A320 Relight after Failure

[MD83FO]

Hello, At my previous company the recommendation was to not relight an engine even with no indicated damage as the FADEC "knows better" and shuts the engine down for a reason.
I have never relit and engine in the sim, what is the correct moment to do it in the ECAM sequence and does your company encourage it.

thanks and happy new year.

[Superpilot]

At last airline, a freelance sim instructor mentioned two trends amongst Airbus operators. Increasing numbers now preach the below:

#1 - Don't attempt relight because "it shut down for a good reason" as you say (personally I'm not so sure)

#2 - Forget pushing to level off at EO ACCN ALT. Continue climb to initial cleared altitude/MSA then clean up and accelerate.

See this video for an example of how a relight can be done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4riBeS7GEk

[Metro man]

We train to attempt a relight if there are no signs of damage, such as fire, seizure or vibration. It may be a simple flame out, though I'm not sure I'd still want to continue to destination.

For engine out acceleration we would level off and clean up once the engine was secured. We have a standard procedure and some airports have a special E/O routing due to terrain. With the special procedure level off is only done once established on the escape route.

[MD80rookie]

Try to relight if conditions permit, always more relaxed to land with two engines spinning. If damage, fire, smoke, vibrations, or something else tells you not to, don't restart.
The FADEC knows a lot but not everything.

[lomapaseo]

The FADEC knows a lot but not everything.

agree

it may tell on you but it's not there to punish you if you need it

lots of data over 50 years that engines can still run enough to generate hydraulics and electricity even with damage.

If you want to save the engine, that's your decision, but your aircraft is a lot more important.

The decision making is a lot easier in this regard when you've got at least one good engine still running. Things get a lot dicier when you got all sick engines and then you need to be careful dealing with one at a time.

[vilas]

MD83FO
Airbus recommends to start if there is no damage. FADEC knows is not very correct because FADEC doesn't shut down the engine on the other hand it tries auto relight. If you do not relight when you could and have bird ingestion on live engine in approach it could be embarrassing.You cannot continue to cleared altitude because there is 10mts. time limit. On RTOW chart there is minimum and maximum acceleration altitude which is based on ten minutes time limit. You need to level off after engine is secured and clean up. Continue ECAM and when you reach STATUS attempt engine relight. However You should land back and not continue as it could fail again in more critical phase.

[Superpilot]

You cannot continue to cleared altitude because there is 10mts. time limit.

If cleared altitude is at or below 4,000ft you're of course going to make it before 10 mins and why do you assume use of TOGA? You most certainly are allowed to climb for as long as you want and can with MCT. Application of TOGA is a choice and is there to help you deal with situations where an unexpected performance penalty arises. The single engine performance of the aircraft is taken care off without the application of TOGA. I believe this thing where acceleration and cleanup are delayed is also Airbus approved.

There are many different operating techniques out there. Not a case of wrong and right. A lot of us think our company SOPs are the only approved ones.

[tdracer]

Is "auto-relight" (or whatever Airbus calls it) basic on all A320s? It's basic on the 777, 787, and 747-8, but not on some of the other engine/aircraft combinations (on the 787, 747-8, and some 777s they even got rid of continuous ignition - auto-relight was certified as being just as effective). As an example, auto-relight was basic on the 747-400/CF6, but an option on PW4000.
Auto-relight will normally restart an engine due to a simple flameout, although it's not 100%. At least on Boeing, cycling the fuel switch will cause the FADEC to 'reset' (on rare occasion, the FADEC can get the equivalent of the a PC 'blue screen of death' - a simple reset will clear it and it can once again control the engine). Cycling the fuel switch should also cause the FADEC to switch channel in control - sometimes there are undetected faults in the channel controlling the engine - cycling the fuel switch gives the other channel a chance even if the first channel still thinks it's healthy.)
I've worked FADEC for 25+ years - they are smart, but not that smart (the very first generation of FADEC only had the equivalent of 24k of memory :eek:). On a twin I'd suggest a relight attempt if there is no evidence of damage.

[Metro man]

If you take off with a FLEX TEMP you will still meet the performance requirements. Company policy may call for TOGA or it may be used if the aircraft isn't performing as expected.

[sonicbum]

Hello, At my previous company the recommendation was to not relight an engine even with no indicated damage as the FADEC "knows better" and shuts the engine down for a reason.
I have never relit and engine in the sim, what is the correct moment to do it in the ECAM sequence and does your company encourage it.

thanks and happy new year.

Hi, Airbus recommends to restart the engine when reaching the Status page.

Happy new year

P.s. Sorry vilas already replied haven't seen it

[vilas]

Perormance certification trials are done by test pilot who had a good nights sleep and didn't have to get up at 3 o'clock in the morning. It ensures obstacle clearence by 35 feet. If you are comfortable with this then don't use TOGA but I suggest we should give ourselves a chance.

[sonicbum]

Perormance certification trials are done by test pilot who had a good nights sleep and didn't have to get up at 3 o'clock in the morning. It ensures obstacle clearence by 35 feet. If you are comfortable with this then don't use TOGA but I suggest we should give ourselves a chance.

Big quote :D

[vilas]

Superpilot
Even flex thrust is take off thrust and has same limitations. You select MCT only after clean up when you have resumed climb. So you cannot have have procedures that differ for each take off.

[Metro man]

A sudden application of TOGA may not be such a good idea at low speed, if you have taken off in FLEX your speeds are based on this power setting. It would be good practice to ensure you have control and won't be destabilised by a sudden increase in asymmetric power.

We use FLEX for take off and would first look for a positive rate of climb, raise the gear and apply TOGA in that order, in the event of an engine failure. By this stage you should have directional control sorted out and would only need a small increase in rudder, and be able to stay within drift limits.

[vilas]

Metro
What you said is the correct procedure.

[mono]

I'm a little confused with the OP here.

The situation may be different on newer generation aircraft, but on the A320 series, the only time FADEC will shut down an engine is during ground auto-start. In flight, FADEC will NEVER shut down an engine. It may, under certain failure conditions, command idle and there are some faults (not directly FADEC related) that may cause a flame-out but the decision to actually shut down an engine rests entirely with the pilots not the FADEC system.

As for whether to re-light? Follow your company/Airbus SOP.

[vilas]

Where is the confusion?

[peekay4]

A sudden application of TOGA may not be such a good idea at low speed, if you have taken off in FLEX your speeds are based on this power setting. It would be good practice to ensure you have control and won't be destabilised by a sudden increase in asymmetric power.
Actually FLEX speeds are computed such that you can apply TOGA at any time. Or to be more precise, the speeds are calculated referencing the max available thrust, which is TOGA. By electing FLEX you simply take longer to reach those speeds.

While not replacing good airmanship, when on FLEX takeoff you can keep in mind that TOGA is available to you at all times, in case you need it. Some hesitation (can I go TOGA?) while everything else looks good can be critical.

This is actually the largest operational difference between a FLEX takeoff and a DERATED takeoff. In a Derated takeoff, the v-speeds are calculated to the Derated thrust only. So if there's an engine loss, control can only be assured at this lower thrust. Hence in a Derated takeoff, it's not allowable to regain the original full-rated TOGA thrust.

[Roj approved]

I think most folks, in the Sim, go and shut it down rather than re light because the next sequence is a OEI Go around/landing.

It then sets up the philosophy that it "failed for a reason" so we all start to think that way.

In the real world, Fly the a/c, if vibration is reducing performance, shut it down, otherwise leave it alone until at ACCEL HT/MSA then sort it out, that's my theory anyway.

[Superpilot]

villas,

I'm not sure what you mean. You are justifying your stance based on the supposed need to have a consistent procedure for the two takeoff power settings?

roj.

Not sure about that. Like I said above, a freelance trainer (who gets to read and practice the SOPs of many different airlines) stated this was a growing trend. If I'm not mistaken he said it was the standard practice now at EasyJet, Wizz and BA. Any folk from either of these airlines care to confirm?

[TyroPicard]

superpilot
You may be thinking of OEI G/A? I know that easyJet climb all the way to MAP altitude before accelerating, but in the EFTO case they accelerate once the engine is secure, at or above OEI ACC ALT.

[Goldenrivett]

superpilot,
I agree with TyroPicard.
Do you bother to calculate an EO AA before departure?
How do you calculate your AA on the GA with PANS OPS 4 information?

[Superpilot]

You could be right guys. If I'm in a sim with him again, I'll get clarification.

Edit: Actually, I recall another instance where I heard this. After a sim check I did in 2010, I recall being debriefed about this exact thing. I was asked why I didn't just climb to initial SID altitude for my EFATO and go around before accelerating. I then had to explain to the examiner that he's way (delaying acceleration) was new to me. He was from First Choice.

[vilas]

Superpilot
What I said is every take off has different initial cleared altitude. It does not govern the OEI acceleration. RTOW charts show minimum and maximum acceleration altitudes. You have to accelerate within this otherwise you will exceed ten minutes time limit on take off thrust. You cannot select MCT before you clean up otherwise the climb will be poor and even acceleration to GD. This may compromise obstacle clearance. You are mistaking it with OEI GA altitude. OEI acceleration altitude is not applicable to GA. Many airlines climb to MSA during GA.

[Willie Nelson]

In my organisation, we do the initial actions of ECAM and when STATUS comes up we: S.C.O.R.R.E. as a suggested management method (not SOPS as such)

"Stop ECAM", Checklists, OEB's (not many left thankfully) Resets and Relights. (continue) "Ecam actions"

There are many things to consider with relation to a relight, nevertheless, should you have the option for an immediate return at least in VMC, I might suggest that generally speaking, by the time you got the engine relit you may have otherwise safely taxied off the runway on one engine thereby reducing the greater risk.

Always PIC choice.