. Glider pilots will have that info from the morning briefing anyway from the daily sounding charts. You put on as many layers as you believe is necessary and have as many layers with front zips as possible with maybe a few layers with zip-on sleeves etc... You sit on appropriate impact foam and parachute to insulate the body from the glider fuselage. Then as you climb - you start doing up the zips one layer at a time etc... This is manageable as in wave at high altitude its as smooth as silk and you can loosen the straps enough to do this.

Hope this helps.

[mary meagher]

Best way to keep warm in a glider in the winter is to fly the tug instead!
(which has a nice heater)....

But seriously, I did the altitude flying at Aboyne over 3 seasons....and never got that uncomfortable, didn't stay up all that long, and was lucky in having sunshine available. Though flying back and forth along the higher wave bar, found it interesting that one side of the glider canopy iced up completely, the other side was getting all the sun so viz was fine on the left side but rather doubtful on the right. A banana in the cockpit pocket (lunch) froze solid.

The year before, was swanning about at 15,000 or so, and because the glider had stayed out overnight and the wingtape got wet, the ailerons wouldn't move, they were frozen. So did very careful turns with the rudder alone, eventually descending to warmer levels.

The diamond gain of height to 20,300 was enough of the upper levels for me, I get nervous having to depend on oxygen systems. For cross country flying, especially in competitions, one tends to work the height band of thermals between 2,000' and 5,000', using cloud streets if possible. Temperatures are quite comfortable at these levels....and the baby blanket is handy if it does get chilly. Flying in the winter is OK especially if there is sunshine.

But standing around on a windy airfield in winter can get very very cold if you are not properly dressed.

[India Four Two]

I generally found the cockpit temperature not too bad at altitude, due to the greenhouse effect of the canopy, although I was wearing multiple layers of warm clothing.

The big issue was feet getting cold, since they were in the (leaky) nose cone. I solved that by wearing Arctic boots, although you have to check that they don't cause rudder-pedal obstructions.

One of the unforeseen issues of wave flying in the summer is trying not to sweat too much while waiting to launch. Nothing worse than frozen sweaty clothes. Delay putting on the layers until the last minute.

[phiggsbroadband]

.
As for freezing feet in wooden gliders, I found that duct-taping the aero-tow hole stopped that flow of cold air onto your muddy wellies...
Fibre-glass gliders are a bit better sealed.

[CISTRS]

But sod's law states that your ginormous gain of height comes off a winch launch in tee shirt and shorts, and no barograph....

Similarly, when you tog up for altitude, you beat the tug back to the field.

[Fitter2]

It's remarkable at altitude how the cockpit temperature goes from being comfortably (or even uncomfortably) warm in sunshine to :mad:cold in cloud shadow. Electric insoles inside moonboots are very effective, a 1 minute burst every 15 or so keeps feet warm.

The coldest glider I found was the SHK, with quite a small canopy for sun-warmth and a very thin non-structural fibreglass nose. That was a foot-freezer at 18,000ft. Thermal underwear with layers are (as has been said earlier) the way to go.

As a lifetime non-smoker I have always been OK up to 14,000ft or so without supplementary oxygen, and higher on short rapid climb and descent; flying in Spouth Africa all day at 10K to 16K an EDS system means I don't get a headache after flying (and increases the alcohol liimit).

[Opsbeatch]

Always the way CISTRS! Went for a quick trip on lunchtime up on the ridge in shorts and t-shirt, ended up coming down about 4 hours later after getting into wave. Well, you're not going to not use it are you! :ok:

OB

[RatherBeFlying]

Yes, I'm in the habit of excess clothing on the ground. But there can be days when it's still hot in the air.

That's when you tuck under a cu for the shade;)